Do you get involved ? (Redux)

Glenn
You and I agree on the basic premise, those who elect to enter a grappling contest border on folly.
Not to hijack the thread, but just for you, I researched efficiency of OC and found this article from Harvard that is obviously pro OC. They concluded that it is 90% effective. But, thier sample was small - less than 200. However, I did find this interesting:

Effectiveness of OC use
Overall, OC was very effective in the
194 incidents where it was used (see
“Officers’ Comments on OC”on page 6).
A total of 156 (90 percent) of the 174
individuals sprayed were incapacitated
enough to be effectively arrested.
Data indicate that almost all officers
applied OC to the suspect’s face, as
they had been directed in training.
However, officers generally did not
spray from a distance of 4 to 6 feet as
instructed. In 144 incidents, the spray
was activated at a distance of 3 feet or
less; in 102 of these, OC was sprayed
at a distance of 2 feet or less. As a result,
OC may not have been maximally
effective.
Yet the data show that OC worked
even if it was not sprayed from the distance
suggested by the manufacturer.
In 144 incidents, only one spray was
required to incapacitate a subject; officers
used the full contents of an issued
container of OC to control
suspects in four separate incidents. No
data indicated that spraying more than
one short burst produced better effects,
if the subject were given a
“good” spray the first time. The data
showed that 117 individuals (67 percent)
were classified by officers as
submissive after the OC had been applied;
27 individuals (16 percent) were
listed as complying with officer instructions
after being sprayed (see exhibit
3). The difference between the
terms “submissive” and “compliant” is
subtle,2 and it might be more appropriate
to collapse the two categories into
one. When the categories are collapsed,
144 (83 percent) of the 174 subjects
were sufficiently neutralized to yield to
officer orders. Thirty individuals (17
percent) struggled or otherwise failed
to follow officer instructions.
Eighteen of these 30 struggling subjects
were classified by officers as not
fully incapacitated by the OC spray.
According to officer reports, the OC
had no effect on seven suspects. These
seven individuals exhibited drugged
behavior or seemed to have emotional
problems. These data indicate that individuals
who are heavily intoxicated,
drugged, or mentally unstable may be
resistant or immune to OC’s effects or
that OC may actually exacerbate the
difficulty associated with controlling
such persons.3 Additionally, these
types of encounters may cause the officer
to be cross-contaminated if the
incident escalates to a physical confrontation.
BCoPD’s experience indicates
that training officers may want to
stress the importance of accurately assessing
the likely impact of pepper
spray in such an encounter and of being
prepared to select another control
alternative.

So, I think it is safe to say that it is not the magic bullet some say. In fact if you check out the current issue of Police News, they use almost those exact words to summarize OC.
 
There's a DOJ report that quite similar. My point is that the efficacy is quite high. In the incident in question - if you spray the BG - the odds are that it would work and you avoid grappling and/or shooting the guy.

That's my problem with your analyses of OC - everything has a failure rate but I think that OC works well enough that it is reasonable to deploy here.

I wouldn't in a knife situation.

About the sample size - if you wanted to test whether something was 90% effective with a confidence interval of 5% - you need about 40 subjects. I used the formulas from Borden and Abott's Research Design and Methods book.
 
Shot to the back of the head,with fist,that is the vision center of the brain.
Then keep hitting,don't stop until he drops.Just like he did to his victum
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While five of the BG's buddies come up behind you with their own kind of "shot to the back of the head"....not the best option!
Step one has to be call 911...get back-up!
 
Cap - the OC digression was because of my suggestion that using OC would be a good option as compared to the Cobra Clutch or Ninja Atomic Death Blow. :D

Lurper disagrees with it being a good option. We don't have to replay the LTL story again, I agree.

I suppose no one wants to suggest projectile vomiting. :barf:

Thus, getting involved with OC is an option for moi.
 
Glenn, I was kidding about using a RNC on this guy. I was angry after watching the video and wished that someone would choke the life out of that thug.

As a side note though I have been choked and choked others to tap out and it didn't take long. I doubt that I could deploy a knife if it was in a pocket, waist, or boot before blacking out.
 
OC pepper is great. I have used it twice to subdue a violent shoplifter. Once police had to call paramedics and they even put his shirt in a hazmat bag. I swear that you would have thought that he was dying by his crys.

