RoughDivider
New member
I don't think you understand that he said finish wear, not actual metal wear. You're getting too uptight about this, the gun will outlast you if you do routine .maintenance
Durability&Longevity of aluminum alloy frame pistols (Taurus PT 92/Beretta 92)
- Thread starter TheGuyOfSouthamerica
- Start date
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
TailGator,
Can you post a Picture of the finish wear of your Beretta 92.
I oversaw the enphasis in FINISH wear and thought it ate already the rails up to bottom.
Can you post a Picture of the finish wear of your Beretta 92.
I oversaw the enphasis in FINISH wear and thought it ate already the rails up to bottom.
mikejonestkd
New member
I just took my 92FS apart, and there is NO wear on the frame after 30,000 rounds.
The finish is slightly worn but that's about it.
I believe you may be overly concerned about this non issue
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/mikejonestkd/media/firearms/022.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/mikejonestkd/media/firearms/023.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/mikejonestkd/media/firearms/021.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
The finish is slightly worn but that's about it.
I believe you may be overly concerned about this non issue
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/mikejonestkd/media/firearms/022.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/mikejonestkd/media/firearms/023.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
http://s150.photobucket.com/user/mikejonestkd/media/firearms/021.jpg.html?sort=3&o=2
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EIGHTYDUECE
New member
The Colt Commander problems are due to the pistol being designed with steel but made of aluminum alloy. When the 1911 was designed, Browning knew he was using steel as a material and thus engineered it based on the strength of the material. The frame rails, dust cover, thickness of material were all sized and designed based on how strong the material was, steel. The alloy frame commander frame was simply made , dimensions and all, from aluminum. If it was designed up front with the plan to use alloy, many things would have been beefed up. That is why you hear of issues with the longevity concerning it. The alloy S&W revolvers did the same. Since these guns were designed to "carry a lot but not shoot alot" It was an acceptable compromise.
The Beretta and your Taurus was designed from the ground up to be built with an aluminum frame. This is why the frame rails on these are twice as large as a similar sized steel frame pistol. Everything is beefed up in the nessassary areas. The slide to frame friction will only shine up where the two pieces contact and that is it, even steel frame guns do that. They will not shave any alloy off. I have a Beretta 92FS made in 1991 and has well over 5000 rounds thru it (stopped counting a long time ago) and all I have done is replace the recoil spring every 1500 rounds or so and I did replace the locking block a few years ago just because I have so many rounds thru it. My original locking block looks fine. The design is one of the most robust in a 9mm full size handgun and has been around for 40 or so years. I rate it right up there with Glock and Sig. You did very well choosing that handgun.
The Beretta and your Taurus was designed from the ground up to be built with an aluminum frame. This is why the frame rails on these are twice as large as a similar sized steel frame pistol. Everything is beefed up in the nessassary areas. The slide to frame friction will only shine up where the two pieces contact and that is it, even steel frame guns do that. They will not shave any alloy off. I have a Beretta 92FS made in 1991 and has well over 5000 rounds thru it (stopped counting a long time ago) and all I have done is replace the recoil spring every 1500 rounds or so and I did replace the locking block a few years ago just because I have so many rounds thru it. My original locking block looks fine. The design is one of the most robust in a 9mm full size handgun and has been around for 40 or so years. I rate it right up there with Glock and Sig. You did very well choosing that handgun.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
I will foreward you guys my Special thanks for your contribution. Specially mikejonestkd for his photos. That dissolved the mist of misty doubts.
As well eightyduece for his experience sharing of his Beretta 92.
According to the photos in post #43 there is not at all an preocupating wear on the rails. Only to see a Little wear on the top front half but a Little further there is again the finish to see. Sideways no wear to see at all (except in the front part a negligeable bit).
For 30000 rounds that is impressive.
