Fatal Shooting with Uzi
- Thread starter skizzums
- Start date
Last month when I introduced my 15 year old daughter to semi auto pistols,my greatest fear was that she would loose control and fire multiple unintentional rounds.
As was noted in a prior post -
I started her on each pistol, one round, two round then 3 round and only then full magazine.
First the 9MM then the 45.
I am not a trained instructor. Still, the weapon escaping her control and firing multiple undirected rounds was hard on my mind.
My heart goes out to all.
As was noted in a prior post -
I started her on each pistol, one round, two round then 3 round and only then full magazine.
First the 9MM then the 45.
I am not a trained instructor. Still, the weapon escaping her control and firing multiple undirected rounds was hard on my mind.
My heart goes out to all.
SPEMack618
New member
FrankenMauser said:
I would add that the quality of the training and trainer also matters. heavily.
The above discussions would have been rendered mute had the deceased not given the little girl an Uzi without instructing her as to what happens when you shoot a small SMG.
While I am not for laws telling parents what kind of firearms they can/cannot shoot while being properly supervised, I am having a hard time wondering why anyone would let an 9 year old girl who seemed very inexperienced at shooting anything, to fire a full-auto UZI.
For the record, I have a full-auto AC556 and wouldn't even consider letting my 11 year old daughter shoot it. She has fired both .22LR and .22 magnum from bolt action rifles since she was 9, but that's the limit of her experience.
The AC556 fires from a closed bolt and still has some muzzle rise and takes a firm grip to control. The UZI (and, yes, it was an UZI) fires from an open bolt which means that a large block of solid tool steel will be cycling back and forth in an unbuffered, un-compensated, pistol-length barrel gun. I personally can't see letting a 9 year old fire a full-auto short-barreled UZI. The fact that the parents were taking a video seems more like this was some kind of bragging-rights photo-op for the parents than it was an instructional event for the child.
For the record, I have a full-auto AC556 and wouldn't even consider letting my 11 year old daughter shoot it. She has fired both .22LR and .22 magnum from bolt action rifles since she was 9, but that's the limit of her experience.
The AC556 fires from a closed bolt and still has some muzzle rise and takes a firm grip to control. The UZI (and, yes, it was an UZI) fires from an open bolt which means that a large block of solid tool steel will be cycling back and forth in an unbuffered, un-compensated, pistol-length barrel gun. I personally can't see letting a 9 year old fire a full-auto short-barreled UZI. The fact that the parents were taking a video seems more like this was some kind of bragging-rights photo-op for the parents than it was an instructional event for the child.
Jack_Bauer24
New member
It's stupidity for a 9yr. old to be shooting a select fire gun like that period, no matter instructor or not. That gun like all the other select fire and autos were not designed to be handled by 9yr. olds. It's like putting them be hind the wheel of a F1 or NASCAR race car at over 150 mph, not a good idea. They should stick to .22's until they are old and mature enough to handle such guns.
rabbitslayer
Inactive
I was going to state my opinion.. but Jack states my opinion exactly
A close friend of mine used to own a Class 3 M-11 and let a girl he was dating fire it full auto. The same thing happened and she was 22 YO or so. Thankfully no one was hurt.
However, this incident was ridiculously negligent. A nice guy is dead, a little girl is traumatized and the antis will feed on this like jackals.
However, this incident was ridiculously negligent. A nice guy is dead, a little girl is traumatized and the antis will feed on this like jackals.
Jack Bauer says what I would want to say also.
I'd add only that we limit at what ages a kid can buy various types of weapons, no reason we can't also limit at what ages kids can use certain weapons. It doesn't wound the second amendment to keep FA weapons out of the hands of minors.
I'd add only that we limit at what ages a kid can buy various types of weapons, no reason we can't also limit at what ages kids can use certain weapons. It doesn't wound the second amendment to keep FA weapons out of the hands of minors.
Two quick comments:
First, I'm to sure I would have used the term "gem" in the OP.
Second, FAs are more dangerous (difficult) to shoot safely than semi and single shots just as jet fighters are more dangerous (difficult) to fly that an ultralight. Not everyone will be able to master the skills required and age is part of the equation.
First, I'm to sure I would have used the term "gem" in the OP.
Second, FAs are more dangerous (difficult) to shoot safely than semi and single shots just as jet fighters are more dangerous (difficult) to fly that an ultralight. Not everyone will be able to master the skills required and age is part of the equation.
Let me ask a simple question here. How many so vehemently against it, are full auto shooters/owners?
Whats your experience level? How did you learn to shoot, FA and everything else and and at what age?
