Excellent Russia-Georgia Analysis from George Friedman

In this situation, I come down on Russia's side. That part of the world is theirs not ours. The US has no business putting missles that close to Russia after they've been warned not to. We(the US) didn't tolerate the same thing in Cuba and they shouldn't have to tolerate it next door to them.

The Russians are kicking *** right now and rolling like a juggernaut with soldiers who are a generation removed from Afghanistan, the same as the US soldiers who are in Iraq today. I don't think they'll go back to what they were during the time of the USSR, they had ships and subs to project themselves internationally that cost them billions of rubles. It's so much easier, cheaper and effective for them to maintain their army that no force in Europe can match.
 
Payback Time. Russia made a big mistake that'll hurt it in the long run.

August 15, 2008 New York Times
Russia Enraged by Poland Missile Deal
By THOM SHANKER and NICHOLAS KULISH
WASHINGTON — The United States and Poland reached a long-stalled deal on Thursday to place an American missile defense base on Polish territory, in the strongest reaction so far to Russia’s military operation in Georgia.

Russia reacted angrily, saying that the move would worsen relations with the United States that have already been strained severely in the week since Russian troops entered separatist enclaves in Georgia, a close American ally. At a news conference on Friday, a senior Russian defense official, Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, suggested that Poland was making itself a target by agreeing to serve as host for the anti-missile system. Such an action “cannot go unpunished,” he said.

The deal reflected growing alarm in a range of countries that had been part of the Soviet sphere, about a newly rich and powerful Russia’s intentions in its former cold war sphere of power. In fact, negotiations dragged on for 18 months — but were completed only as old memories and new fears surfaced in recent days.

Those fears were codified to some degree in what Polish and American officials characterized as unusual aspects of the final deal: that at least temporarily American soldiers would staff air defense sites in Poland oriented toward Russia, and that the United States would be obliged to defend Poland in case of an attack with greater speed than required under NATO, of which Poland is a member.

Polish officials said the agreement would strengthen the mutual commitment of the United States to defend Poland, and vice versa. “Poland and the Poles do not want to be in alliances in which assistance comes at some point later — it is no good when assistance comes to dead people,” the Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, said on Polish television. “Poland wants to be in alliances where assistance comes in the very first hours of — knock on wood — any possible conflict.”

A sense of deepened suspicions — and the more darkly drawn lines between countries in the region — were also apparent in the emotional reaction from Russia.

“It is this kind of agreement, not the split between Russia and United States over the problem of South Ossetia, that may have a greater impact on the growth in tensions in Russian-American relations,” Konstantin Kosachyov, chairman of the foreign affairs committee in the Russian Parliament, told the Interfax news agency on Thursday in Moscow.

South Ossetia is the pro-Russian enclave inside Georgia where Russia sent troops last week, following a military crackdown by the pro-Western government in Georgia.

The missile defense deal was announced by Polish officials and confirmed by the White House. Under it, Poland would host an American base with 10 interceptors designed to shoot down a limited number of ballistic missiles, in theory launched by a future adversary such as Iran. A tracking radar system would be based in the Czech Republic. The system is expected to be in place by 2012.

In exchange for providing the base, Poland would get what the two sides called “enhanced security cooperation,” notably a top-of-the-line Patriot air defense system that can shoot down shorter-range missiles or attacking fighters or bombers.

A senior Pentagon official described an unusual part of this quid pro quo: an American Patriot battery would be moved from Germany to Poland, where it would be operated by a crew of about 100 American military personnel members. The expenses would be shared by both nations. American troops would join the Polish military, at least temporarily, at the front lines — facing east toward Russia.

Russia has long opposed the deal, saying the United States was violating post-cold-war agreements not to base its troops in former Soviet bloc states and devising a Trojan Horse system designed to counter Russia’s nuclear arsenal, not an attack by Iran or another adversary.

Stop-and-start negotiations over the arrangement that was sealed Thursday had been under way for almost two years, with the Polish government reluctant to press the deal in the face of strong opposition — and retaliatory threats — from Moscow.