I will then liquid grease (spray can) the rails of the Taurus PT 92 AFS (stainless) and the part of the locking lug as well. The Wilson Combat shok buff will be used to avoid battering the Frame were the slide hits (or the rubber O-ring if that should work well. I let you know in this thread about if the O-ring works or not).
The gun will be stored in an Nylon padded (fabric-nylon padding) Browning Holster (it fits there. One of These Browning Holsters for the Browning 22 LR pistols). Those have the best padding and I did not want an leather one out of fear the aluminum Frame can react chemically with the leather.
However the Beretta 92's precessor seems to be the all steel Frame M1923 Beretta 9mm Glisenti like here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M1923. So the origins of the Beretta 92 is of all steel heritage as well. Only in 1951 and then 1975 (year of the Beretta 92 design birth) the Frame was aluminum. Even the P38 had an steel Frame (the P38 is a predecessor of the Beretta 92 design as well) but postwar P38 had gotten an aluminum Frame already.
So I am not sure; seems predecessor pistols of the Beretta 92 were steel Frame pistols.
As well eightyduece for his experience sharing of his Beretta 92.
According to the photos in post #43 there is not at all an preocupating wear on the rails. Only to see a Little wear on the top front half but a Little further there is again the finish to see. Sideways no wear to see at all (except in the front part a negligeable bit).
For 30000 rounds that is impressive.
I will then liquid grease (spray can) the rails of the Taurus PT 92 AFS (stainless) and the part of the locking lug as well. The Wilson Combat shok buff will be used to avoid battering the Frame were the slide hits (or the rubber O-ring if that should work well. I let you know in this thread about if the O-ring works or not).
The gun will be stored in an Nylon padded (fabric-nylon padding) Browning Holster (it fits there. One of These Browning Holsters for the Browning 22 LR pistols). Those have the best padding and I did not want an leather one out of fear the aluminum Frame can react chemically with the leather.
However the Beretta 92's precessor seems to be the all steel Frame M1923 Beretta 9mm Glisenti like here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_M1923. So the origins of the Beretta 92 is of all steel heritage as well. Only in 1951 and then 1975 (year of the Beretta 92 design birth) the Frame was aluminum. Even the P38 had an steel Frame (the P38 is a predecessor of the Beretta 92 design as well) but postwar P38 had gotten an aluminum Frame already.
So I am not sure; seems predecessor pistols of the Beretta 92 were steel Frame pistols.
No, just different. My personal preference is for the Beretta 92 design, but I would say that the SIG is superior in some ways, the Beretta in other ways. My gut feel says that the SIG might have a durability edge, but I doubt I'll ever wear out a Beretta 92 pistol. I don't have the time or money to manage it, especially since I have other guns I shoot regularly.
Pros and cons for both. I've left mine stock.
Aluminum has different fatigue properties than polymer or steel. However, gun designers know this and firearm manufacturers dedicated to making a durable, quality product take pains to design their guns to last and perform regardless of the materials used. Will an aluminum frame Beretta 92 last as long as a polymer frame Ruger P95? Probably not, but it will last long enough to cost you many thousands of dollars in ammo costs. And it might be more fun to shoot too...
Yup. That's a good bet.
There are people who lie on the internet, but most of the time it's more that people think they know something that they really don't. So they provide information that they are sure is correct but without knowing enough to provide solid information and without knowing enough to realize that they aren't providing solid information. If you want correct information you'll have to find multiple sources and compare them.
There was a guy on the Beretta forum who claimed to have put over 100,000 rounds through a Beretta 96, the .40S&W version of the Beretta 92. Is that the whole story? No, there's a guy on Calguns who claimed his 92 frame cracked after 4,000 rounds. So that's the answer? No. The average answer is somewhere in between.
"Finish wear" absolutely does not equate to "eating through the frame".
EIGHTYDUECE
New member
The post war P38 (P1 is correct for the alloy model) falls under the same reasons alloy frame Colt Commanders have issues in durability compared to their steel frame Combat Commander. It was designed for steel frame but made identically with aluminum alloy.
