Could you squeeze the trigger?

There were actually 3 or more armed citizens in the mall when the shooting started. At least one was an off duty cop. They all did the right thing. Got the loved ones and themselves to safety. Not long after, on duty cops with long guns and vests were on the scene.

If you are not being shot at then leave the scene. Engaging a shooter on drugs with an assault rifle and a handgun is suicide. One brave man tried to stop him. He is now in the hospital in critical condition and may never walk again.
 
Amen to Model 25 & John 28226

The shoot don't shoot decision should have been made before ownership of the FIRST firearm. My children knew from their first day at the range and the first time they handled a gun what a gun is capable of. Owning an ax and never contemplating the cutting of a tree makes about as much sense as owning a gun (even a tricked out .22 target rifle) and never contemplating the possibility of using it to kill. If a person will not shoot to kill they should not carry. All the rest about "cover and concealment-body armour-backstops-I'm outgunned-what about SWAT" is tactical BS. I will shoot. I will NOT let some sick SOB randomly take target practice on a group of sheeple if I have any chance of stopping it. Will I charge accross 200 ft of open space against a BG armed with a rifle? Maybe, if it were my kids that were in the immediate line of fire. That might serve no purpose except to provide one more target but if I did not and I survive I would have to live with myself. That A.M. mirror can be the ugliest picture on the planet. Conditions dictate tactics NOT mindset. I always remember "...it is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst,nor the smoke we make...it is the hits that count." NUFF SAID. Semper Fi & Molon Labe. I'll say it all again,it's what is right for me.
 
John,

I see that you are older than I, by 11 years to be exact, and so I cannot say that I've gotten to the wisdom or the action that you have, hopefully in time.

I think what must are saying is that it all depends. Running in like Steven (can't spell his last name) or Arnold (ditto) is all good and fun in the movies but that is a script, while this is real life.

To go off haphazardly shooting at the BG while your backstop consist of other human beings is not a good thing to do. To endanger your life for nothing may get you an attaboy but in reality people will wonder why you did what you did when it wasn't in your favor and death was assured, etc..

We all have the "hero complex" where we dream/think that we would be the one that would run up and stop the threat with one (or more) shots and than feel good about it, do the interviews, etc.. But in reality, when faced with a problem, even one as bad as this, you have to stop and think about what you are doing and then how you are going to do it.

I'm not a bad shot, not a great one either, but have you ever taken "stress training"? This is where you get your body going to the point of the flight or fight response, heart rate is up, you get the shakes, your face because flushed and feels as if it's heated up to 1000 degress, and then you draw and fire..... you'd be surprised at what you will hit, and generally it's not the BG :(.

I know that I'm going to get flamed for this, is okay. But, the ones that are wounded or killed, I will feel great emotion for, but my first priority would be my family, then me, then others. Once my family is safe, and I am behind protection or in an area that is covered, and I have a safe shot, then yes, I would engage the gunman and direct his fire to me instead of others.

Call me a coward, call me a non-man, call me whatever.

Yes, I would love to be like Steven or Arnold or whomever, but I know that I am not, and so, I have to live with that knowledge that I'm only a regular man, not some superhero in a movie or on tv. Sorry.

Wayne
 
USP45, that's exactly what you should do. Get yourself and loved ones to safety. Hate to say it, but it's a cruel world and everyone's on their own.
 
To me it isn't being a hero, it is doing your duty for your fellow man. I couldn't stand by and watch someone kill your kids nor your wife or anyone. I am not brave and everytime I have been shot at or mortared or even come close to an accident I have been afraid, but fear doesn't stop me from doing the right thing.

God help the man I see hurting a child because I will persue him to my dieing breath.

No flame here from me here, you will all probably do what is right when you get tested and if you don't it is you that will make your life miserable.:)

25
 
M25, I gathered that you've served, my hats off to you. When I was in, your loyality was to your fellow troops also, and you would do anything that you deemed right to ensure of their protection. I very well understand that.

But during that same time period, I looked, I saw, and I came to grips that I couldn't protect them all. It's a horrid thing to see, to witness, but then I came to grips that I was nothing more than a mere man. I couldn't save them and I can't save the world.

All I have is my family (non-married and no kids so it should make it easier right?) but I have my aging Mom and my Grandmother. Even though I can't save the world or those in it, there is a better chance that I may be able to save them. And that is what I would do.

