Do you get involved ? (Redux)
- Thread starter Slugthrower
- Start date
uuuummmm, first an arm bar and slamming him against the car may sound great in theory...... but theres a few problems, he is punching wildly with one hand and he can easily turn to either foil the hold or beat your brains in. the choke hold was brought up because of the angle of attack, from behind you can gain more control over the assailant faster and more effectivily. not saying the arm bar MIGHT not work but it is definitily more risky, time consuming and more tiring, also in order to arm bar him against the car you would have to turn your back to the people standing there, who may or may not be in on it. those little details are what makes or breaks a technique especially when your life depends on your decision.
Big Calhoun
New member
Interesting that I caught this thread as I had my first hedgy situation a few weeks ago since obtaining my CHL.
Basically I was at my local laundromat and arrived in the middle of two, what I believe to be, gangbangers harrasing a guy who was doing some landscaping work. Because of their position, I chose to stay near my car rather than cross in the middle of the situation to get into the laundromat.
The harrasment consisted of intimidation and verbal abuse. It was 2-on-1 and the 2 postioned as if to possibly 'jump' the landscaper. While the entire incident lasted maybe 1.5 minutes, there were some clear thoughts in my head:
- I wasn't going to intervene if it was a fair 1-on-1 fight, although I would have called the cops.
- I didn't want any of the gangbangers behind me; I wanted to have a total eye on the situation at all times.
- My main focus was remembering their faces, clothing, and the car they drove away in for future reference.
As it turned out, the harrasment ended and the two punks drove away. Had the dynamics of the situation changed, who knows what the outcome would have been. But that's just it, it's about the dynamics. IMO, some situations call for intervention to prevent loss of life or some kind of greater tragedy. Others must be measured and sometimes the best course of action is just simple observation.
Had my situation came to a point where I had to intervene with my weapon, what would be the outcome now? If the two were infact members of a gang, could I be subject to retaliation? Would my wife and property be safe while I'm at work? Could the two have also had weapons and it turned into a gun fight? There's just no telling.
It's all about situational awareness and rationale thought.
Basically I was at my local laundromat and arrived in the middle of two, what I believe to be, gangbangers harrasing a guy who was doing some landscaping work. Because of their position, I chose to stay near my car rather than cross in the middle of the situation to get into the laundromat.
The harrasment consisted of intimidation and verbal abuse. It was 2-on-1 and the 2 postioned as if to possibly 'jump' the landscaper. While the entire incident lasted maybe 1.5 minutes, there were some clear thoughts in my head:
- I wasn't going to intervene if it was a fair 1-on-1 fight, although I would have called the cops.
- I didn't want any of the gangbangers behind me; I wanted to have a total eye on the situation at all times.
- My main focus was remembering their faces, clothing, and the car they drove away in for future reference.
As it turned out, the harrasment ended and the two punks drove away. Had the dynamics of the situation changed, who knows what the outcome would have been. But that's just it, it's about the dynamics. IMO, some situations call for intervention to prevent loss of life or some kind of greater tragedy. Others must be measured and sometimes the best course of action is just simple observation.
Had my situation came to a point where I had to intervene with my weapon, what would be the outcome now? If the two were infact members of a gang, could I be subject to retaliation? Would my wife and property be safe while I'm at work? Could the two have also had weapons and it turned into a gun fight? There's just no telling.
It's all about situational awareness and rationale thought.
I love some of the bluster that gets put on here. I wonder what kind of emotional responses would be put here had the headline read "Former Pimp beaten in Parking Lot"? Bet there'd be a whole ton of "That's Justice/Karma" comments instead of the "I'd kick the Vet beaters keister"! ones. Do you people who post like that even bother to analyze the situation? I'll start a new thread on that. What did you have here?
1. Parking lot of a small store of some kind next to busy main road.
2. Big enough perp beating UNIDENTIFIED man. From the video, I can't tell that the guy is 91 or even old.
3. Guy is not fighting back.
4. At least 5 (yes count them... FIVE) people are next to this situation and don't appear to be doing anything.
As much as you WANT to do something to help this man, and no matter how HARDWIRED you are to help, at the very least, you ought to have one or two brain cells firing saying "This may get you killed, just thought you might want to consider that before your emotions take over".
I am sure that there are some on this forum that would not bother to help at all, but all in all, it seems that most would do something. I think the real idea here is how smart would you be about it?
1. Call cops from safe area, stick around to be a good witness? You have helped him.
2. Call cops and then expose yourself yelling they are coming to BG? You have still helped him, but now the BG may come after you (or flee).
3. Join in the fight to attempt to end it? If you called the cops first, you undoubtedly helped. If not, you may just be another body laying there afterward. Helping this way could go either way.
