Could you squeeze the trigger?

machisma?!?!?!:eek:

Boy, doesn't that just destroy sex appeal for all women across the world...:D Women dripping hairy machisma all over as they saunter about, flinging invectives to one another and pounding their chests...

Then again, a woman that can shoot is by default a 7 out of 10 before you even get to looks or brains...:)
 
I do know that I have defended my family before, putting my own safety in jeopardy for my brother. I know it's not something I'll ever do lightly again, and only for people that really and truly mean something to me, that if I die, at least I counted for something.


I recognize that kind of thinking as the "heart" of the warrior. That feeling for your family used to be common for our country. Sadly that is no longer true, thousands of our neighbors are murdered and when we go to war half the country wants to cut and run before the job is done.

I just live in the old days and think in the old ways but I hope everyone realizes in no way am I doing anything but expressing my opinion of how I think men should be. Those days are long gone though.

25
 
I've been putting a little thought into this the last couple of days. I feel no responsibility to play hero. I will protect myself and my family, but I will leave the hero stuff to the proper authorities. Part of being a responsible person is knowing when to stay out of the way. My sw40ve and I are no match for a lunitic with an Ak47. To draw and fire at this person would be suicide. This does not mean I am a coward, It means that attempting to make long range shots with a pistol will not likely help, and will most likely make the situation worse. Its been said here before that the best weapon we have is between our ears, and this is the time to apply it. I'm a pretty good shot out to around 25 yards. An AK or AR is accurate to 800 meters. You manage to take him out with a concealable handgun, and all I can say is you're a better shot than I can even imagine being possible.
 
Actually, it will be interesting to see if the CCW holder will be prosecuted for carrying a firearm in the mall.

Every mall I have been into has a "no firearms allowed" posted on the micro-font regulations just inside each entrance. You are required to read that edition of "War and Peace" prior to entering and if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute.

Obviously it's a silly rule in our opinions here, but it's a silly world we live in.
 
...and while it's easy to have lots of machismo (or in my case, machisma) sitting in my living room with my laptop on my lap, I would HOPE that caution would kick in if such a situation developed. I would, if possible, concentrate on getting people OUT rather than trying to get into a gun battle with the BG. That, too, is saving lives, and is far more in line with what might be possible than thinking I could take on the shooter.

Anyone who goes into a mall and starts butchering unarmed people is a coward, it's that simple. The 20 year old man that did this in Tacoma was afraid to die so if he would have met resistance he showed us he would hide and beg for his life. Sheild himself by hostages and surrender when a threat comes his way. Not much of a man thank God.

He tested his courage against a bunch of unarmed people but have you noticed that all these macho killers never attack the police. They always attack those unarmed. Society should shun any news media on these guys then lock them away for ever.

25
 
If the question is, "Could you easily drop the hammer on a murderer who is in the process of conducting a killing spree?" my answer is an unmitigated YES. If I see the guy, and see that he is armed, and have witnessed the havoc he's creating, then yes, I believe I would not have second thoughts about killing him. I believe that witnessing someone shooting innocents would remove all doubt from my mind.


Whether I would do so in an actual real life situation would depend on whether I thought I would be able to survive specifically because of my shooting him. Also under consideration would be whether I thought I was really going to save lives.

Part of the utility of having a CCW is that if you are cornered in the back of a store with no way out, even if you cannot rescue others from certain murder without undue risk to them or you, you can at least hang back and IF the killer comes to where you are, you can hopefully surprise him with fire of your own and prevent him from ending your life. It's an unlucky circumstance, but it's definitely possible for it to be tactically impossible to head on out to meet him and confront him (especially not necessarily knowing if he's alone, or what he's armed with). If I could see it was some untrained-looking teen blasting away randomly in the front of a store, I might decide to take the shot on him, yes. If he's got a 30 round mag in a Mini-14, probably not. Whether I would hunt him out to stop the carnage or hang back and wait to see if he comes my way so I can stop him would depend on various factors.

But if we're talking about having COMPUNCTIONS about killing him, HELL no.


-blackmind
 
Actually, it will be interesting to see if the CCW holder will be prosecuted for carrying a firearm in the mall.

Every mall I have been into has a "no firearms allowed" posted on the micro-font regulations just inside each entrance. You are required to read that edition of "War and Peace" prior to entering and if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute.

Obviously it's a silly rule in our opinions here, but it's a silly world we live in.
Click to expand...


No, it is an OBJECTIVELY silly rule.

There is no need to stipulate, in some kind of leftist feelgood fashion, that, "It may be a sensible rule to some people; that's their opinion..."

Either it is a rule that DOES SOMETHING in a real-world sense, or it DOES NOTHING in a real-world sense. This kind of rule is the latter kind.

And I have never seen such a sign at the entrance of a mall, as far as I can remember.

And I don't see how someone could be prosecuted for carrying there anyway, because a store policy is not law.

On what basis do you assert that "if you bring in contraband such as firearms or drugs, they can prosecute"?


-blackmind
 
Trespass, concealing a dangerous weapon, possibly even assault. It's not a store policy, it is a statement on private property.

it is private property you are on. Imagine if you told me I wasn't allowed to carry a gun in your home, but I did so anyways. it would steam you quite a bit, wouldn't it?

