Do you get involved ? (Redux)

If I hit this dude (or he hits me) and the "hitter's" skinned knuckle encounters a open cut on the "hittee," there is a real good chance that blood borne pathogens will be exchanged. Think HIV, hepatitis, etc. Who in their right mind wants to risk this type of infection without first trying OC ??
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I completely agree with the use of spray deterents but the chance of blood pathogens being transfered in the circumstances you are putting forth as an example is far from "a good chance". In fact, it is at worst highly unlikely and at best almost impossible.
 
In fact, it is at worst highly unlikely and at best almost impossible.
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For AIDS I agree but not for Hep. If I bury my fist into an infected mouth with teeth piercing my fist and slobber and blood exposed to my wound.......I don't want to chance that.



Dawg, OC has been 100 percent effective for me in actual uses. I may put one on my key chain just for that in between event. One that rises to the level of deadly force but doesn't involve you or a weapon so an opportunity to end the situation without shooting may be available.
 
numerology

91........................year old victim
2..........................world war the victim fought in
22........................year old assailant
4 or 5...................witnesses
0..........................what they did to help
.45........................the caliber of the
1911......................the victim was probably familiar with
100's....................of useless gun laws denying the victim self defense
and
6..........................number of pallbearers for "deontae"
12.........................grand jurors in the aquittal if it happened here
 
Belated reply to Groundhog and Rantingredneck- mobile home mine: a piece-rate factory producing mobile homes. As piece rate indicates, the crew was paid by the unit, and went home when the production number for the day had been achieved. If your crew was fast you went home at 1300-1400, if not 1700-1800. The pace was a dead run from start of the day to finish. OSHA had not been invented, and there were a lot of blood trails leading to the tool crib (official check-in point for an injury) and out the door. There were a lot of peopole with less than 10 fingers. The supervisors handed out amphetamines to keep the peons running at full speed (pun intended). The job I did could not have been better designed to destroy the sacro-lumbar spine had that been the intention. I left the "mines" in 1979 and still have chronic pain for which I take heavy duty pain killers to live a normal life and probably will as long as I live. Now you know what I meant by "mobile home mines."
 
Call the police...tell them what happened & that the attacker has a GUN (shivers... :eek: )


Yell to the attacker "Police are on the way. Get away from the man!"....

If he continues the attack, intervene w/ OC or other means....

If he (or his buddies) comes toward you, shoot him....

If he runs, be a good witness & offer first aid...
 
I enjoyed TFL for a long time but had to join when I read the responses to this question. I don't know what angers me more, the video or several of the respones on this thread. Everyone has the right to respond in there own way, I just find it very disheartening to hear a bunch of self defense trained people that would respond with little or no force to ruthlessly stop this puke.

There are countless replies about being a good witness, don't put yourself in danger, punch the guy, oc the guy, call the cops, I could take 5 of them with my bare hands, etc. Several of these respones illustrate what is wrong with society, and why so many criminals get little resistance from bystanders.

Col Cooper says "Anyone who willfully and mailiciously attacks another without sufficient cause deserves no consideration - We are fully justified (i belive legally and moraly) in valuing the life and person of an intended victim more highly than the life of a pernicious assailant. The attacker must be stopped. At once and completely. Your first concern is to stay alive, let the attacker worry about his life. Don't hold back. - Take no chances. Put him out."

The law permits (at least in Indiana) using deadly force to prevent felonious assault on yourself or another person (even property). It is also a moral obligation to stop it.

The most this guy deserves is a quick shout "STOP", with your gun drawn. If he does not cease in a millisecond, shoot the puke and any of his buddies that show aggression.

Why would anyone carrying a gun entertain a physical fight or OC with this guy. This guy has lived a life of physical violence. Why give him that benefit? He won't give you or the old man ANY benefit. The guy gets a lucky punch and your screwed. You OC him, then he pulls a gun and starts shooting - now things are ALOT more complicated and good people die. You grapple with this puke and he pulls a knife or a gun and your screwed! Grapple with a piece of trash? For what? So you don't hurt or kill someone, or to avoid legal problems? This puke is not worth jeopardizing your life and or your family more than needed. He chose deadly force first. Any of those punches could have killed that old man.

IMO, if you get involved, be prepared to get ruthless quick. It is not your obligation to jeopardize your life more than necessary to help someone, or jeorpardize your life so you can prevent shooting some piece of trash who is assaulting someone else. The thought of fist fighting (or OC) a puke, then drawing your gun when it gets ugly is ridiculous and not our obligation. Read what Jeff Cooper wrote, and do what he says.
 
