Fatal Shooting with Uzi

I had a rifle in my hands from as early as I can remember, a simple air rifle then .22 by age of 10, had it drummed into me which was the dangerous end and where to point it, a rifle heavy, cumbersome, bolt action thought has to be given to shot placement.An Uzi ?? Wow in the hands of a kid, training, trained or not, full auto, light, the dangerous end! where it ends up when things go even slightly wrong, have they developed enough respect for what there holding, have they grasped the concept of consequence of what can happen.... This problem lies in the puffed chests and egos of the people putting a dangerous weapon in the hands of someone/anyone, be they 9 yrs old or 90yrs old, respect, understanding, consequence are core principles behind what can be a brilliant enjoyable sport, without it people die, literally it's all fun and games to a child I believe they need to be mature enough to have the respect and understanding let alone the physical attributes to control such a weapon, KIDS CAN HAVE PLENTY OF FUN SAFELY WITHOUT FULL AUTO, full auto in a child's hands I believe is more for the adults entertainment, ego and brag rights. Creating a dangerous situation for the wrong reasons.
 
The number of people opining on this topic who have never fired a machine pistol, let alone instructed someone else in how to do so, is amazing.

It's like listening to the anti-gun crowd talking about shoulder things that go up.
 
4V50 Gary said:
First step is to familiarize the shooter with the firearm. Muzzle control and finger off the trigger, insert empty magazine. Remove the same. Load magazine with one round. Cock. Fire. Remove the magazine.

Load the magazine with two rounds. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire one shot.
Load the magazine with two rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire a two shot burst.
Load the magazine with three rounds. Set on full. Cock. Fire one shot. Fire a two shot burst.
Repeat but with more bullets in magazine. Object is to get the user familiar with the recoil of the uzi.

Never ever give a full magazine to a novice and tell them go set on full auto and spray.
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In my opinion, the bolded parts also apply to introducing a new shooter to pistols.

You don't know how someone unfamiliar with shooting will respond to the noise and recoil or where the muzzle will be after the first shot, and they don't either.

If I am introducing someone to the activity, I owe them the benefit of my foresight and caution they can't possess. One also has to understand that someone new to an experience can only absorb so much information at one time, and one shouldn't expect much of it to sink in the first time out.

That's a sad video.
 
zukiphile said:
If I am introducing someone to the activity, I owe them the benefit of my foresight and caution they can't possess.
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That is very well-phrased and bears repeating.

With regard to shooting machine-pistols, there are things that people do on the range all the time (such as that upright-to-leaned-back beginner's stance) that, while they cause no harm to anything but your group size in semi-auto, could have serious consequences with a buzzgun.
 
The number of people opining on this topic who have never fired a machine pistol, let alone instructed someone else in how to do so, is amazing.

It's like listening to the anti-gun crowd talking about shoulder things that go up.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
When I heard it on the news this morning, I dismissed the anchor prattling about machine guns and continued shaving.

The lady friend yelled for me to watch it from the bed room when it looped again.

I can't fathom how that little girl must feel.

I was running the rifle range for the nursing program ROTC girls and one of them had an M-16A2, a frankengun really, run away on her, and she was real shaken up by it, and no one got hurt.

FA can be fun, heck it IS fun, but like every aspect of our passion, it has to be used correctly, and after proper instruction from qualified instructors.
 
A Gun Club which I compete at, a member gave a 9 year old girl a Mac 10 (45 ACP) to shoot. She could not control the thing and it climbed on her. The firing point is at the base of a rock quarry, must be a 100 yards to the top. One bullet cleared the backstop, sailed 1500 yards down range and hit a homeowner working on the roof of his house. The bullet slid for some distance went between the skin and the stomach, so luckily, the guy did not die. Cops came on site, confiscated everyone’s guns who were at the range. A lawsuit was pressed, don’t know what happened. I do know the range installed $100,000 of “range improvements” to reduce the risk of off axis bullets.

Gun ranges need to understand the liability of physically small children shooting fully automatic weapons.

If it is OK for small children to shoot fully automatic weapons, I guess it must be fine for them to drive semi tractor trailers. Or sit on the pilot’s seat of a helicopter. At Cave Creek AZ, a five year pushed the controls with her foot, everyone on board died. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20100214X92140
 
Folks, if you post and you see it is deleted - the appropriate response is to PM a moderator. Complaining about it on the forum isn't going to do you any good.

We restore posts after discussions. Telling us that we are no good and you are the true defender of the RKBA and guardian of the galaxy is fun venting but not the way to go.

If a post is not relevant or a rule breaker, it goes. I've been deleted at times, so what.
 
machineguntony said:
3. The instructor did not say something that is very important to tell inexperienced F/A shooters: "if you start to lose control of the gun, let go of the trigger, OK? OK? (wait for acknowledgement)."
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While that instruction makes sense, part of the logic of the progression laid out by 4v50 Gary is that it isn't reasonable to expect a new shooter to recognize when she needs to let go of the trigger, or even recognize what she is doing as she begins to lose control.

