facing a violent mob when carrying, milwaukee state fair...

[youngunz4life]

football

that was hilarious

 

[Sefner]

I'm gonna ask my question again that somehow got deleted even tho' it had nothing todo with the racial aspects here.

Would head-shots perhaps be better if you must fire on an angry mob, since they might not even notice a few of their buddies going down, but splattering blood and brains and gore ought to give them something to think about?

I know you normally shoot COM because it makes a better target, but this isn't a normal situation.

I've read in some tactics rags and articles that if faced with a mob, gang, or any sizable group, to try to find the leader and take them out first (taze, bullet, teargas, whatever). This seems, for whatever reason, to offer the best chance of stopping the mob. I've heard it compared to shooting the lead dog in a pack of wild dogs in order to send the whole pack scattering. Unfortunately I have no source for this.

 

[WANT A LCR 22LR]

I think we need a good link / contact to someone that _knows_ what motivates people in a attack gang. This might give some insight as to what to do / not do. ( I'm thinking something on the military / police level with some psychology people mixed in. )

To go even farther, it would be good to know what motivates a single attacker and what works to keep them at bay. In another thread, someone in a command voice said " I don't have anything you want! ". It seemed that this worked pretty well on the drugged up BG. I'm guessing it worked because the BG was focused on getting something and when they were told it wasn't available the focus had to change. ( Telling them to keep away won't work because they are focused on getting something. )

 

[WANT A LCR 22LR]

"" I've read in some tactics rags and articles that if faced with a mob, gang, or any sizable group, to try to find the leader and take them out first ""

I'm not convinced the Milwaukee incident had a single leader. It was likely more of a common target to focus on with individuals carrying out their own operations than one person directing the show.

Some time back, there was a news report talking about mid east terror cells that ascribe to a common goal but are independent in operation. I'd think the fair incident is similar. In this case you have to go after the person attacking you rather than looking farther.

 

[Tom Servo]

splattering blood and brains and gore ought to give them something to think about

Have you ever seen a bullet wound to the head? It isn't like a Romero film. They're often quite undramatic. Besides, if you're facing a mob bent on imminent violence, you're not going to be given the time to level such a shot, nor are they likely to be looking at their comrades. Their attention will be faced solely on you, since you just produced something that makes a loud bang and a bright flash.

I can't speak for the psychological factors, but I've had occasion to encounter a mob. Once things turn violent, there is no way to diffuse or de-escalate. Retreat is pretty much the only option unless you've got truly massive firepower, and you can live with taking a great many lives.

 

[zxcvbob]

I honestly can tell you I would have no problem dispatching as many of these idiots as humanly possible. The world has no place for idiots like that.

Your job is not to execute idiots (even if they desperately need it) your job is to survive. And then don't say anything stupid when the police eventually show up!

I think if I kept that in mind, I could kill with a clear conscience. That doesn't mean it's the best tactic (but sometimes it might be)

Have you ever seen a bullet wound to the head? It isn't like a Romero film. They're often quite undramatic.

No I haven't, that's one reason I asked; I'm trying to learn something

 

[football32]

Did I say anything about executing?

Im talking about a self defense situation. If i see a group of 300 coming at me, no matter what color, that are savagely beating everyone in sight and they make there way to me im either running them over with my car or im shooting all of them that stick their face in the hole where my window used to be that they just busted out. I cant kill them all, but Ill gladly take as many of them as i can before they get me.

 

[mete]

The mob situation is one where awareness of your surroundings is the most important .
First know when to get out of Dodge and how to get out of Dodge !! Since situations can change very quickly the very instant there is a problem leave INSTANTLY ! Don't wait to see what's happening . The gun is to be used only as a desperite last resort

 

[zxcvbob]

Did I say anything about executing?

You kind of did, maybe. That's all it takes to get the investigators focused on you instead of the mob. My point was just that what you say describing the event afterwards can make a big difference in how you come out legally (assuming you survive in the first place.) Choose your words carefully and sparingly, that's all.

 

[OkieGentleman]

Having to shoot your way out

I wonder if instead of head shots, would knee capping be better? Would kneeling and shooting knee high get you more "buck for your bang". With modern ammo and over penetration you could probably put on the ground with each shot between 2 and 6 to 8 people.all screaming their heads off. The screaming of 12 or 14 shot people in the same area should slow any but the very very stupid. And you would (with a high cap mag) still have about 10 rounds for the very very stupid. You would be down lower so the crowd might not see you very well. Just a idea, maybe stupid but what the heck. As far as shooting "innocents" we all know if you were in the middle of that mob you are already guilty.

Also if you have had to do something like this, as soon as the LEO says hello the first words out of your mouth "I wish to speak to a lawyer." And that is only thing you say unless you are asking for medical treatment. And you keep repeating "I wish to speak to a lawyer". I mean what is the use of all these criminals getting US all of these rights if we do not use them.

 

[youngunz4life]

Since situations can change very quickly the very instant there is a problem leave INSTANTLY !

only problem mete, many times it is too late when you realize the gravity of the situation. of course sometimes you can use this to your advantage but many times it is too late.

as for the knee cap thing. I can't say I disagree with where you were going with that okie, but kneeling and shooting low shots like that have a smaller target to hit(legs), so this creates more misses and more innocents at risk. It also would cause many more riccochets. Best to center mass the shots.

drawing on a mob is very dangerous but it can work as long as you try and leave ASAP after that point. of course, I haven't actually had to do so but whaa else can you do if they're about on you and literally focusing on you? I know there are factors or possibilites to do something else, but there is also a chance that drawing is your safest bet. In this situation, if someone had drawn a weapon(Wisconsin CCW is brand new) and he/she did it for all the legally correct reasons of protecting his/her family, I think there is a good chance the punks might've been confused long enough to give way to the CCW's exit w/his family.