If you have no real experience, and by that, I mean, you understand the guns and how they work and shoot, and how to properly shoot them, and can pick one up and safely make it run and hit what youre shooting at, how can you really have an opinion?
Oh, wait, silly me, this is the internet, what was i thinking?
Seriously though, what are you basing your opinions on here?
As far as the truck and driving thing, perhaps its an indication of your age/generation and differences in how different age groups were brought up, and the responsibilities they were given. I grew up in the 50's and 60's. We still did lots of chores, and were given "a lot" of responsibility at a very young age. By the time my kids were born, they were already pretty well into the nanny state, and these days, things we allowed our kids to do as kids, will et you arrested for negligence. My parents, would be tried as Hitler for their deeds.
I learned to shoot are age 4. I shot my first machine gun at 8. It was a USGI M3, and I was hooked from the first mag. When we were 9 or 10, we were walking around, plinking and hunting with our .22's, having a grand old time.
I cant ever remember hearing any of the problems were having today with kids and guns, and were were always with a gun, even at school when we were old enough to drive.
I started driving at 9 or 10 too. I actually drove for the first time, in my dads lap, around 5 or so, or so Im told. I do remember doing that quite regularly growing up as well. My kids got the same treatment growing up too, cars and guns. They also had a bunch of chores, and as much responsibility as we felt we could pile on. Guess what? They grew up fine, and are better for it.
Teach your kids to shoot. Teach them well, and with everything you can get your hands on. Do the same yourself if you lack those skills. You will both learn something, benefit greatly from it, and have fun doing it. You will also "possibly" help this country continue to be the what it once was, but thats really looking very bleak these days.
Even more so, when "gun people" argue against teaching anyone, anything, gun related.
Whats your experience level? How did you learn to shoot, FA and everything else and and at what age?
If you have no real experience, and by that, I mean, you understand the guns and how they work and shoot, and how to properly shoot them, and can pick one up and safely make it run and hit what youre shooting at, how can you really have an opinion?
Oh, wait, silly me, this is the internet, what was i thinking?
Seriously though, what are you basing your opinions on here?
As far as the truck and driving thing, perhaps its an indication of your age/generation and differences in how different age groups were brought up, and the responsibilities they were given. I grew up in the 50's and 60's. We still did lots of chores, and were given "a lot" of responsibility at a very young age. By the time my kids were born, they were already pretty well into the nanny state, and these days, things we allowed our kids to do as kids, will et you arrested for negligence. My parents, would be tried as Hitler for their deeds.
I learned to shoot are age 4. I shot my first machine gun at 8. It was a USGI M3, and I was hooked from the first mag. When we were 9 or 10, we were walking around, plinking and hunting with our .22's, having a grand old time.
I cant ever remember hearing any of the problems were having today with kids and guns, and were were always with a gun, even at school when we were old enough to drive.
I started driving at 9 or 10 too. I actually drove for the first time, in my dads lap, around 5 or so, or so Im told. I do remember doing that quite regularly growing up as well. My kids got the same treatment growing up too, cars and guns. They also had a bunch of chores, and as much responsibility as we felt we could pile on. Guess what? They grew up fine, and are better for it.
Teach your kids to shoot. Teach them well, and with everything you can get your hands on. Do the same yourself if you lack those skills. You will both learn something, benefit greatly from it, and have fun doing it. You will also "possibly" help this country continue to be the what it once was, but thats really looking very bleak these days.
Even more so, when "gun people" argue against teaching anyone, anything, gun related.
Gary L. Griffiths
New member
More than 20 years Army experience, qualified with M-16 in basic, qualified with Mini-Uzi for protective services missions. Probably fired ~ 5,000 rds full-auto. 
AK103K, I have three kids that all were 9 at one point or another, and I have been around plenty of other 9 year old kids. That is all the experience I need to say unequivocally that is is inappropriate / inadvisable / inexcusable to put a 9 year old kid in the situation this poor girl was put in.
9 year-olds and full auto weapons are a bad combination.
9 year-olds and full auto weapons are a bad combination.
As most have stated it is negligence pure and simple. Whatever happened to the day when the first real gun that a child had was a .22 single shot rifle that they cut their teeth on until they learned how to use it safely and accurately. This was the way it was when I was a kid growing up in the sixties. That kid only used that rifle under the supervision of his (sometimes a girl but not as prevalent) parent, uncle or grandfather. Once proficient they were then allowed to take that rifle into the woods to hunt squirrels or rabbits.
It was after that that they moved up to multi shot .22 firearms, perhaps a shotgun or if they want to go deer hunting a centerfire rifle.