Who made Cooper God? Seems to me that if he was as smart ,as many would like to think that he was, he would have made the rank of General. His opinions are as valid as any other mans. I have seen too many men that only reached the rank of Col. and they all think that their **** don't stink. But of course all **** stinks. Oddly enough many men that have reached the rank of Gen. seem to have a bit more modesty. Either way, people can place whomever they wish upon a pedestal, and you can bet there will be someone who will knock them off it too. Glad to get your opinion as well sir. Thank you.
 
UN CALLED FOR Slugthrower. TOTALLY UNSAT. Not the 1st time either from other posts of yours I've read. When did you make Colonel?.....General?......1st Leuy?

Your lack of respect and tendecy to verbally snipe from your anonimity STRONGLY reflect on your charachter and credibility. The man EARNED his respect and credibility and the fact that it is so widely reguarded ought to cause one to examine more openly rather then lay into him.

I believe you owe yet another apology post.

Anyone concur?
 
There's only one possible response for me:

Attack.

Fast, hard, silent, with no warning. Start off with a hammer fist to the head, then two or three hard knee shots to the ribs. Break bones, do damage.

He'll be doubled up then, just in time for the coup de grace--a good kickback throw, HARD, a hard slap and a figure 4 takedown, or even a Liverpool kiss-knee to the face.

Get the trash out of the way FIRST, then call police and aid while tending to the victim.

I learned one thing growing up where I did: when people get crazy, get crazier. No one attacks a snarling, rabid, wolf.
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You forgot the part where his buddies that you weren't aware were there jump out and beat you do within an inch of your life. Good move.
Learn from others experiences. Me and a buddy back in our very early 20's got into a fight over a road rage incident one time. These two guys got out of their car so we got out of ours and were all ready to go at it when their 3 other buddies we didn't realise were there got out of the truck in front of them and we got the snot beat out of us. Times have changed, and not for the better. Chances are in this day and age, the 3 from the truck would have had at least one armed guy and we wouldn't have been able to be lucky enough to walk away sore and bruised-both faces and egos.
Get involved but do foolishly put yourself in harm's way.
 
Learn from others experiences.
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AMEN! Lot's of talk here, and I think lots of bluster, but there is one factor that I don't think anyone has brought up---the more your involvement the greater the likelhood that you don't walk away from it unscathed. It might be nice to help a 91-year old man who is getting beaten up. Is it nice enough for your wife and children to never see you again? That is what happened to one of my friends years ago. He intervened in an old man-young man fight in a parking lot, and one of the crowd stepped up and put a .25 ACP round into his heart. He died right there. BTW, the fight was over drugs. Old folks can be criminals too, you know.
Just something to think about.
 
I think if you are physically and mentally capable, it is at least a civic obligation to intervene. For me, it is a peronal obligation.

For me, it is part of what being a man is. And God, expects us to stop ruthless savages from hurting innocent people.

It is part of why I carry a gun, part of why I have gone thru several Gunsite classes, part of why I have practiced with thousands of rounds of handgun and pistol ammo, part of why I mentally stay alert of my surroundings. Not so I can go out and shoot someone, but so I can defend myself, my family and help another innocent person from trash and scum that live everyday with no regard toward decent people.

You don't have to intervene like most people on TFL recommend. You can be like the guy who watched that fat off duty cop beat that female bartender and did nothing. You could be like the countless other millions of people who watch someone get beat, mugged, robbed or raped and do nothing. For me, I would not be able to live with myself if I sheepishly crawled away like a coward while someone's mother or grandfather was being threatened with death and I was right there with the equipment and the training to help and did not. I wouldn't want one of my 5 kids to see me on a security camera cower away on my belly.

IF this is your course of action, and you can live with it:
"Well I called the cops and yelled at the bad guy, but he still killed that innocnet person right in front of me".
or
"I tried to punch him so I wouldn't have to shoot him first, but I didn't know he had a gun and would pull it so quick and start shooting people"
or
"I spent so much time deciding if I was safe and could avoid legal problems, that someone died and the bad guy got away to do it again"
or
"I didn't think he would really jam that screwdriver thru that young female clerk's throat, and I told him not to".
or
"someone died and my gun never left the holster, because I was indecisive".
If you can live with your handling it that way, go for it. Enjoy your safe life. The criminals are counting on you.

To each his own according to his own, but, I would really look at how the experts recommend you handle it, and combine that with what you can handle. :(
 
Speaking freely is a personal problem that I do have. The only real problem is that others do not like honest opinions. We all know what opinions are like. They will not please everyone. Candy coating ones replies is as deceitful as the average politician's rhetoric. I can only wish the Col. Cooper was still alive. May God rest his soul. I am sure that he would give me a piece of his mind as well.

