facing a violent mob when carrying, milwaukee state fair...
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youngunz4life
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sort of related interesting article
there was a longer version but I couldn't find it after-the-fact:
http://www.cbs58.com/news/local-new...e-Fair-gets-tased--127425483.html?skipthumb=Y
there was a longer version but I couldn't find it after-the-fact:
http://www.cbs58.com/news/local-new...e-Fair-gets-tased--127425483.html?skipthumb=Y
here is the timeline of events based on the 911 call log as published in this article:http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/...sconsin_state_fair_race_riot_hate_charges.php
Note that the first call went in at 22:49 and it wasn't until 23:55, over an hour later, that the responding officers at the scene realized they couldn't control the situation and asked another agency for assistance. By 00:45 the situation had petered out enough that the backup request was cancelled. I'm not sure if the support from another agency ever arrived.
I have a couple points here.
The first is that there is almost always a delay between a request for police assistance and the arrival of that assistance, even under the best of circumstances. In a crowded, constricted area, that delay is even greater because instead of a vehicle responding at 80 MPH they have to slow to a crawl because rioters and victims are blocking the roads and intersections.
The second is that if you look at the report, you can see that people were pulled out of there cars through doors and windows. At a minimum, those folks should have had their doors locked and windows rolled up.
The third, as you can see from the quotes from http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/...sconsin_state_fair_race_riot_hate_charges.php below, is that the "security" at the fair was pretty weak, and that part of your situational awareness should take into account the composition of the security guard force. Not all guards are equally competent and they may not always be completely impartial or unsympathetic to the rioters. Before going to a security guard for protection, one should consider how likely that guard is to actually try to protect you.
Again, you can't always count on police to protect you. A court case years ago established that protecting the public isn't even considered their primary purpose, Their job is to arrest violators of the law, not prevent violations.
Note that the first call went in at 22:49 and it wasn't until 23:55, over an hour later, that the responding officers at the scene realized they couldn't control the situation and asked another agency for assistance. By 00:45 the situation had petered out enough that the backup request was cancelled. I'm not sure if the support from another agency ever arrived.
I have a couple points here.
The first is that there is almost always a delay between a request for police assistance and the arrival of that assistance, even under the best of circumstances. In a crowded, constricted area, that delay is even greater because instead of a vehicle responding at 80 MPH they have to slow to a crawl because rioters and victims are blocking the roads and intersections.
The second is that if you look at the report, you can see that people were pulled out of there cars through doors and windows. At a minimum, those folks should have had their doors locked and windows rolled up.
The third, as you can see from the quotes from http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/...sconsin_state_fair_race_riot_hate_charges.php below, is that the "security" at the fair was pretty weak, and that part of your situational awareness should take into account the composition of the security guard force. Not all guards are equally competent and they may not always be completely impartial or unsympathetic to the rioters. Before going to a security guard for protection, one should consider how likely that guard is to actually try to protect you.
Again, you can't always count on police to protect you. A court case years ago established that protecting the public isn't even considered their primary purpose, Their job is to arrest violators of the law, not prevent violations.
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Okay, let's look at this....
I probably wouldn't *run* -- running from a mob that isn't looking for you specifically or at you specifically is just asking for their attention. Mobs are like dogs: if it runs, they chase it.
But I would try to escape or hide.
This point contains two separate questions. In answer to the first, I would go to the assistance of a victim if I could do so without putting my life or the lives of others at significantly heightened risk. I think that chances of being able to do this are reasonably decent. So it's not unlikely that, in practice, I would try.
In answer to the second, I would not try to stop the attack unless I thought I could do so without putting my life or the lives of others at significantly heightened risk. I think that chances of my being able to do *this* are down in the noise. So I doubt that, in practice, I would try.
No. If I draw my weapon, it's because I intend to use it. In a mob, that would be an absolute last resort. It's too likely to provoke more violence.
Yes. Of all the things that you suggested, this is what I would do first. The few times I've been in or around a mob or fighting, it has also worked. If you don't engage, the fighters usually have better things to do than to bother you. (And I was in the former Yugoslavia in spring of 1991 right after the war broke out. *That* was interesting....)
Yes. The only time I could see letting a mob attack without defending myself is if, in my judgment, I can't do so without risking innocent other lives.
This is prejudicially stated. However, it contains a valid point. Because I carry the means of defending myself with lethal force, I have a responsibility to other innocent people NOT to let it be taken from me by somebody who will then use it to kill others.
There are two corollaries to this point as well. First, although I carry openly from time to time, I don't do so when I expect to be in a crowd. Second, if I am going to participate in a protest or demonstration of any kind, I leave the gun at home. I'll carry pepper spray or some non-lethal (or usually non-lethal) form of self defense instead.
Not unless you mean the human race. Any human being is of the same race as me. (We'll leave speculation about sentient non-humans out of this.)
In Wisconsin? It happened, unfortunately. But that other individual people (of any race) are racist does not mean that I am, or should be.
I thought about skipping this list, but IMHO considering what to do in specific circumstances is an important part of training for self defense.