You see, when I was in the military there was a tune of 200,000 that I could give, also my benefits, and my pay. Since I've gotten out, there is no longer these things so any money that I make is what I can use to help them out and ensure that they live in what comfort they can until that sad day comes. I would feel the same with any wife or family that I've made.

I realize right now that I am limited in what I have and what I can do. Sure, I would love to step up and say that I would jump in front of a bullet to save another, that is a great thing to do. I will never talk bad or second guess one that does so, I just hope that they thought things out and their family is okay afterward.

In no way did I make that post to offend you, wasn't my intention. The reason that I made that post was to show that people have priorities on what they are willing to do. If we had better services and less gun control, more and more would be willing to make a stand, but that is not the case so the only thing that one can do is become selfish for what they will do or are willing to do.

Even if you survived, you have the cost of courts, the taking away of your firearms, the writeups on the anti's pages pointing at reasons why no one should own guns.

All in all, this is a losing thread. No matter the ideas of what one may, or may not, do, it will be wrong by one person or the other. The anti's may point at the thread to show that many are "gung ho" to kill someone, others may point at it and say that some are "cowards" and some may point at it to say that there is no realistic answer that can honestly be given.

My point being that we all know what we would like to think that we would do, but until it happens, none of us really know what we would do.

Wayne

*and Jarhed: no, no smart, just speak from what I think and from what I know.
 
No Fear=No Brain

Someone smarter than me said "Without fear there is no courage." Anyone who is in a life threatening situation and isn't scared is an idiot. "Feelings" don't count,actions DO. Semper Fi & Molon Labe.
 
Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone here, but I saw some wishy washy answers.
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Let me correct your misconception sir. I know without a doubt that I have the will to take a life. I know because I have done it.
Nobody knows how they will react in a situation, but if you stumble into a situation doubting yourself that may be the last doubt you have.
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Only a fool would make his mind up how he will act before he ever enters a conflict. There are some who place a lot of faith in their ability to hit what they must with a handgun, under extreme stress and against a rifleman.

Mark Wilson is a man some folks should perhaps consider. Mark was no slouch. He trained well with his firearm. He had good equipment, and he could shoot accurately under stress. In Tyler Texas, Mark scored two COM hits on a killer. Unfortunately the killer had body armor and a Kalashnikov rifle. Mark Wilson was shot several times and then executed in the streets of Tyler like a dog.

Mark Wilson is a hero to any civilian who carries a gun. When he was needed, he responded promptly and with skill. He is also dead. If Mark had engaged his killer with a deer rifle from a window instead of a 1911 from behind a car, he would be alive today.

I love my children. I, myself, grew up without a father. My father died when I was two years old. I know the hole that leaves in a kid. I swore my children would never feel that loss if I could help it. If that means somebody else dies instead of me, so be it. It's a cold world out there, and I'm no Mark Wilson. God bless the people who are.
 
USP45 make no mistake here, I was not in the military but went to Iraq to help them. I drove fuel truck and convoyed the military materials that they used in the fights. I had God riding with me and needed him often as I carried no gun.

I saw alot of sh!t that I never want to see here and people murdering innocents is one of them. I am late in life and my family is raised, I love them all but will do my best to keep the murderers from amoung us. I am joe average American just like the rest of you and this is all I have to offer for what God has given me.

nuff said

25
 
OK. The rumour around is that a CCW armed citizen was in the Tacoma, WA mall. The armed citizen had a weapon, a good sight picture but, an uncertain backstop and too many IBs in the area. No free fire exchange. I applaud the decision NOT to fire. The question is, IF there were a good backstop, no IBs and you have a sight picture, could you squeeze the trigger? Introspection time.
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What if you had lunch at the mall and a couple of beers along with it....
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Xavier, well said.
It all comes down to self preservation. We cannot depend on others to take care of us. Not even the police. We must do so ourselves. As a husband and/or father it is our duty and obligation to protect our family. And it is our duty to make sure we go home to them also. If I can help someone, I will. But I will not foolishly put myself in harms way. Too many people are not prepared and rely on others to watch out for them. I will not die for them. But for the weak, old and frail, I will do what I can.

Sorry, but those pacifists, gun haters, and the like are on their own too. These are the same people who will scream for our help when they can't protect themselves.
 
Anti-gun/anti-freedom bigotry causes needless loss of life

Every mall I have been into has a "no firearms allowed" posted on the micro-font regulations just inside each entrance. You are required to read that edition of "War and Peace" prior to entering and if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute.
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Obviously, these antigun prohibitions need to be dropped. A competent, armed ''civilian'' as we non-badge wearers are called these days (as a military veteran, I despise the bastardization of that term) can save multiple lives in a shooting spree situation.