The old steel frame 1951 Berettas are not the same model as the 92FS and thus parts do not interchange. They beefed up the whole 92 series pistol to be built with the alloy. When A Beretta breaks after all those rounds, it is not the frame 99.99% of the time. It is usually the locking block which is steel. Glocks also fail due to worn parts. When someones says they have 100,000 rounds thru their Glock, you must understand that they replaced worn parts as they wear.
One thing I should also say is that even all steel guns don't last any longer in my opinion. CZ-75s have their issues as well as fullsize 1911a1s and variants.
The old steel frame 1951 Berettas are not the same model as the 92FS and thus parts do not interchange. They beefed up the whole 92 series pistol to be built with the alloy. When A Beretta breaks after all those rounds, it is not the frame 99.99% of the time. It is usually the locking block which is steel. Glocks also fail due to worn parts. When someones says they have 100,000 rounds thru their Glock, you must understand that they replaced worn parts as they wear.
One thing I should also say is that even all steel guns don't last any longer in my opinion. CZ-75s have their issues as well as fullsize 1911a1s and variants.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
I started to like the idea of an aluminum Frame pistol due to the no rust properties of aluminum. But I never thought that much of the fact that an aluminum Frame wears faster.
I once had an Russian all steel 22 lr "Margo" pistol which started to rust on the grip.
That was awkward to grip and feel and I detested it.
It had still the Steyr-Hahn M1912 type front removable pin-lug for disassembly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_M1912). Once the slide almost flew off backwards into my face coming on one side off the rail. I guess it had something to do with the old Steyr-Hahn design pin-lug which holds the whole gun together being spring loaded with the main spring.
I know I did not like any rusty pistol handle.
I once had an Russian all steel 22 lr "Margo" pistol which started to rust on the grip.
That was awkward to grip and feel and I detested it.
It had still the Steyr-Hahn M1912 type front removable pin-lug for disassembly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_M1912). Once the slide almost flew off backwards into my face coming on one side off the rail. I guess it had something to do with the old Steyr-Hahn design pin-lug which holds the whole gun together being spring loaded with the main spring.
I know I did not like any rusty pistol handle.
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Jim Watson
New member
From my reading, the wear point of the Beretta is the separate locking block, not the aluminum frame. I would assume the Taurus to do the same.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
Yes. And I just read the locking block locks into the slide and NOT the Frame. So basically as I understand it the Frame gets no stress from the locking block.
The only stress the aluminum Frame gets is the rails were the slide slides on; and the front slide lug when it travels back and hits the Frame.
For this hitting the Frame (battering) the Wilson Combat shok buff is used so the Piece buffers the Impact. Supposingly even with good springs it batters the Frame (steel hits aluminum).
The only stress the aluminum Frame gets is the rails were the slide slides on; and the front slide lug when it travels back and hits the Frame.
For this hitting the Frame (battering) the Wilson Combat shok buff is used so the Piece buffers the Impact. Supposingly even with good springs it batters the Frame (steel hits aluminum).
Jim Watson
New member
Not to a degree that bothers me, but you do not have parts and service.
The buffer is cheap insurance.
Also, Bruce Gray, leading gunsmith of aluminum Sig Sauers, recommends grease for lubrication of steel on aluminum friction.
The buffer is cheap insurance.
Also, Bruce Gray, leading gunsmith of aluminum Sig Sauers, recommends grease for lubrication of steel on aluminum friction.
The locking block locks the barrel to the slide. It does impact the frame during the unlocking process which causes some frame stress, I suppose. Also the barrel stopping against the frame and the slide stopping against the frame at the end of the recoil stroke all cause some frame stress. If you like worrying about things, you can worry about that although it will take your mind off things that would be more important to worry about. 
I use a very light grease for lubricating aluminum on steel sliding contact. A light, white lithium grease works fine but there are other options out there as well.