I've also been in a mob a few times, unlike most people I know. If you ever are, you won't have much time to think, and you'll be WAAYY ahead of the game if you've already thought about what to do. You're also far more likely to get out unscathed, or at least alive, if you don't let any testosterone-generated nonsense such as "they can't do that to me" affect your thinking or choices. Mobs unfortunately CAN do nasty things -- things that the vast majority of individuals in the mob would never do on their own. The best way not to be the target is to act in such a way that the mob won't notice you, and then GET OUT OF THERE.
- Do you run and hide/escape and hope that you can find a place where you can be secure?
I probably wouldn't *run* -- running from a mob that isn't looking for you specifically or at you specifically is just asking for their attention. Mobs are like dogs: if it runs, they chase it.
But I would try to escape or hide.
- Do you go to the assistance of a victim and attempt to stop the attack?
This point contains two separate questions. In answer to the first, I would go to the assistance of a victim if I could do so without putting my life or the lives of others at significantly heightened risk. I think that chances of being able to do this are reasonably decent. So it's not unlikely that, in practice, I would try.
In answer to the second, I would not try to stop the attack unless I thought I could do so without putting my life or the lives of others at significantly heightened risk. I think that chances of my being able to do *this* are down in the noise. So I doubt that, in practice, I would try.
- Do you draw your weapon without pointing it at anyone?
No. If I draw my weapon, it's because I intend to use it. In a mob, that would be an absolute last resort. It's too likely to provoke more violence.
- Do you calmly make your way out of the park and hope you aren't attacked?
Yes. Of all the things that you suggested, this is what I would do first. The few times I've been in or around a mob or fighting, it has also worked. If you don't engage, the fighters usually have better things to do than to bother you. (And I was in the former Yugoslavia in spring of 1991 right after the war broke out. *That* was interesting....)
- If attacked do you defend yourself and your family (with lethal force if necessary)?
Yes. The only time I could see letting a mob attack without defending myself is if, in my judgment, I can't do so without risking innocent other lives.
- Do you take the beating and hope they don't kick you in the head too much and take your gun?
This is prejudicially stated. However, it contains a valid point. Because I carry the means of defending myself with lethal force, I have a responsibility to other innocent people NOT to let it be taken from me by somebody who will then use it to kill others.
There are two corollaries to this point as well. First, although I carry openly from time to time, I don't do so when I expect to be in a crowd. Second, if I am going to participate in a protest or demonstration of any kind, I leave the gun at home. I'll carry pepper spray or some non-lethal (or usually non-lethal) form of self defense instead.
- Would your decision be affected if your race was the same as the mob or the victims?
Not unless you mean the human race. Any human being is of the same race as me. (We'll leave speculation about sentient non-humans out of this.)
- I don't think it happened, this thread is racist, and should be locked.
In Wisconsin? It happened, unfortunately. But that other individual people (of any race) are racist does not mean that I am, or should be.
I thought about skipping this list, but IMHO considering what to do in specific circumstances is an important part of training for self defense.
I've also been in a mob a few times, unlike most people I know. If you ever are, you won't have much time to think, and you'll be WAAYY ahead of the game if you've already thought about what to do. You're also far more likely to get out unscathed, or at least alive, if you don't let any testosterone-generated nonsense such as "they can't do that to me" affect your thinking or choices. Mobs unfortunately CAN do nasty things -- things that the vast majority of individuals in the mob would never do on their own. The best way not to be the target is to act in such a way that the mob won't notice you, and then GET OUT OF THERE.
Last night of the Iowa state fair was similiar, this year they plan on stronger police presense and NO CARRY WEAPONS ALLOWED. altho they did say no metal detectors. Craigslist has a raves and rants section, some folks posting there about the last nite is Janet Jackson and a riot is planned. So we will go another night 
There are multiple exits, see one is going bad go another way is all I can offer.
I just dont get it, a group of guys says hey lets go to the fair and beat up on folks for fun. I just dont understand that mindset.
So you go to the fair and be legal leave the guns and knives at home....then what?
There are multiple exits, see one is going bad go another way is all I can offer.
I just dont get it, a group of guys says hey lets go to the fair and beat up on folks for fun. I just dont understand that mindset.
So you go to the fair and be legal leave the guns and knives at home....then what?
Lots of things are linked to violence. That can make those things potential threats, but until there's actually violence or clearly impending violence they aren't threats, at least not in any legal sense of the word.
I suspect about 20% of the respondents didn't realize that more than one answer could be selected.
youngunz4life
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I think thats a little ridiculous
you could always request it to be closed but what would give you the right to disable it(an admin's job) especially after you opened it on the very edge of controversial as well as pleading w/the mods to leave it open in the 1st place?
you could always request it to be closed but what would give you the right to disable it(an admin's job) especially after you opened it on the very edge of controversial as well as pleading w/the mods to leave it open in the 1st place?
youngunz4life
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and the other times when there is an argument and people ask for closing it gets ignored?
youngunz4life
New member
thanx for PM, Chack. That made sense after reading it.
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