That said I don't carry OC outside of work so it isn't an option for me.
 
+1 on the rear naked choke,

I've been a bouncer a a nightclub for about 5 years in a pretty rough spot of town, been in more life or death fights than i care to remember... i've seen many occurances like these, where someone is being attacked and/or mugged, many times i was told by managment not to intervein.... most times though i could not just stand by, in my opinion helping that old man would have been more than worth the risk ( with my training and experience).

rear naked choke but followed by a quick takedown and attack if neccesary from the standing position while he is on the ground ( just in case the people standing around jump in. so far all great advice in this thread, im very impressed that most would help if they could.
 
Some by nature are risk takers and others are not. No weapon or technique is fool proof. Too many think of " Kung Fu" as infallible. Many schools of martial arts do not teach real combat. They will train in common forms yet will not allow a full out brawl type fight. Granted many would find it revolting to do so.

One thing is for sure intimidation plays a major role in any confrontation. Those that were bystanders and watched that happen most likely were being shown by that POS who is the alpha male. When you take down and seriously injure the baddest of the group the others will lack the courage to enter that fray. I have been enough fights to know this. I am sure that many here do not know what "fish hooking" is. Just know that it is illegal to use in any martial arts tournaments including the most brutal of them. The reason is that it will permanently disfigure a man and cripple him in addition to being exceptionally easy to do. That is only one dirty trick in my tool box and there are too many more to elaborate on. All that it takes is one hand and the willingness to grapple to fishhook a man. Yes I know that the possibility of the BG having a weapon is there. In this case I believe that this cowardly individual would have already produced his weapon if he had one. The others having weapons is a consideration. There again would they have the courage to use them? Especially when the toughest of them appears to be dead or dying in a fight that took mere seconds and they could be next? Using ones fists or open hands to achieve a "KO" is not a good idea. There are far better ways end a fight. Avoidance of course is the best idea of all.

Sometimes you must role the dice wether or not you like to gamble. Life itself is a gamble in many ways.
 
Long ago and far away.......

.........well not that far.......

....I got involved in a similar situation.

Two gangbanger wannabes cut off an elderly (70's maybe?) gentleman and got a dose of horn for it. From there it went downhill fast. This was one of those situations where the two punks in the one car were stalking the older fellow and taunting him from their car. You could see it going very badly. They followed him to a gas station, I followed them. I was just out of college and recently married (to my first wife), owned a pistol, but no carry permit so it was at home. I also had no cell phone at the time, they weren't nearly as prevalent as they are today and were much more expensive then (see college, recently married).

The older fellow pulled into a gas station and got out of his car. Bad move. The two were pulled in behind him with the driver out of his car and on him in seconds. No punches thrown, but he had him jacked up pinned inside his open door.

I pulled in behind them and as I got out of the car the passenger got out to meet me and got a face full of OC for his trouble. He went down screaming. The driver turned in time to catch a foot in the crotch. He jacknifed at the waist exposing the back of his neck for a nice shot at GB20. Down, semi conscious.

Had either of them been armed I could have (or would have) been shot, probably killed. Did I think about this before wading in? Not really. It was more reaction than anything. Why did I not OC the second guy? I really didn't have time to think about this during the event, but if I had I would have likely sprayed the older fellow I was helping, he was right over the BG's shoulder from me. I guess on some level I realized that, but there was no conscious thought of "hey don't spray".

After the second guy went down, I told the old fellow to hit the road fast, and I left. As a final FU to the two on the ground, and to make sure I didn't get followed, I locked their doors before leaving. I didn't wait around for the cops to come, I don't know if anyone actually called them. This happened at about 2:00 in the afternoon in a relatively busy part of town so I can't imagine that they weren't called. I expected to get a visit to come in to chat about the incident (figured someone got my license plate #) but nothing ever came of it. Never even got the old guy's name, nor did I give mine.

Now, today, with a wife (a different one) and two kids to go home to, I can't say I would have done the same thing I did then. Would I stop and get out of the car, probably. Would I call the cops and make sure the BG knew I was calling, probably. Would I physically get involved, either lethal or LTL, I don't know...........
 