ShootistPRS
New member
While semi-autos have less stress on the frames and most of the stress is on the slide, rails, lock and slide stop there is still stress there. You will find that the wear surfaces are hard anodized - a process which electrically bonds materials through cathode bombardment - to allow better lubrication and wear resistance. It also helps retard corrosion as long as it is sealed. Waxes are commonly considered the best lubricants with silicone wax being the best for moderate heat levels and paraffin for cool and cold lubrication. Basically the aluminum alloy frames on a semi auto are not particularly prone to wear except on the rails. Good lubrication is key to preventing galling and wear. (much the same as with steel guns)
If you want ensure it will never break, have some spare parts handy to fix it. NOTHING I have spare parts for ever breaks. However I could own and anvil and it would break if it knew I didn't have an extra one.
Seriously though I think your over thinking this.
Is aluminum less durable then well made steel? Yes.
Is polymer in the SHORT TERM as or more durable then steel? Probably.
Is an alloy SIG or Beretta a cheap disposable handgun?? Hell no. Both have long track records serving militaries who don't really take care of them.
Unless you plan on putting ALOT of hot ammo through your gun I don't see why it wouldn't last basically in perpetuity. Replace springs/small parts as necessay.
I mean ALL GUNS can eventually be shot to failure.
CZ's sheer slide stops
1911s go through extractors and occasionally slide stops
HKs eat trigger return springs
SIGs crack
GLOCKS blow up
Berettas eat locking blocks
Colts go out of time if you speak harshly to them
Smiths lock themselves
Rugers need 18 trips back to the factory
Honestly if you want a gun that is likely the most bullet proof I have ever heard of, get a Makarov and be done with it. This things are about the most durable and reliable thing I have seen in the gun world. The cockroaches that survive the nuclear war will probably be fighting each other with Maks.
Point is I cannot think of a major gun maker who doesn't have some history of a systemic failure point of some kind or another. You buy what you like and prepare for that failure.
In your case, source some springs, extra locking blocks and use grease instead of oil and you will be golden for a long time. I realize you are much more limited and want the toughest you can source but you will be fine. Just do your best to use grease and source some extra parts if possible.
Chris.
Seriously though I think your over thinking this.
Is aluminum less durable then well made steel? Yes.
Is polymer in the SHORT TERM as or more durable then steel? Probably.
Is an alloy SIG or Beretta a cheap disposable handgun?? Hell no. Both have long track records serving militaries who don't really take care of them.
Unless you plan on putting ALOT of hot ammo through your gun I don't see why it wouldn't last basically in perpetuity. Replace springs/small parts as necessay.
I mean ALL GUNS can eventually be shot to failure.
CZ's sheer slide stops
1911s go through extractors and occasionally slide stops
HKs eat trigger return springs
SIGs crack
GLOCKS blow up
Berettas eat locking blocks
Colts go out of time if you speak harshly to them
Smiths lock themselves
Rugers need 18 trips back to the factory
Honestly if you want a gun that is likely the most bullet proof I have ever heard of, get a Makarov and be done with it. This things are about the most durable and reliable thing I have seen in the gun world. The cockroaches that survive the nuclear war will probably be fighting each other with Maks.
Point is I cannot think of a major gun maker who doesn't have some history of a systemic failure point of some kind or another. You buy what you like and prepare for that failure.
In your case, source some springs, extra locking blocks and use grease instead of oil and you will be golden for a long time. I realize you are much more limited and want the toughest you can source but you will be fine. Just do your best to use grease and source some extra parts if possible.
Chris.
The others interpreted my post correctly. My 92 shows wear to the finish. Mine is an Inox, so the stainless color of the frame is a paint-like coating. That is the finish that I referred to. Scuffed paint. Internal. Not eaten through. No shavings in the mechanism. The frame has no functional damage. The pistol looks and functions great, as I said in the part of the post that you chose not to quote.