For its part, Washington had balked at some of Poland’s demands, in particular the sale of advanced air defense systems that were unrelated to shooting down ballistic missiles.

But in a sign of the widening repercussions of the conflict in Georgia, those concerns were cast aside, as the offensive by Russia’s military across its borders was viewed around the world as a sign of Moscow’s determination to reimpose its influence across the old Soviet bloc.

Polish officials, in announcing the agreement, said it would be presented to the National Legislature, although it remained unclear whether the American base would require a vote of approval.

The other half of the American missile defense system in Europe would be an advanced radar in the Czech Republic for tracking specific targets and then precisely guiding an interceptor to destroy a warhead. Likewise, that deal has been signed by the country’s leaders, and is awaiting debate in the Czech Parliament.

At the White House, the press secretary, Dana M. Perino, confirmed that senior officials had initialed the agreement. “In no way is the president’s plan for missile defense aimed at Russia,” she said. “In fact, it’s just not even logically possible for it to be aimed at Russia, given how Russia could overwhelm it. The purpose of missile defense is to protect our European allies from any rogue threats, such as a missile from Iran.”

The Bush administration, in an attempt to prove its sincerity and transparency, had invited Moscow to join as a partner in a continentwide missile defense system, sharing information and technology with NATO allies.

While Russian and American experts have discussed cooperation, senior officials in Moscow have kept up a nonstop stream of complaints about the system.

The agreement also poses potential political problems for Democratic critics of missile defense who would be fighting to cut financing for the program in the face of the specific request from Poland and in light of the Russian offensive into Georgia.

There is no such ambivalence on Russia’s periphery, where Moscow’s attack signaled danger, and offered logic for closer ties with Washington and NATO.

In Poland, the war in Georgia has dominated the front pages of newspapers, where it has been starkly characterized as Russian invaders attacking Georgia. For Poles, Russia’s actions also come as a vindication of Poland’s distrust of its former conqueror and was a warning about issues like energy security, one of the primary areas in which a resurgent Russia first began to exert itself.

“We are worried that we are facing, under the strong arm of Russia, a situation where some kind of understanding would be reached that Russia would be given a free hand in the region,” said Eugeniusz Smolar, director of the Center for International Relations, a nonprofit, nonpartisan research group in Warsaw.
 
The only way that America can directly support Poland is to come through Germany and I don't see the Germans signing off on that; maybe air support but there's just not enough room in Europe to contain and stop the Russians if they decide to roll west.
 
A province that was subject to a 1994 peacekeeping agreement that Georgia had signed that provided for Russian troops to keep the peace there. Georgia attacked those troops.

Those would be the Russian peacekeepers who consistently and conveniently failed to keep the Ossetians from shelling Georgian towns...


The US has no business putting missles that close to Russia after they've been warned not to. We(the US) didn't tolerate the same thing in Cuba and they shouldn't have to tolerate it next door to them.
There is a large difference between a nuclear ballistic missile meant to incinerate large population centers and a non-nuclear interceptor which is meant to shoot down said nuclear ballistic missile.

FYI the US has plenty of business placing such defensive missiles there should the nations we are placing them in agree to it. Russia has no place ordering and threatening those nations with force. It makes sense to gauge the Russian opinion of such actions and possible responses but they have no magical right to simply order independent nations what to do when it comes to a defensive system incapable of harming them.

Russia really has no respect for borders or laws with regards to other nations. They didn't before Lenin and they don't after. You can't trust them to abide by such rules should they conflict with Russian desires and their desire now is to be the dominant power in that part of the world. That means they will pound on anyone who opposes them. Reagan pointed this out 25 years ago and it is as true today as it was then.

I just wonder what the USA should do, if anything. Give this some time, Georgia will only be round one. Any other nation that is next door to Russia and troublesome is going to be visited by a column of tanks. The only good thing is that in time the USA is not going to look so bad on the world stage... I thought it was going to take China taking Taiwan or using their developing blue water navy to claim resources abroad through invasion to make the world realize we really do mean to improve the world. Looks like Russia will push up the timetable.
 