I agree that objective law is the only type of law that is valid, but property rights are also a function of objective, valid law.

Of course, my carrying of a weapon protects MY property and safety, so now we're getting very grey and muddy waters here.:D

Look at the sign right next to the breezeway doors. The anchor stores typically don't post this stuff, only the main mall entrances.
 
Not trying to start an argument or flame anyone here, but I saw some wishy washy answers. IMHO if you are carrying CCW and have not made up your mind to get training, regular practice and have doubts about your capability or ability to take a human life; you should probably re-evaluate carrying a weapon until there is no doubt in your mind. Nobody knows how they will react in a situation, but if you stumble into a situation doubting yourself that may be the last doubt you have.
 
azredhawk said:
Trespass, concealing a dangerous weapon, possibly even assault. It's not a store policy, it is a statement on private property.

it is private property you are on. Imagine if you told me I wasn't allowed to carry a gun in your home, but I did so anyways. it would steam you quite a bit, wouldn't it?

I agree that objective law is the only type of law that is valid, but property rights are also a function of objective, valid law.

Of course, my carrying of a weapon protects MY property and safety, so now we're getting very grey and muddy waters here.

Look at the sign right next to the breezeway doors. The anchor stores typically don't post this stuff, only the main mall entrances.
Click to expand...


I think you need to study up on this one. You couldn't/wouldn't be prosecuted for trespassing unless you were found to be carrying concealed, were asked to leave, and refused. ONCE AN OFFICER SHOWS UP, if you are still standing fast and refusing to leave, you're screwed.

Breaking a store policy IS NOT breaking the LAW.

How did you make the leap to "concealing a dangerous weapon"? If we're talking about legal CCW with a license, where's the crime? Such a license specifically entitles you to conceal a dangerous weapon! Please tell us where the crime is.

And the other leap you made was "possibly assault." Assault?! Without having assaulted anyone? Could you explain where carrying a legal CCW into a store that has a sign forbidding it constitutes assault, given a situation in which no one sees or detects the weapon, and it is discovered to be on you only after a shooting incident that did not involve you? (Or even more in your favor, a situation in which you successfully use your gun to stop a rampage?)



-blackmind
 
not to be argumentative but in the Tacoma Mall there is actually quite a bit of cover even from AK rounds. there are concrete support pillars that are about 4 feet wide and foot thick here and there as well as a few stone (granite maybe?) benches along the walkway and some 3 foot high, 3 foot diameter concrete planter pots near the benches. not that i pay attention to such things as where i might find cover in case the SHTF. ;)

Bobby
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azredhawk
Trespass, concealing a dangerous weapon, possibly even assault. It's not a store policy, it is a statement on private property.

it is private property you are on. Imagine if you told me I wasn't allowed to carry a gun in your home, but I did so anyways. it would steam you quite a bit, wouldn't it?

I agree that objective law is the only type of law that is valid, but property rights are also a function of objective, valid law.

Of course, my carrying of a weapon protects MY property and safety, so now we're getting very grey and muddy waters here.

Look at the sign right next to the breezeway doors. The anchor stores typically don't post this stuff, only the main mall entrances.


I think you need to study up on this one. You couldn't/wouldn't be prosecuted for trespassing unless you were found to be carrying concealed, were asked to leave, and refused. ONCE AN OFFICER SHOWS UP, if you are still standing fast and refusing to leave, you're screwed.

Breaking a store policy IS NOT breaking the LAW.

How did you make the leap to "concealing a dangerous weapon"? If we're talking about legal CCW with a license, where's the crime? Such a license specifically entitles you to conceal a dangerous weapon! Please tell us where the crime is.

And the other leap you made was "possibly assault." Assault?! Without having assaulted anyone? Could you explain where carrying a legal CCW into a store that has a sign forbidding it constitutes assault, given a situation in which no one sees or detects the weapon, and it is discovered to be on you only after a shooting incident that did not involve you? (Or even more in your favor, a situation in which you successfully use your gun to stop a rampage?)



-blackmind

+1 Black
It also depends on the state as far as the signs go. In FL there are no provisions in the state law for posting signs so if it's discovered you're carrying CCW all they can do is ask you to leave and then you leave. If you don't leave you can be charged with trespassing. But it's still only tresspassing and not a weapons violation unless you pull your weapon or try to intimidate the person by exposing your weapon. Unless the laws in Washington have changed since I lived there from 87-91 the same was true. In other states like NC, and Ohio the law provides for signs and it's illegal to carry into a place that has signs posted. In states where the law doesn't specifically state that it's illegal to carry into a business that posts a sign, the signs aren't worth what they are printed on.
 
model25

My point is that your rationale of who is fit to carry, unfit to carry, and “neutered”, make no sense to me.

If a CCW holder - even with the infamous 1911 .45acp Super-Blaster 2000 - chooses not to intervene when an assailant armed with an AK is spraying 30rnd magazines through out the mall - this does not make he/she fit or unfit to carry.

