Defensive Cane vs. Knife, when you are restricted

Pistoler0 said:
Larry,

<<if you think a knife can't effectively defend you against a larger, stronger opponent, you've never seen someone good with a knife at arm's length. >>

You just made my point:

you sound like you are a trained samurai with a Steven Segal attitude, good for you, I pitty the poor bastard who dares to offend you. But my point is, most people don't have neither the training nor the motivation to get as "good with a knife at arm's length" as you are. At least I don't. I am a civilian, a chair jockey, and between work, family, health problems and hobbies I don't have the time to go train in some exotic martial art technique so that I can repel an attack in case I am caught without my GREAT EQUALIZER: my gun.

And for the situations in which a gun is not available, I think that pepper spray is a very viable option, in fact a better option than blades/batons (the point of the OP) for the untrained. Notice how cops don't carry blades and most often do not carry batons. They do carry mace though. It is not meant to incapacitate, it just gives you a few seconds to engage/disengage/escape etc, by DEFLECTING the threat, not necessarily neutralizing it. You use the OC, then neutralize (if you are LE) or escape the threat.

You say:
<<I've sprayed >100 people with 2M SHU OC. NONE were incapacitated, a few were dissuaded, many were completely undaunted.>>
Then you say:
<<I've survived three knife attacks.>>

Again, you make my point. Because it seems that against a trained warrior like yourself the blades were not effective, but you acknowledge that when you used OC it did work to dissuade some.

For the record, I have been sprayed with OC as part of training. It did incapacitate me. I must be a wuss.

Seriously, please humor me with a thought exercise: you are enjoying your hike in Montana, when all of a sudden a Grizzly bear comes out of the bushes and squares off 12 feet in front of you on his hind paws. You have no gun. Now, which would you prefer to have: your blade, your cane, your club, or a can of bear spray?

But of course, against a human attacker (not the Grizzly he he) 10+ years of martial arts combat and a blade would be a great option too, but #1: blades are illegal most places and #2: It will take me 10 years to get that training.

Do you really think that all of us can/should aspire to your level of martial prowess?
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I'm not sure how to judge the tone in your response.

I'm not a Ninja by any stretch; just got some training along the way.

I'm not addressing the bear defense posit; bears get 45-70 if they get frisky.

My point is that OC is *not* a reliable defense tool. Having been an instructor, I've sprayed many officers; each was required to make a radio call, fight off a pad and fire an aimed (airsoft) round after being sprayed. It's awful-it's not incapacitating.

Knives cause electrical, mechanical and hydraulic damage which can systematically reduce a person's ability to carry on an attack. An untrained person can do it through luck and good judgment, a trained person can do it through skill. The people I faced were (thankfully) less well trained and less lucky than I was.

As far as 'blades' being illegal in most places...what? Knives are legal almost everywhere, unless you're in NYC.

Larry
 
DT Guy said:
I'm not sure how to judge the tone in your response.

I'm not a Ninja by any stretch; just got some training along the way.

I'm not addressing the bear defense posit; bears get 45-70 if they get frisky.

My point is that OC is *not* a reliable defense tool. Having been an instructor, I've sprayed many officers; each was required to make a radio call, fight off a pad and fire an aimed (airsoft) round after being sprayed. It's awful-it's not incapacitating.

Knives cause electrical, mechanical and hydraulic damage which can systematically reduce a person's ability to carry on an attack. An untrained person can do it through luck and good judgment, a trained person can do it through skill. The people I faced were (thankfully) less well trained and less lucky than I was.

As far as 'blades' being illegal in most places...what? Knives are legal almost everywhere, unless you're in NYC.

Larry
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Larry my tone was unnecessarily sarcastic, I apologize. I now realize that you are trying to make a point that you see as valid.

But with all due respect, I just don't think your advice is good, and in my opinion I think that it could be dangerous.

The OP is from a 57 y.o that is pondering whether to bring a cane or a bladed weapon when he can not carry his firearm. I suggested OC instead.

So here, when you say: "bears get 45-70 if they get frisky", it is not helpful. Because my point was: if like in the OP you do not have a firearm, what would you rather have for the bear: a cane, a blade or bear spray? And for a pitbull attack... blade or spray?

My next argument is that many (most?) jurisdictions have blade size restrictions, and here in my state of Colorado I don't think I am going to deter anybody by displaying my legal 3.5" blade in a menacing posture. If my opponent is more powerful than me, he's going to go after me, and after my blade, and is going to carve me a new ______ (use your imagination).

Furthermore even if I succeed, a stab wound from my legal 3.5" blade is rarely incapacitating: read post #79 above in this thread from Brit, who was a bouncer in the UK and was stabbed twice and barely noticed. I know that in the hands of a skilled martial artist it is an extremely incapacitating weapon, but most people do not have those skills!

You are right, OC is not totally incapacitating, but you do not need it to be. When sprayed with mace most people are momentarily disoriented and handicapped. This would give a defender a small window of opportunity to escape (from the human, or from the bear). You say you have experience with its use from LE training, and I have experience from martial arts training. We both agree that it is extremely unpleasant.

In fact what you wrote was:
"I've sprayed many officers; each was required to..... after being sprayed "

Precisely! You were training! The officers you sprayed were part of an exercise in which they had to test how capable they were in completing their tasks after being sprayed, and so they kept persisting. Just because they pushed thru the mace in their training exercise, it does not mean that pepper spray would not handicap/deter an opportunistic attacker!

Lastly you say that OC is not a reliable self-defense tool, and I agree! But neither is the cane, nor the blade! In fact no tool is 100% reliable. I think that firearms are most effective for neutralizing/eliminating the threat, and after that OC is effective in providing opportunity to escape. Blades and blunt tools need to either deter or neutralize, and in my opinion are not very good at either unless the blade is very imposing or the operator is very skilled.