Kudos to Poland. They were one of the first to stand up to the former Soviet Union and are now firmly declaring their position regarding the Russian goal to renew their domination of their neighbors.

It is a big gamble for Poland. I do not think Georgia should be our fight but if Russia goes after Poland in retaliation we need to stand with them.
 
FYI the US has plenty of business placing such defensive missiles there should the nations we are placing them in agree to it. Russia has no place ordering and threatening those nations with force. It makes sense to gauge the Russian opinion of such actions and possible responses but they have no magical right to simply order independent nations what to do when it comes to a defensive system incapable of harming them.

Well, following that logic the US should have respected Cuba's desire to have Russian missles on it's territory but it didn't because they were a genuine threat to a large part of the US and in our backyard.

The same standard should be considered when it comes to placing weaponry close to the territory of a historical and powerful enemy like Russia; and whether or not the system is incapable of harming them is irrelevent. They asked the US not to do it and the US ignored them. Now, they're putting everyone on notice of what they're willing to do and there's really not a thing the US can do unless we want to go to war with them and I just don't think the American people are willing to risk a new shooting war over the placement of a missle shield which the Russians consider to be an overt expansion into their territorial sphere of influence.

The Russians aren't playing around on this. They're serious and we have been warned.
 
It is a big gamble for Poland. I do not think Georgia should be our fight but if Russia goes after Poland in retaliation we need to stand with them.

How are we going to stand with them? The US military will have to stage and jump off from Germany against tank armies outnumbering it about 10-1 and despite the disintegration of the USSR those tanks, bombs and troops are still there.
 
The same standard should be considered when it comes to placing weaponry close to the territory of a historical and powerful enemy like Russia; and whether or not the system is incapable of harming them is irrelevent.

HOW IS IT IRRELEVANT???? The Sovs placed tons of air batteries and other defensive equipment in Cuba and we did nothing, the blockade was only instituted after the missile sheds starting appearing. Get this straight, Russia has no right to a "sphere of influence" (which should be more correctly called a "sphere of intimidation"). They have no more right to it now than they did in 1939 when they marched into Poland along with their then allies, the Nazis, or Finland, or Estonia, or Latvia, or Lithuania. None, zero, zilch. These were all peaceful countries posing absolutely no threat. They know there is no threat from NATO. The danger that pro-Western countries close to Russia pose is to show their people how corrupt and authoritarian the Kremlin is, and that their lives could be better, just like in the rest of the former Warsaw Pact countries.
 
Well, following that logic the US should have respected Cuba's desire to have Russian missles on it's territory but it didn't because they were a genuine threat to a large part of the US and in our backyard.

SECOND TIME:There is a large difference between a nuclear ballistic missile meant to incinerate large population centers and a non-nuclear interceptor which is meant to shoot down said nuclear ballistic missile.

As pointed out by HKuser, I did not see the US take action against any anti aircraft assets placed in Cuba by the USSR. When it comes to Russia understand their motivations but realize to them Sphere of Influence = Sphere of Intimidation.
 
So...anything Russia does is in legitimate defense of its borders...its "sphere of influence," whatever that means, while the U.S. has no legitimate "sphere of influence" or interests along its borders. OK...well...now its really down the rabbit hole. Sometimes I feel as if I'm reading Pravda or the Daily KoS here.

America declared it's sphere of influence in Cuba in the early 60's and all those little proxy wars it fought in Central and South America.

The precedent is well established, you beat up the kids on your street, I beat up the kids on my street.

Everybody's happy. (Except the little kids.)
 
America declared it's sphere of influence in Cuba in the early 60's and all those little proxy wars it fought in Central and South America.

I do not recall seeing US troops and armor fighting on Cuban or Latin American soil.
 
It is irrelevent because it doesn't matter to them what the purpose of the missles is. All they know is that unwanted weapons have been placed close to their country and they're going to do whatever it takes to get them removed. Sovereign country or not.