 

[Tom Servo]

No I haven't, that's one reason I asked; I'm trying to learn something

I've seen two, both self-inflicted. In one case, subject stuck the gun in his mouth, then pulled the trigger. Witnesses describe him flinching and "passing out." When I got to him (roughly 15 seconds later), he was lying on his back and looked placid. It wasn't until I went to check his pulse that I saw the blood pooling out from under his head.

In the second case, the shot entered the skull from the right side, pointing left. Things on the left were messy, but the bystanders (who were to the right) did not immediately realize what happened, as the mess wasn't apparent in the grass and dirt in the area.

Chances are, if a group of people are high on drugs, or simply highly agitated, they're not going to notice if the guy next to them gets shot. They'll hear the report and see the flash, but they'll most likely thing the guy tripped. Bear in mind that someone in that state isn't looking at their periphery; they're looking straight ahead to their objective.

As such, I don't think a firearm would be much of a deterrent in a situation like this. At best, I would hope to slow the folks who get the closest while I do my best to retreat.

Running away may not seem the most glamorous approach, but in the long run, it sure beats any alternative I can think of.

 

[threegun]

only problem mete, many times it is too late when you realize the gravity of the situation. of course sometimes you can use this to your advantage but many times it is too late.

I agree. In a fair type environment with all the people and noise it is sometimes difficult to sense trouble 50 yards from you much less on the other side of the fair grounds or even parking lot. The Florida State fair has one entrance and exit, that I know of anyway.......haven't been in 20 years because of the violence and they won't let me carry legally while in the fair.

You could easily be blocked in and forced to hold ground IMO.

 

[threegun]

I think you guys are mistaking a real mob and a large group of thugs. The real mob may not respond to a single man shooting at them. The large group of thugs I am sure will respond positively (for us) when so attacked. Alone these guys are to afraid to attack but as a group they gain the confidence needed to pounce. In the face of death via someones gun I truly feel they will run while soiling their undies so bad that bleach wouldn't help.

If I am forced to defend myself and family it will be as fast and violent as I am capable of being.

 

[meatgrinder42]

I would have just turned heel and ran. I served in the Marines and feel I could handle myself with one or two guys but riots are a whole new game. A gun wouldn't have done anything in the situation since they know you don't have enough for all of them and would soon overwhelm you at your first reload (if you made it that far, after all you cannot aim ahead and behind you).

The best action to be taken would be to turn heel and run away from the crowd. If you're in your vehicle lock the doors and roll up the windows. Insurance will cover the idiot scaring you to death on your roof.

 

[mete]

Threegun, if you don't want to spend your time carefully observing the growd then it's better to stay home .
I've never been thrilled to be in a large crowd even the most peaceful one.
For example there is a problem in the front of the crowd but the back of the crowd doesn't know it and continues forward crushing to death the ones in the front !!
Or a crowd moving forward and someone falls and that person is crushed to death.Do everything necessary to prevent falling down !!

 

[threegun]

Mete, I stay home alot. Crowds for me are limited to Sea World and Universal Studios these days. I don't even like the Mall on a busy weekend.

 

[zxcvbob]

I would have just turned heel and ran. I served in the Marines and feel I could handle myself with one or two guys but riots are a whole new game. A gun wouldn't have done anything in the situation since they know you don't have enough for all of them and would soon overwhelm you at your first reload (if you made it that far, after all you cannot aim ahead and behind you).

The best action to be taken would be to turn heel and run away from the crowd. If you're in your vehicle lock the doors and roll up the windows. Insurance will cover the idiot scaring you to death on your roof.

The problem is, the only reason I would be at a place like that is because I'm with my family. I'm not going to abandon them if they are unable to make a mad dash for the exit. My job might even be to create a diversion so they can try to sneak away.

 

[stephen426]

My reaction would largely depend on where I am at the time and who I am with. While I could probably out run a mob (unless they are chasing me specifically), my wife and baby certainly could not.

If I am near the exit of the fairground and I sense trouble, I force my way back in and seek shelter.

If I am in the thick of it when it starts, there isn't too much that can be done. I will certainly shoot anyone who approaches me in a threatening manner. I usually carry a small pocket pistol with 2 spares at best. That only give me 19 rounds tops. I guess I would shoot while moving towards safety. After I run out of bullets, I go to my knife and try to deter the punks into picking an easier target.

If I was already in the car, I will run over anyone that is trying to attack me. I would have the wife and baby lie down in the back in case anyone starts shooting. Anyone trying to break a window or get in would be shot.

I don't care what race they are or even how old they are. They are attacking people with potentially life threatening force (Especially kicks to the head when people are down).

While it is usually the best scenario to not be there in the first place, I find it sad that we have to avoid fun places because other people want to cause trouble.

 

[skoro]

facing a violent mob

This is a tough one. I think the best thing to do is to avoid the mob, if possible. Drawing and firing might only escalate the situation.