There are some full grown adults that cannot handle a full auto gun so I fail to see how it's a good idea to hand one to a 70 lb 9 year old girl. I wonder how much experience this girl had with firearms of any kind before she shot the Uzi. My condolences go out to the family of the man who died.
It was after that that they moved up to multi shot .22 firearms, perhaps a shotgun or if they want to go deer hunting a centerfire rifle.
There are some full grown adults that cannot handle a full auto gun so I fail to see how it's a good idea to hand one to a 70 lb 9 year old girl. I wonder how much experience this girl had with firearms of any kind before she shot the Uzi. My condolences go out to the family of the man who died.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Excuse me? Are you able to quote an example, in this thread, in which someone makes that argument? If not, it's something of a straw man.AK103K said:
And youre basing this on what full auto experience with kids?
Ive been around plenty of 9 year olds too, and taught a number of them to shoot full auto firearms over the years as well, and never once had an issue. I pretty much always followed 4V50 Gary's method, and with excellent results.
Both my boys were 5 when they first shot my MP5, and by the time they did shoot it, were already well versed in shooting their .22's from field positions, were well versed in safety, and asked me to try it. I didnt force it on them, Id never do that, nor would I let them shoot something I didnt think they could handle. The MP5 is a ***** cat. They didnt shoot a MAC until they were around 9, simply because didnt think it was the right gun for them until then. When they did shoot it, they had no troubles what so ever, and did quite well with it, as challenging as they can be to shoot for some. By then, they had a number of open bolt SMG's under their belts as well, and were quite good with them.
I fully understand everyone is their own person and kids grow, both physically and mentally at their own rate. Some of that is controlled by them, some by how they are taught, and how well they handle responsibility. Im a firm believer in starting responsibility as young as reasonably possible, and by doing so, you come out way ahead on down the road.
One thing I have noticed with some friends and acquaintances kids is, the reason their kids are/were the way they are, is because its how they are being raised. As far as Im concerned, theres no excuse for the way they act, and the problem is squarely on their parents shoulders. Ill also say right now, I would not put a gun of any type, in the hands of those kids, and in most cases, their parents either.
Contrary to what some would have you believe, we dont all just hand anyone, something they have no business shooting, but to understand that, you also need to have experience and familiarity with the gun, and with people to know. Its not at all hard to tell either, and to be truthful, kids and women are usually the best students.
"I'm sorry, nine years old is just too young to fire a full auto weapon."
"Who gives a Nine Year Old an automatic weapon?"
"Well, I do believe it's ill-advised to the point of terminal lunacy
to hand a 8-9 year old a fully-automatic weapon. For reasons
too numerous to count. Put me in the negative camp."
"Why would anyone think that handing a full auto weapon to a small child would be a good idea? "
Sounds like a number here are arguing its a bad idea to teach someone something gun related.
I guess some would say the same about "any" gun as well.
The truck analogy really doesnt fly here.
AK103K - I trained as an instructor including SMG instructor. One thing I do is to ensure that I as an instructor can communicate with the student. Hence we do a lot of classroom time covering safety first and then handling.
I want to ensure that my students understand me and they show they do when handling the empty firearm and articulating what they're doing. By the end of the classroom session, they know how to operate it before they even get to shoot it.
By the time we get to the range, that's when I go through the drill that was mentioned earlier. They're not scared/shy of the firearm and get to experience the recoil slowly. As their confidence and competence increases, then they get to shoot short bursts. Long bursts come last.
I want to ensure that my students understand me and they show they do when handling the empty firearm and articulating what they're doing. By the end of the classroom session, they know how to operate it before they even get to shoot it.
By the time we get to the range, that's when I go through the drill that was mentioned earlier. They're not scared/shy of the firearm and get to experience the recoil slowly. As their confidence and competence increases, then they get to shoot short bursts. Long bursts come last.
Machineguntony
New member
We can all agree to disagree. It's a healthy debate.
On yahoo, there are over 21,000 comments on this incident: https://gma.yahoo.com/9-old-girl-ac...nstructor-063706519--abc-news-topstories.html
People really are talking about this issue.
If you had any hope that Huges would one day be repealed or that the MG registry would reopen, our hopes are dashed. Huges was an ingenious piece of legislation and social engineering.
Machine guns are way too dangerous and unusual, as 'proven' by this incident.
On yahoo, there are over 21,000 comments on this incident: https://gma.yahoo.com/9-old-girl-ac...nstructor-063706519--abc-news-topstories.html
People really are talking about this issue.
If you had any hope that Huges would one day be repealed or that the MG registry would reopen, our hopes are dashed. Huges was an ingenious piece of legislation and social engineering.
Machine guns are way too dangerous and unusual, as 'proven' by this incident.