Anyone who is carrying with a CCW should be viewed in the same light as a police officer carrying a weapon - in other words, they should be allowed to carry and they should be viewed as a good thing to have around, not as they are viewed now (a menace to society).

Today, the sheeple consider cowering, screaming unarmed (other) sheeple being executed at the whim of a madman as being preferable to having an armed, non-police citizen taking out said madman with a headshot.

This irrational, pathological thinking needs to be irradicated. In every way, saving lives takes precedence over worshipping at the altar of anti-gun/anti-freedom bigotry.

In a rational society, it does.
 
Anyone who is carrying with a CCW should be viewed in the same light as a police officer carrying a weapon - in other words, they should be allowed to carry and they should be viewed as a good thing to have around, not as they are viewed now (a menace to society).
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I personally agree.

The big difference I see between a LEO and me is that they are empowered to enforce misdemeanor infractions on top of protection and response to felony crimes.

If I am DIRECTLY involved in a felony crime (victim or witness) and carry a weapon, my first duty is to my family's safety and my safety. The weapon is used first and foremost to enforce my RIGHT to self defense and self preservation. If prudence dictates, I may choose to employ it to protect others, but they have made the choice to not protect themselves and need to live (or not) with that fact, too.

If I hear gunshots 500 yards down the mall corridor, I am not going to run down and attempt to restore order as a CCW holder, member of the militia, volunteer with the local PD, or whatever.

That's why SWAT has vests, M4's and .45's.

It is the independence of the individual that converted me from a kooky liberal household, into a gun-toting conservative that believes in law and consequences. After seeing too many people get off "free" when the legal system botches investigations, and potential victims still encouraged to not defend themselves, I made my decision and it shifted the entire way I viewed the world.

"Obligation" and "should" are extremely dangerous words, on both the left and the right. Each person makes decisions they must live with every day, and choosing to defend yourself is one of them.
 
You guys watch too many movies. Again my take was the guy has an assault rifle, unless your close, it is stupid to take the shot or somehow sneak up on him. This is what I'm seeing....I hear the rata ta ta of automatic fire I'm telling the wife and kid, GO OUT THE EMERGENCY EXIT, I'LL TAKE CARE OF THIS!!! (again wife and kid could get shot or trampled, but they can take care of themselves). Let's say the shooter is 100 yard down from your position, you bravely try to get a better position and A) get blasted at 50 yard because you left your Ninja outfit at home and your the only schmuck moving toward the shooter and not running away or ducking for cover, but hey you died bravely, and so did the little kids who were hiding near your position, actually they died because you wanted to play cop. B) You get close enough to shoot and man what a cool gunfight it is, so cool that the police don't know who to shoot first, so they shoot you both.

Again I have no problem with taking the shot if the guy is near me (10 yards or less with a clear shot) or threatening my family. Leave the responding to a shooting on the other end of the mall to the professionals. My first priority is to my family.
 
Quote:
Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone here, but I saw some wishy washy answers.

Let me correct your misconception sir. I know without a doubt that I have the will to take a life. I know because I have done it.

Quote:
Nobody knows how they will react in a situation, but if you stumble into a situation doubting yourself that may be the last doubt you have.

Only a fool would make his mind up how he will act before he ever enters a conflict. There are some who place a lot of faith in their ability to hit what they must with a handgun, under extreme stress and against a rifleman.


Xavier,
I think you misunderstood what I wrote/meant. Confidence does not equal machismo, confidence equals training and practice and knowing you have maintained your skills to deal with stressful situations. The meaning of the above statement was that if don't have confidence in your ability to react to a sitiation you should evaluate carrying a weapon. By react I don't mean every situation is a shoot situation. If a person is going to arm themselves they need to be able to react and decide if the situation is a reason to pull or not pull their weapon, shoot or no shoot situation, is it more prudent to take concealment and wait for a shot, is it more prudent to evacuate the area if possible. The only way to do this is with training and practice. You're correct in that only a fool would make up his mind that ,I will do this each time and this will be the bad guys reaction, it don't work like that. The fool is the guy who doesn't evaluate his surroundings and have situational awareness of concealment, cover, exits and possible crazies. I spend a fair amount of time in places that Americans aren't liked (some of the time without a firearm) evaluating my surroundings and keeping good SA has become habit.
 
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