It's essentially the same reason I wouldn't have started her on a 1911 with a full magazine. (Edit - I also have never started anyone on a 1911, but that is a distinguishable issue.)
 
zukiphile said:
machineguntony said:
3. The instructor did not say something that is very important to tell inexperienced F/A shooters: "if you start to lose control of the gun, let go of the trigger, OK? OK? (wait for acknowledgement)."
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While that instruction makes sense, part of the logic of the progression laid out by 4v50 Gary is that it isn't reasonable to expect a new shooter to recognize when she needs to let go of the trigger, or even recognize what she is doing as she begins to lose control...
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And one also can't necessarily expect a beginner, especially a child, to be able to carry out that sort of instruction under stress. Panic response will often overrule reason.
 
Maybe I'm just too old to understand this.

Why would anyone think that handing a full auto weapon to a small child would be a good idea?

To me it makes as much sense as putting a 9 year old behind the wheel of a heavy duty manual shift truck in traffic.

An individual has to be at a certain level of physical/mental capability to perform some functions.

Isn't his common knowledge these days? :rolleyes:
 
I agree that reflex will overrule reason in a panic situation, but this is still something that has to be taught because some people just don't know what we perceive to be 'common sense'. Sometimes we take for granted what we know, an we assume that other people think the same as we do.
 
Please stop writing or saying that F/A is more dangerous than non F/A. That simply is not true.
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Sorry, but it IS true. A semi-auto won't have the issues of muzzle climb that a full-auto will. It's all well and good to teach a shooter to let go of the trigger if the gun starts to get away from him or her, but the instinctive reaction is to grasp the gun more tightly, thus keeping pressure on the trigger. Is there any doubt that this tragedy would have been orders-of-magnitude less likely to happen if the Uzi was set to semi-auto only?

The proper way to teach full-auto has already been mentioned; using magazines loaded with 3 and 5 rounds, progressing to a full magazine as the shooter becomes accustom to firing bursts. Even so, it is unrealistic to expect a small child to have the physical strength or fortitude to control a fully automatic weapon.
 
Don't get mad when others try to ban black guns because it is the gun's fault that people are getting accidentally shot. You're making essentially the same argument in favor of gun control that gun control proponents use.
 
skoro said:
Why would anyone think that handing a full auto weapon to a small child would be a good idea?

To me it makes as much sense as putting a 9 year old behind the wheel of a heavy duty manual shift truck in traffic.
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I think the driving analogy is apt.

I started driving when I was 10. It was all at low speed on back roads, and I still remember how thrilling it was even with lots of limits and close supervision. I think I was 13 by the time I was allowed onto a limited access highway and remember how fast 55mph seemed in the little VW.

By the time I was old enough for driver's ed, the instructor felt comfortable enough to just talk about politics and his business as we drove around, and not pay much obvious attention.

What I get from that isn't that it is wrong to give a nine or 10 year old any specific firearm or vehicle, but that we owe that child (or any adult for that matter) the supervision he needs to learn effectively, enjoy the experience and avoid tragedy.
 
You're making essentially the same argument in favor of gun control that gun control proponents use.
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Not the same thing, and you know it! :mad:

The fact that the 1934 National Firearms Act is Unconstitutional is the elephant in the room that the judicial system is trying desperately to ignore.

Your argument that full-auto weapons are no more dangerous to shoot than semi-autos is much more convenient for the antis to use in arguing to ban semi-autos. :eek:
 
Your bootstrapping fallacy is off.

You're also throwing your F/A brethren under the bus, just to save your semis. Lots of guys at trap and skeet clubs would be happy to tell you of the neverending dangers of semi auto black rifles. I personally think a semi auto AR is way more dangerous than a full auto AR. Let's ban those and make sure children stay away from those dangerous items.
 
I can't beleave this happened agin thats like leaving a kid in a hot car after its been all over the news for decades . My Kids and Grand Kids started shooting around 5 years old but with long guns . I have seen adults that cant seem to keep all thier body parts behind subgun's and hand guns full auto or not . It's all about practice and training and common sence .
 
Slamfire said:
If it is OK for small children to shoot fully automatic weapons, I guess it must be fine for them to drive semi tractor trailers. Or sit on the pilot’s seat of a helicopter. At Cave Creek AZ, a five year pushed the controls with her foot, everyone on board died. http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...20100214X92140
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That's the byproduct of inexperience, not age.

This incident was caused by a gunner that was allowed to sit in the copilot's seat during an unauthorized "morale" flight. As the helicopter came in for landing and started to flare, the pilot couldn't increase collective pitch (think of it as your "power") and tried to temporarily compensate by pitching the nose up to burn off the little bit of remaining forward speed, to buy some time to turn the bird so that he wouldn't crash into vehicles that were right off the nose. He was successful in not hitting the vehicles and bystanders...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4kAaTXU91U

The "official" report cites pilot error and loss of engine power for the crash, but the reality of the situation** is that the gunner leaned over to look out the window for landing, and rested his knee on the collective stick. So, just when they needed control the most, allowing the gunner's lack of experience in the cockpit turned out to be a near-fatal* misjudgement.
*(One of the crew members had an 18 inch long splinter of titanium rotor blade spar stuck in his crash helmet. An inch lower... and it would have entered his skull through his eye socket.)
**(Don't believe 90% of military aircraft crash reports. They rarely tell the real story.)


Training and skill matter - not age.
 
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