4. Draw down on the guy? Now you got a whole can of worms open depending on the variables. I'm not saying don't, but are you ready for any possible outcome of that?
It's not about NOT helping. I don't think I've seen a post yet that is that blatant. It's about how smart you are when you DO help. If intervening to the point of your own death in this situation or any other is what you would do, I applaud you as long as you have thought about it. If you think that everyone should do that, perhaps you could share why you think that way instead of disparaging other posters opinions on why or if they would help.
1. Parking lot of a small store of some kind next to busy main road.
2. Big enough perp beating UNIDENTIFIED man. From the video, I can't tell that the guy is 91 or even old.
3. Guy is not fighting back.
4. At least 5 (yes count them... FIVE) people are next to this situation and don't appear to be doing anything.
As much as you WANT to do something to help this man, and no matter how HARDWIRED you are to help, at the very least, you ought to have one or two brain cells firing saying "This may get you killed, just thought you might want to consider that before your emotions take over".
I am sure that there are some on this forum that would not bother to help at all, but all in all, it seems that most would do something. I think the real idea here is how smart would you be about it?
1. Call cops from safe area, stick around to be a good witness? You have helped him.
2. Call cops and then expose yourself yelling they are coming to BG? You have still helped him, but now the BG may come after you (or flee).
3. Join in the fight to attempt to end it? If you called the cops first, you undoubtedly helped. If not, you may just be another body laying there afterward. Helping this way could go either way.
4. Draw down on the guy? Now you got a whole can of worms open depending on the variables. I'm not saying don't, but are you ready for any possible outcome of that?
It's not about NOT helping. I don't think I've seen a post yet that is that blatant. It's about how smart you are when you DO help. If intervening to the point of your own death in this situation or any other is what you would do, I applaud you as long as you have thought about it. If you think that everyone should do that, perhaps you could share why you think that way instead of disparaging other posters opinions on why or if they would help.
91 year old man being pummeled. He certainly appeared to be in danger of losing his life.
In this situation - I dont know if you have time to make that 911 call before intervention.
Some training is required before you can do this well - but a kick to the kneecap of this offender from behind - followed up with a couple of punches to his kidneys would certainly bring him down.
After he is down - hold him at gunpoint - while calling 911.
Or you could certainly use Doug's pistol whipping suggestion.
In this situation - I dont know if you have time to make that 911 call before intervention.
Some training is required before you can do this well - but a kick to the kneecap of this offender from behind - followed up with a couple of punches to his kidneys would certainly bring him down.
After he is down - hold him at gunpoint - while calling 911.
Or you could certainly use Doug's pistol whipping suggestion.
john in jax
New member
I or someone with me would dial 911 to get help rolling, then I'd have to do whatever I could to stop the situation.
If I happened to be packing (no, I don't carry all the time) I'm sure the gun would have, at the very least, been drawn.
If not armed I tend to like big, heavy belt buckles, that might have got his attention when I struck him with it as hard and often as I could (? Marine style ?).
If all else fails I'm 6'0", 300lbs and pretty good at throwing my weight around. Hand to hand would be my last choice, but I could not stand by chatting with the 911 operator while a senior citizen is beat-up by a thug. I just wasn't raised that way.
If I happened to be packing (no, I don't carry all the time) I'm sure the gun would have, at the very least, been drawn.
If not armed I tend to like big, heavy belt buckles, that might have got his attention when I struck him with it as hard and often as I could (? Marine style ?).
If all else fails I'm 6'0", 300lbs and pretty good at throwing my weight around. Hand to hand would be my last choice, but I could not stand by chatting with the 911 operator while a senior citizen is beat-up by a thug. I just wasn't raised that way.
rantingredneck
New member
Indeed. Your enemy rarely acts according to script.
Not really
I got scars on my scars from fighting. never been knocked out either in the ring or out Dad wanted a pair of boxers, me and my brother was it.When we was kids on the farm, Dad would "pit" us for his entertainment, we didnt know better and went at it with everything we had. Then golden gloves stuff and on.
As many times as that guy got hit, I take my hat off to him, he is one tough old guy.
Lets understand that the situation is dynamic. If you pre-plan then your mind is pre-set and not able to adjust fast enough for the situation. Your actions must be instictive rather than pre-planed.
ok first i said nothing about "pre-planning". i was talking about using the most effective methods to handle the situation, of coarse it is dynamic it's a street fight.... as ive stated earlier i have been in more than my fair share of these situations, everything i do while engaged in a fight/mugging has become instinctive.... like you said..... but the only difference here is how effective your training was therefore how effective your insticts are .... for example i saw this situation and immediatily knew that a choke hold followed by a throw would be the most effective way to stop the assailant and simultaniousily keeping me in a superior and safe position from the assainlant and the possible assailants standing close by... and your gut reaction was to grab his arm and TRY to place him in an arm bar.... all this while he is swinging .... not to mention turning your back on 5 other possible attackers.... like i said before, it depends on experience, if your not adaquitly trained and seasoned (not to mention level headed) to help then don't, stay away and call for help, that is always the smart thing to do.