I have a busy week and am not going to be able to do that in a timely manner. You have pictures from a pistol with a higher round count already, anyway, from someone who stepped up before I got back to the forum.
I bought my Taurus PT99 (adjustable sight version) in 1990 and it still shoots as well as ever. I have never replaced the locking block. My FiL has a Beretta 92 and the quality seems to be about the same. I also happen to own a Beretta 96 in 40 caliber. I feel that it's a very good design.
Here is a story that speaks of its sturdiness. My FiL does all of our reloading and is a very careful man. He finally had his first reloading error recently. It was his first time to reload 40 caliber. Apparently there was something wrong with the combination of bullet weight and powder load. We each shot about three rounds before things went wrong.
His polymer CZ, the full-sized one, I think it's the P09, cracked its frame. It was ruined. He had to sell it for parts. It was nearly new and had something like 200 rounds through it.
My Beretta is an old military or police surplus pistol. The frame looks like it has shot a lot of rounds. It's a Frankenstein pistol made of an Italian SA/DA frame with an American DAO slide. The load that destroyed my FiL's polymer CZ just made the Beretta disassemble itself a little bit. I reassembled it and it is just fine. It works as well as ever.
Don't worry about your Taurus. It will be okay.
Here is a story that speaks of its sturdiness. My FiL does all of our reloading and is a very careful man. He finally had his first reloading error recently. It was his first time to reload 40 caliber. Apparently there was something wrong with the combination of bullet weight and powder load. We each shot about three rounds before things went wrong.
His polymer CZ, the full-sized one, I think it's the P09, cracked its frame. It was ruined. He had to sell it for parts. It was nearly new and had something like 200 rounds through it.
My Beretta is an old military or police surplus pistol. The frame looks like it has shot a lot of rounds. It's a Frankenstein pistol made of an Italian SA/DA frame with an American DAO slide. The load that destroyed my FiL's polymer CZ just made the Beretta disassemble itself a little bit. I reassembled it and it is just fine. It works as well as ever.
Don't worry about your Taurus. It will be okay.
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In another thread you stated all you can afford to shoot is 12 rounds every two weeks. That means you will shoot 312 rounds in one year. That means it will take you over 3 years (3.2) to shoot a 1000 rounds. So to reach 3000 rounds will take 9.6 years at your current rate of shooting. And I seriously doubt your gun will be worn out at 3000 rounds.
This really sounds like much too much of nothing.
This really sounds like much too much of nothing.
One other thing is that S&W made the point that their aluminum framed guns (model 39) were made with aircraft grade aluminum used for landing gear on airplanes. I am guessing that the gear on aircraft get stressed harder and more often than the frames on handguns.
I don't know what Taurus/Beretta for frame material but I bet it is every bit as good as what S&W uses. I don't think you have a thing to worry about.
I don't know what Taurus/Beretta for frame material but I bet it is every bit as good as what S&W uses. I don't think you have a thing to worry about.
TheGuyOfSouthamerica
Moderator
I contacted Grayguns and they gave me this answer:
My question is which liquid grease I have to use? Waxes are locally not availlable.
I have this spanish liquid grease availlable:
Will this be compatible with the aluminum Frame? I don't want to wreck my alu Frame due to use of the improper grease.
I use this grease extensively on my reloading Equipment and Pietta SAA 357 mag Revolver. It is liquid then it solidifies and has a transparent shiny appearance.
My question is which liquid grease I have to use? Waxes are locally not availlable.
I have this spanish liquid grease availlable:
Webpage: http://www.krafft.es/en/hardware/pr...y/home-lubricants/grease-spray--grease-spray/
Will this be compatible with the aluminum Frame? I don't want to wreck my alu Frame due to use of the improper grease.
I use this grease extensively on my reloading Equipment and Pietta SAA 357 mag Revolver. It is liquid then it solidifies and has a transparent shiny appearance.