As for entering or exiting a fight unscathed, wether it is a gun fight or a fist fight. You most likely will not come out unscathed. Guns are just an easy way to win a fight. Why do people think that the only answer to any problem is a gun? Killing a man with a gun isn't justified if that man is unarmed. We can just ignore the old guy being beaten to death by a sick and depraved man if they like. You can pull a gun and hope that it wards off the attacker/attackers. It would be just as easy to have your own gun used on oneself. If they fail to hit all the potential assailants and the BG's have enough courage to close that distance to make contact, they will probably have that gun used on them. So many today want to have things made right without any risk to their person. It just doesn't work that way. If the Founders thought only for their self preservation we wouldn't have the liberties that we have today.

No, I never made that high of a rank within the armed services, I chose not to make it my life as Col. Cooper did. Not all people are born into circumstances that allow them to be a commissioned officer. Enlisted folks can go green to gold, that is if you are given the opportunity to do so. Granted my service to my country was short. There were external events and internal ones that lead me to end my service. Without going into detail, the US Army didn't seem to give a care for personal matters that were of family in nature. My loyalties are more to the well being of my own mother, than to an abstract and often twisted position of patriotism and loyalty to a machine that is in the business of killing peoples.

Character and credibility, those are measures that take many years in a persons presence to fully comprehend. It isn't something that can be measured by a few posts that are rough and not comprehensive in nature.

In order to fully understand where a person comes from they will have had to walked in that persons shoes for a long time. Granted, I have said many things that are not real pretty and gentleman like. I am no gentleman. You can take the man out of the ghetto, but it isn't as easy to take the ghetto out of the man. Suffice it to say that some men do the dirty work so that other will not have to dirty themselves. Either way we are free to express opinions and we also know that we will be rebuked for our transgressions as well. Thank you for sharing yours as well. This is what make America such a great place to have been born into. To all, thank you and may your sensibilities be not so tender as to be easily hurt. If my statements have hurt you, understand that there is no right in our Constitution to not being offended. Having said that, I apologize for that offence. Peace and good will to you.
 
Slugthrower, thanks for the spirited passionate debate, it is healthy to share differing points, we can all grow from them.

Her are some humble opinions about wahat you had to say...

Who made Cooper God?
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No one, and I'm sure his s**t did stink, but he is also regarded by many as the father of most modern techniques, mindsets and theories.

Why do people think that the only answer to any problem is a gun?
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Most people dont think a gun is the ONLY answer, just the safest when dealing with the immediate threat of serious harm or death from a puke. Your safety and the safety of the victim is what matters, not the puke.

Killing a man with a gun isn't justified if that man is unarmed.
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imo, WRONG WRONG WRONG ! How do you know he isn't armed? When punching someone in the face, his hands are weapons. A screwdriver to someones throat is a deadly weapon. Why wait until he produces a gun? When faced with imminent serious harm or death, why put yourself in more jeopardy by waiting for him to produce a weapon.

Killing someone who is projecting serious harm or death on an innocent IS justified, morally and legally.
 
Who made Cooper God? Seems to me that if he was as smart ,as many would like to think that he was, he would have made the rank of General. His opinions are as valid as any other mans. I have seen too many men that only reached the rank of Col. and they all think that their **** don't stink.
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First of all, Jeff Cooper saw the elephant. It was a proven, documented fact that he has killed men in combat, with handguns and rifles, at close and long range. How many incidents of mortal combat have YOU engaged in?

As far as being smart, do you know what is required to be promoted to O-7 (BG) and above?

As far as being smart is concerned, there is another Colonel that has written at length about armed combat, and that is Col. Charles Askins. Any comments about him?

By the way, since you have seen "so many" men reach the rank of COL, what rank were you?

Also,

You forgot the part where his buddies that you weren't aware were there jump out and beat you do within an inch of your life. Good move.
Learn from others experiences.
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I believe that you meant well by that post. Let me tell you just a bit about my background. I was born and raised in the inner city--the City of Chicago, that is. My life, until I was 18, was spent in both the Robert Taylor homes and the Englewood District. Do a search on them, and you'll know what I'm getting at. I experienced and witnessed more violent crime in one week than most people see their entire lives. Nothing to be proud of, to be sure--it's just the nature of where I lived.

By the way, the moves I mentioned can be done in about 15-20 seconds, if you move with a purpose.

And what I said still stands. Hesitate or show fear, even for a second, and your adversary will be all over you.

Just what I have learned from "other people's experiences". ;)
 
would i

I'd be there in a heartbeat...that kind of B.S. doesn't happen down here in Texas. Once I got done with the carjacker, I just might have to knock some sense into those standing by...No excuse at all...I, too, would like to see how 5'9" slim build does against 6'3" 285 lb. ex-linebacker/farmboy turned bouncer.
 
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