ok first i said nothing about "pre-planning". i was talking about using the most effective methods to handle the situation, of coarse it is dynamic it's a street fight.... as ive stated earlier i have been in more than my fair share of these situations, everything i do while engaged in a fight/mugging has become instinctive.... like you said..... but the only difference here is how effective your training was therefore how effective your insticts are .... for example i saw this situation and immediatily knew that a choke hold followed by a throw would be the most effective way to stop the assailant and simultaniousily keeping me in a superior and safe position from the assainlant and the possible assailants standing close by... and your gut reaction was to grab his arm and TRY to place him in an arm bar.... all this while he is swinging .... not to mention turning your back on 5 other possible attackers.... like i said before, it depends on experience, if your not adaquitly trained and seasoned (not to mention level headed) to help then don't, stay away and call for help, that is always the smart thing to do.
The guy's a punk, straight up. He attacked an old man--who is a LOT tougher than he looks, judging from the fact that he's still around after all those punches.
There's only one possible response for me:
Attack.
Fast, hard, silent, with no warning. Start off with a hammer fist to the head, then two or three hard knee shots to the ribs. Break bones, do damage.
He'll be doubled up then, just in time for the coup de grace--a good kickback throw, HARD, a hard slap and a figure 4 takedown, or even a Liverpool kiss-knee to the face.
Get the trash out of the way FIRST, then call police and aid while tending to the victim.
I learned one thing growing up where I did: when people get crazy, get crazier. No one attacks a snarling, rabid, wolf.
There's only one possible response for me:
Attack.
Fast, hard, silent, with no warning. Start off with a hammer fist to the head, then two or three hard knee shots to the ribs. Break bones, do damage.
He'll be doubled up then, just in time for the coup de grace--a good kickback throw, HARD, a hard slap and a figure 4 takedown, or even a Liverpool kiss-knee to the face.
Get the trash out of the way FIRST, then call police and aid while tending to the victim.
I learned one thing growing up where I did: when people get crazy, get crazier. No one attacks a snarling, rabid, wolf.
OC is only 90% effective eh. Wow. No use trying that. Might get the crazed psyco beating on the old man more aggresive. Might sting your eyes too, or the old vet's.
Just curious, I'm new here so please give me a bit of clearance if I'm tappin on the line here, I have a sense that Lurper is playing around a bit with a passive aggresive tact. Am I the only one sensing that? Taking cover from the sacred 'cautous and prudent' cloak to jab at those with valid, genuine, practicle aproaches to this scenerio that DON'T envolve joining the rest of the crown of cell phone users there.
Guys. Really. OC isn''t a VERY good option here? C'MON.
Think...ACT...keep thinking. If your not going to act in THIS scenerio then when in the world would you?
I know. He'll be sanctimouniously 'correcting' me soon with a thinly veiled poke cloaked in 'advised judgement'.
As for the crowd........address ALL of them. Not just the assailant. The cohorts will cue you and you'll know right where your at.
top of your lungs hard preturbed tone "ALRIGHT....EVERYONE BACK 8 FEET FROM THE VEHICLE NOW MOVE 8 FEET MOVE MOVE. " [who's not moving -hands] To assailant. Step back! DO IT NOW NOW NOW" [whoever is not moving now is fair to present to]to assailaint and those that aren't complying..." MOVE AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE NOW NOW MOVE HANDS HANDS LET ME SEE EM NOW NOW TAKE A KNEE TAKE A KNEE DO DOIT NOW NOW HANDS HANDS"
Not a script but agresive enough to seperate the sheeple from the BGs and take control. NO HINT of anything other that HARD and PERTURBED till LEO shows.
Just curious, I'm new here so please give me a bit of clearance if I'm tappin on the line here, I have a sense that Lurper is playing around a bit with a passive aggresive tact. Am I the only one sensing that? Taking cover from the sacred 'cautous and prudent' cloak to jab at those with valid, genuine, practicle aproaches to this scenerio that DON'T envolve joining the rest of the crown of cell phone users there.
Guys. Really. OC isn''t a VERY good option here? C'MON.
Think...ACT...keep thinking. If your not going to act in THIS scenerio then when in the world would you?
I know. He'll be sanctimouniously 'correcting' me soon with a thinly veiled poke cloaked in 'advised judgement'.