I see OC as the smoke grenade that provides momentary cover to get the heck out. Yeah don't spray someone with mace and stick around to see what happens.

But hey, I think it is silly to argue. If firearms are not allowed and if legal... why not carry BOTH: a legal blade or cane (which btw also have uses beyond self defense) and a can of mace (again, if legal). No? : )

By reading your signature, I see that you and I just have different philosophies.

Your signature says:
"He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast."

I'd counter: "... but try running away BEFORE you have to fight"!

I am not LE and I am not a sheep-dog: I don't want to be a hero, I just want to live one more day. And a successful escape is a better survival outcome than a victorious fight.
 
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If the 57 yr old OP is traveling,lets assume he will go through airport screening.

You cannot bring a knife or OC spray. You an bring a cane. It is a medical device protected by the Americans With Disabilities Act.

The discussions about knives and OC spray ,,,,well,do the best you can.
They may not be options.

The guy isn't going into the coliseum as a gladiator to take on all comers.

A cane won't make him invincible. It will make him less easy. Its a percentage. Some thugs are hard warriors. Some are cowards looking for a vulnerable target.
You have a knife,I have nothing? Odds are I'm badly wounded or dead.
You have a knife,I have a cane? I don't like it. Some of the time I lose,big.
Some of the time I don't. I have a percentage, As I said,I fenced foil,sabre,and eppe a few years. We would see what happens.
With a cane,a little practice and an attitude,he might double his capacity to resist...painfully. Lets assume he can't outrun the thug. A surprising show of violence might convince our thug to find an easier target.

A surprise hard stroke with a hickory cane to the radius bone of the thugs forearm might break it. His damaged arm is ineffective to fight with.
He might lose his knife. His collarbone or his neck might be next.

Retreat might be possible. Or maybe a full fledged berserker beating is the way to go. Depends on the thug,I guess. I'd rather have a cane than nothing.
 
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Pistoler0 said:
Larry my tone was unnecessarily sarcastic, I apologize. I now realize that you are trying to make a point that you see as valid.

But with all due respect, I just don't think your advice is good, and in my opinion I think that it could be dangerous.

The OP is from a 57 y.o that is pondering whether to bring a cane or a bladed weapon when he can not carry his firearm. I suggested OC instead.

So here, when you say: "bears get 45-70 if they get frisky", it is not helpful. Because my point was: if like in the OP you do not have a firearm, what would you rather have for the bear: a cane, a blade or bear spray? And for a pitbull attack... blade or spray?

My next argument is that many (most?) jurisdictions have blade size restrictions, and here in my state of Colorado I don't think I am going to deter anybody by displaying my legal 3.5" blade in a menacing posture. If my opponent is more powerful than me, he's going to go after me, and after my blade, and is going to carve me a new ______ (use your imagination).

Furthermore even if I succeed, a stab wound from my legal 3.5" blade is rarely incapacitating: read post #79 above in this thread from Brit, who was a bouncer in the UK and was stabbed twice and barely noticed. I know that in the hands of a skilled martial artist it is an extremely incapacitating weapon, but most people do not have those skills!

You are right, OC is not totally incapacitating, but you do not need it to be. When sprayed with mace most people are momentarily disoriented and handicapped. This would give a defender a small window of opportunity to escape (from the human, or from the bear). You say you have experience with its use from LE training, and I have experience from martial arts training. We both agree that it is extremely unpleasant.

In fact what you wrote was:
"I've sprayed many officers; each was required to..... after being sprayed "

Precisely! You were training! The officers you sprayed were part of an exercise in which they had to test how capable they were in completing their tasks after being sprayed, and so they kept persisting. Just because they pushed thru the mace in their training exercise, it does not mean that pepper spray would not handicap/deter an opportunistic attacker!

Lastly you say that OC is not a reliable self-defense tool, and I agree! But neither is the cane, nor the blade! In fact no tool is 100% reliable. I think that firearms are most effective for neutralizing/eliminating the threat, and after that OC is effective in providing opportunity to escape. Blades and blunt tools need to either deter or neutralize, and in my opinion are not very good at either unless the blade is very imposing or the operator is very skilled.

I see OC as the smoke grenade that provides momentary cover to get the heck out. Yeah don't spray someone with mace and stick around to see what happens.

But hey, I think it is silly to argue. If firearms are not allowed and if legal... why not carry BOTH: a legal blade or cane (which btw also have uses beyond self defense) and a can of mace (again, if legal). No? : )

By reading your signature, I see that you and I just have different philosophies.

Your signature says:
"He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast."

I'd counter: "... but try running away BEFORE you have to fight"!

I am not LE and I am not a sheep-dog: I don't want to be a hero, I just want to live one more day. And a successful escape is a better survival outcome than a victorious fight.
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I'm just going to save time.

I disagree with nearly everything you've said. Couple of highlights:
1. The idea it takes a large knife to do injury is fallacious.
2. Knife attacks are, statistically, more fatal than firearm wounds.
3. I've sprayed a number of violent people (i.e., NOT trainees) with OC; the majority ignored it.

Seriously, I just disagree with everything you're saying. OC is a good first-step in fighting a violent attack, but by no means a complete plan. Having OC as a defensive weapon without a back-up is, at best, optimistic, and at worst, foolhardy.

Larry
 
I worked in a state prison for 30 years. OC spray works well on some people, not at all on others. It is not uncommon for the defender to be cross contaminated by the spray. If OC is ineffective on your attacker but particularly effective on yourself, cross contamination can make things go from bad to worse.

If someone carries OC, they need to work out a way to carry it so that they can quickly and easily deploy it.

An advantage of a cane is that it is always in hand.
 
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