Also, if the Russians hadn't removed those missles Cuba was going to be hit by airstrikes and followed up by an invasion of US troops. I don't think anyone on this board would deny that.
 
It is irrelevent because it doesn't matter to them what the purpose of the missles is. All they know is that unwanted weapons have been placed close to their country and they're going to do whatever it takes to get them removed. Sovereign country or not.

That is the Russian view but it does not make it the correct one. Whether the nations around Russia revert to being puppet states is going to be decided shortly.

Getting some world support on this would be nice. The resurgence of the big bad bear may make some Europeans think twice about who they want as their friend. Pointing out that missile defense will protect Paris, Berlin, Amsterdam and London from attack by states like Iran would help.
 
I do not recall seeing US troops and armor fighting on Cuban or Latin American soil.

I do. In the summer of 1988 the US sent elements of the 82nd Airborne division to Central America in response to the Sandinistas crossing the border of El Salvador to chase down the Contras. Nothing big ever came of it but I have a few friends who did participate in the airdrop.

Also, the US mined the harbor of Nicaraguan ports to shut off supplies from Russia, which really didn't make a difference; but on one point you're right. There was no US armor involved, but plenty of low key troop action.
 
RangerHAAF is coorect. I had forgotten about that, pretty sad since I read a Reagan book which discussed it not long ago...

I would still say though it was nothing on the scale of what Russia is doing.
 
THEY ARE DEFENSE MISSILES!!!!!

If Russia doesn't want countries to start prepping defensivly, then they should not have announced themselves as "We are a Superpower again, and We Are Back". The whole world remembers the Cold War and the USSR's capabilities. And if "they are back", then it's time to start prepping again. Poland is it's own country, if want to invite another country to place missiles on their own peice of ground, it's their right. To hell with what the Russians like/dis-like.
 
One troubling thought...

A resurgent Russia with the willingness and capability to project its will through military force today is more frightening than the former Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was at least crippled by a broken economic system which doomed them from the start. The new Russia is prosperous thanks to oil and finally learning how to make money. It cannot be beaten down like the former USSR was economically and is also not tied to flawed Leninist ideology. We will never see the USSR but may certainly see a Russian Empire.
 
The only reason that I remembered it was because NBC kept replaying the drop over and over; and the 1st Ranger Battalion that I was a member of had just returned from Panama, so that part of the world was of a particular concern to me.

Poland is it's own country, if want to invite another country to place missiles on their own peice of ground, it's their right. To hell with what the Russians like/dis-like.

I also admit your point, what the Russians are doing is wrong and I believe in national self determination and freedom but it's the Georgians, the Ukranians and the Poles that have to live next to the Russians not us.
 
One troubling thought...

A resurgent Russia with the willingness and capability to project its will through military force today is more frightening than the former Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was at least crippled by a broken economic system which doomed them from the start. The new Russia is prosperous thanks to oil and finally learning how to make money. It cannot be beaten down like the former USSR was economically and is also not tied to flawed Leninist ideology. We will never see the USSR but may certainly see a Russian Empire.

Good point..and while Georgia screwed up, to be perfectly clear, I think that one of our only options at this point is to allow the Ukraine and perhaps other threatened Ex Soviet states into NATO, so as to dissuade further swelling of Russian ambitions. Georgia might be a loss, hard to tell at this point, but the West really needs to be united on this point: Russia needs to be controlled from further attempts of re-conquest. Weakness will be exploited by the Russians and if they see a West that is weak and without resolve they will be emboldened into into such adventures.

This is why I actually agree with the strategy of placing defensive missiles in Poland. And no (!), Poland, nor Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Czech Repl., Slovakia, etc., should be considered "the Russian's backyard". To me, as a first generation immigrant to the great U.S., from Romania, that is an absolutely appalling notion.

Eastern Europe was sold down the river by the West at the Yalta Conference and it suffered some 40 years under the life starving oppression of Soviet Communism. Let us learn from history and keep the Russian Bear under control, penned up in his own territory. I pray to God that the West wakes up from its decadent and morally corrupt stupor and shows resolve on this.
 
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