I've been choked out too in classes. I also took the Insights Defensive Knife class and if you don't get the choke on correctly, the knife escapes would be unpleasant.

Anyway - I'm getting a little too old for a physical fight if I could use a distance weapon.

Sorry to be snippy, Threegun. It's a function of the internet warping my mind!

I've been in a couple of incidents where I thought I would have to step up as a moral person. Lucky for us, they resolved before that was necessary.
 
I worked with a fellow we'll call Big Eddie. Nothing offended Big Eddie like seeing a man abuse a woman. (Note at this point that Big eddie used to kick holes in the walls of a mobile home higher than his head, and he stood 6'3"- we worked in a mobile home mine). Once when leaving the store Big Eddie saw a man smack a woman in the parking lot. This offended B.E. to the point that when he left, the ignoble fellow was a sack of skin with bones sticking out. No weapons involved. B.E. could have been in Apocalypto as one of the warriors- I'm not endowed with his physical prowess. For me it's shoot or nothing. Getting involved would inevitably involve a weapon beef, which changes the equation a lot. Helping others is noble, but I don't want the rest of my life blighted by lawyers.
 
My guess is it's a place that takes in used mobile homes and strips them for salvageable or recyclable parts? Only a guess mind you...........
 
Many schools of martial arts do not teach real combat. They will train in common forms yet will not allow a full out brawl type fight. Granted many would find it revolting to do so.
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And that is the flaw in that training. You are trained to fight in a match with no desire to seriously injure your opponent. Remember, you'll fight like you train.
 
Glenn, While writing my response earlier a friend and customer at the Pawn Shop I work began running his cake hole that I, all 5'8" 180lbs, couldn't choke him to submission before he got me off. I learned that a miss applied choke attempt is not fun especially from a 6 plus foot 235 pound walking muscle. He learned that a correctly applied choke is bad real bad. I swear that when I bore down he tapped instantly. I have to say that you are correct if the choke is missed or defensed (hand or chin drop) it is useless. If done correctly it can turn a man mountain into a mush pile.

No matter because my hand fighting days are over also. My Glock and Puma are my protection now.
 
Let's understand, the choke hold is the use of lethal force. Lethal force is defined as that which is reasonable believed to be likely to cause death or serious injury. So lets look at it like a lawyer. If you are behind the guy to choke him, why then could you not flee? Was he a threat at that point? Remember that in most states you must stop hostility at the point that the other guy is no longer reasonably a threat. If you continue beyond that point then you are comitting the assault.
 
Let's understand, the choke hold is the use of lethal force. Lethal force is defined as that which is reasonable believed to be likely to cause death or serious injury. So lets look at it like a lawyer. If you are behind the guy to choke him, why then could you not flee? Was he a threat at that point? Remember that in most states you must stop hostility at the point that the other guy is no longer reasonably a threat. If you continue beyond that point then you are comitting the assault.
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This is not a question of self-defence. It's a question of helping a person that's 91 years old, trapped between a car door and the car parked beside him and getting the crap beat out of him by someone trying to jack his car. What kind of gutless, Godless, uncaring person wouldn't help him? Sometimes I'm ashamed of the whole human race.

badbob
 
This is not a question of self-defence. It's a question of helping a person that's 91 years old, trapped between a car door and the car parked beside him and getting the crap beat out of him by someone trying to jack his car. What kind of gutless, Godless, uncaring person wouldn't help him? Sometimes I'm ashamed of the whole human race.
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I was making a point as to the legality of using a choke hold BOB. I would not use it because it would be excessive and inappropriate given that it takes time and he other people that could step in.
As far as gutless BOB, I'm a corrections officer BOB, I take down criminals when it's potentially 100 or more to one. Have you ever used force, by yourself, completely unarmed while on a prison yard with 600 inmates? I have many times in my 15yrs BOB, and a choke has no place. It's something used on a criminal that has already been mostly subdued. In this situation the criminal needs to be put down fast and hard, and put down decisively enough that you can guard against the other associates. Get him down and get the old dude out. You step in not to issue justice but to extract the old man. And no, I wouldn't say anything that would direct his attention to me, complete surprise. I'd probably arm bar him into the car and toss him to the ground. When he's down grab the old dude and get him out before the criminal can recover.
 
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