This makes that person a lot more realistic than some of the posters in this thread, especially if the CCW holder feels their skill set is not necessarily in line with taking 40yd shots at a man with a rifle. Not necessarily a popular thing to say on TFL, because everyone on TFL gets 3 inch groups at 50yds even when rifle rounds are whizzing past their head. But maybe some of us aren't capable of that.

I don't mind risking my life for someone else, but when it's futile to do so – due to certain circumstances – I will live to fight another day, God willing.

If you’re about to make a decision to risk your own life, and you do not stop to consider your aptitude and probability of success… then you’re not using your most deadly weapon – your brain.

Could I “pull the trigger” on a cowardice low-life killing innocent people? As in do I have what it takes to pull the trigger and take a life? Hell yes. But there are certain circumstances that would have to be in place prior to me committing to such a decision. Doing it just because it’s the valiant thing to do… is not one of those circumstances. Of course there are situations where I could throw my own life aside to save someone else, regardless of the probability of success, but they are saved for the people I truly love and care for. Not perfect strangers.

If in your eyes I have a testicular deficit because of this – so be it. No hard feelings here.
 
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+1 Trip 20

Gotta make good decisions, . . . make a bad one, . . . you are dead and in a worst case scenario, . . . he has your gun and ammo as well as what he brought:barf:

May God bless,
Dwight
 
No hard feelings here.

I hope people here can just read a mans opinion without any feelings at all other than seeing how others think. I mean no offense and I never take any offense. You are civil in your discussion and I enjoy it.

This makes that person a lot more realistic than some of the posters in this thread, especially if the CCW holder feels their skill set is not necessarily in line with taking 40yd shots at a man with a rifle. Not necessarily a popular thing to say on TFL, because everyone on TFL gets 3 inch groups at 50yds even when rifle rounds are whizzing past their head. But maybe some of us aren't capable of that.

Skill level, I hate to use movie cliches but "A man has to know his limitations". That is what the thread is about but it isn't the skill level it is the mental ability to do what needs to be done.

When wars happen people have to be taught to kill. The process of dehumanizing the enemy and training the combatant is mixed both physical and mental training. It takes that as about 99.9 percent of people are good and don't want to kill.

Heck I don't want to kill either but will do so to save innocent people but then I grew up in a different America in which sacrifice was deemed noble. Today most have been trained to be self centered and sacrifice is for old fools.

Is my way better? Only for me and I hold none up to my standards nor do I look down on anyone but criminal cowards.

Keep training and you will find a whole new you latter in life:D

Thanks
25
 
+1 Trip 20

Gotta make good decisions, . . . make a bad one, . . . you are dead and in a worst case scenario, . . . he has your gun and ammo as well as what he brought

If you want to leave the BG a gun then it is better that it is shot empty at him. To choose not to shoot it would be better to leave the gun at home so the bad guy doesn't have your gun when he murders you.:eek:

25
 
I'm with you Model 25

I knew there was something I liked about you, Model 25, other than you screen name. In the short time I have been visiting this forum, the thread of "who do you defend" has come up several times. Many of the regulars take the position that they have a gun to protect only them and their families; some even cast stones at those who think otherwise.

I am always saddened to read about "I am not a police officer so let them fend for themselves until the police get there" and other sentiments of that nature. I have no desire to change anyone's mind; you do that with which you can live with yourself. But I can't help but wonder what they think if they are not with their family? Would they want someone to step forward and attempt to save them? Isn't everyone being shot someone's family?

To come back to the original question, perhaps we should do that every once in a while, I understood the question was "could you pull the trigger?" Maybe William meant "would" instead?

Given the circumstances described, I feel much like Model 25. I feel no need to comment on what other people would or would not do. That is for them to decide but I made my decision long ago and it has not changed in 48 years. It was the same when I was a police officer and has not changed now that I am a civilian.

I would be thankful if those who agree were nearby if my wife or children or grandchildren needed help.

Don't see many movies anymore (can't stand the politics of most of the players) but as a kid I saw a lot of westerns and I believe the phrase that would apply is that those who would do something to stop carnage "will do to walk the river with". Bad grammar but commendable ideals.
John
Charlotte, NC
Where we have the best government money can buy!
 
Amen to Model 25 & John 28226

The shoot don't shoot decision should have been made before ownership of the FIRST firearm. My children knew from their first day at the range and the first time they handled a gun what a gun is capable of. Owning an ax and never contemplating the cutting of a tree makes about as much sense as owning a gun (even a tricked out .22 target rifle) and never contemplating the possibility of using it to kill. If a person will not shoot to kill they should not carry. All the rest about "cover and concealment-body armour-backstops-I'm outgunned-what about SWAT" is tactical BS. I will shoot. I will NOT let some sick SOB randomly take target practice on a group of sheeple if I have any chance of stopping it. Will I charge accross 200 ft of open space against a BG armed with a rifle? Maybe, if it were my kids that were in the immediate line of fire. That might serve no purpose except to provide one more target but did not and survive I would have to live with myself. That A.M. mirror can be the ugliest picture on the planet. Conditions dictate tactics NOT mindset. I always remember "...it is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst,nor the smoke we make...it is the hits that count." NUFF SAID. Semper Fi & Molon Labe
 
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