As for the crowd........address ALL of them. Not just the assailant. The cohorts will cue you and you'll know right where your at.
top of your lungs hard preturbed tone "ALRIGHT....EVERYONE BACK 8 FEET FROM THE VEHICLE NOW MOVE 8 FEET MOVE MOVE. " [who's not moving -hands] To assailant. Step back! DO IT NOW NOW NOW" [whoever is not moving now is fair to present to]to assailaint and those that aren't complying..." MOVE AWAY FROM THE VEHICLE NOW NOW MOVE HANDS HANDS LET ME SEE EM NOW NOW TAKE A KNEE TAKE A KNEE DO DOIT NOW NOW HANDS HANDS"
Not a script but agresive enough to seperate the sheeple from the BGs and take control. NO HINT of anything other that HARD and PERTURBED till LEO shows.
Bruxley, OC pepper is great but it does have a down side and most of us don't carry it. I don't carry it because I'm not compelled (like law enforcement) to arrest/intervene/stop violent criminals. If a violent criminal attacks me my gun will be used. If a violent criminal attacks you (if I decide to help)my gun will be used. The gray area in between that might be better served with less than lethal force will have to be dealt with by using my gun or simply not getting involved. In this case drawing and using forceful language (as you posted previously) will more times than not end the threat. The downsides to Pepper are ineffectiveness on 10 percent of the population (especially those on drugs). Wind supported return fire turning you into an armed Ray Charles. Not being ready with lethal force as you focus on deploying pepper is another downside.
I just re-read through both threads on this. I've asked questions and opinionated a bit but I guess I never committed as to what I would do. There are still some blanks to fill in so I'll do that too.
Now, to incur the wrath of both the "don't get involved" and "go postal on him" crowds, here I go:
Joe Blow untrained me either walks out of the store or into the parking lot somehow and sees the action. I'm alone so no family to protect. Cell phone comes out, 911 is being dialed. I would attempt to make sure no one was behind me or could easily get that way. If the perp did not see me get the phone, yell that I'm calling the cops. Uncover and prepare to draw if needed. At that point, it would be what happens next that would determine any future actions. I don't want to speculate about that since I think it goes beyond what we saw and could assume. I'll go this far though, if he did not stop the beating after hearing or seeing me on the phone I would probably yell for him to do so. At that point, I am fairly sure that some other action would ensue. It would be difficult to get a shot off on the BG from either the front or back without endangering the victim.
For those that have hand to hand skill and are in shape and have their heads screwed on straight, I can't say that direct intervention would necessarily be a bad thing here. I just know I couldn't do it.
Now, to incur the wrath of both the "don't get involved" and "go postal on him" crowds, here I go:
Joe Blow untrained me either walks out of the store or into the parking lot somehow and sees the action. I'm alone so no family to protect. Cell phone comes out, 911 is being dialed. I would attempt to make sure no one was behind me or could easily get that way. If the perp did not see me get the phone, yell that I'm calling the cops. Uncover and prepare to draw if needed. At that point, it would be what happens next that would determine any future actions. I don't want to speculate about that since I think it goes beyond what we saw and could assume. I'll go this far though, if he did not stop the beating after hearing or seeing me on the phone I would probably yell for him to do so. At that point, I am fairly sure that some other action would ensue. It would be difficult to get a shot off on the BG from either the front or back without endangering the victim.
For those that have hand to hand skill and are in shape and have their heads screwed on straight, I can't say that direct intervention would necessarily be a bad thing here. I just know I couldn't do it.
Just a comment (not a flame).
I'm not compelled to intervene with VCA's either. But I carry OC all the time - especially when I carry a handgun (Which is 98% of the time. The 2% is when I'm in a NPE).
I believe OC is a great "in-between" response. Yeah, it only works 90-95% of the time, but those are pretty good odds.
Yeah, you can get blowback. But I carry Fox with a "stream" nozzle. Blowback is pretty unlikely.
Now for the "Why I carry OC". I do not plan to get into a fistfight with a VCA for two reasons: (1) I'm pretty old with limited mobility and More Importantly (2) I don't want to get into an exchange of bodily fluids with some gang-banger.
If I hit this dude (or he hits me) and the "hitter's" skinned knuckle encounters a open cut on the "hittee," there is a real good chance that blood borne pathogens will be exchanged. Think HIV, hepatitis, etc. Who in their right mind wants to risk this type of infection without first trying OC ??
Here in my state (Louisiana), and in most states, I'll be on thin ice trying to explain why I shot an unarmed dude who wanted to fight me. For me Plan "A" is de-escalate and/or leave. Plan "B" is OC. Plan "C" (depending on circumstances) is a Glock 19. If there are states that allow citizens to legally use deadly force against any "violent criminal," I can only wish that my legislature would pass a similar law here.
For most folks, I respectfully suggest that a two ounce can of OC may be a reasonable tool for intervention. The Fox "stream" nozzle gives a range of 15 to 20 feet. Try it. practice with it. Consider carrying it.