Could you squeeze the trigger?

Actually, I would just fire up my wireless-enabled PDA and browse to the FiringLine boards and put out an all call to SpaceManSpiff and his tactical ninja crew.
extremespiff.jpg

He and WildAlaska will no doubt get the message in less than 30 seconds, fire up the chopper they use for grizzly hunting with their .25acp's, be down to Tacoma in about 3 minutes and spiff can rapel into the mall via the Orange Julius / Dairy Queen exhaust vent in the food court.:D
 
azredhawk44 said:
Can you make a headshot with a tiny snubbie wheel gun or your CCW pocket gun? Even if you carry a glock26 or 19, can you reliably make a headshot at 50 feet, with that pressure, on a moving target?

Are you willing to sneak up closer to this guy as he is scanning for targets? He is probably moving, himself, and you want to stealthily get within 25 feet for a headshot?

He outguns you, has more ammo, may be wearing light armor, and is okay with dying today.
Click to expand...

Its funny you mentioned the Glock 26 since it is what I happen to carry. It is more than capable to shooting 5 inch groups at 15 yards. If I had decent cover (such as a corner to duck around or a larger planter) I would engage him. (This is also assuming there are not a ton of people behind the shooter. Logic dictates that people would be running the other way.) I know a head shot is difficult, but I would consider going for a leg shot. At least that would anchor the BG and keep him from finding new victims. Once he is on the ground, I would go for head shots. At least you would be dealing with ricochets rather than direct hits if you happened to miss your target.
 
LMAO the exhaust vent thing floored me. :D

Picturing Spiff, stuck in a vent, feet dangling through the ceiling... almost made me soil myself. :D :p
 
What's creepy is I know this mall. I went to college in Tacoma and I have been to this mall a lot.

I remember thinking that the mall was a great big bullet corridor.:(

And it always had creeped me out.

A friend of mine killed someone in that mall out of self defense about 6-7 years ago. No guns involved, BG had a knife and my buddy broke his neck by throwing him into a wall.

I guess I probably won't visit it out of any misplaced sense of nostalgia anytime soon.:(
 
Azredhawk hit it on the head. And here is more that you may not have been thinking of; you guys talking about moving on the guy to get a better shot...what if SWAT shows up and sees you with your CW out, you don't think they will take you out??? Or even worse you confuse the situation and you get a cop killed while they are trying to figure out who is the bad guy. Can you be certain this guy wasn't there to kill someone, and was about to leave , and you get in a gun battle with him and other men, women, and children die because you want to be a hero. If your alone (don't be hiding near a group of strangers), and your real close and he does not see you, and he is still randomly killing , you take the shot. If he is shooting at you or your family you take the shot. Everything else you leave to the police and SWAT.

P.S. Or leave it to Ninja Spacemanspiff.
 
+1 Mikeyboy.

In my home I pack the big heat and lots of it, and woe be to him (or her) that enters with evil intent. The .30 caliber rifle gods and .45 caliber pistol gods shall invite righteous thunder upon them.

But I'm not equipped to win when shopping at the mall over christmas. I'm only equipped to save my own bacon.
 
I think we need to break this apart a little more...

Nobody here seems to be advocating searching through the mall in an attempt to find the shooter. Even those who would engage said shooter seem to be of the opinion that they would do so only if their family was already going the other way to safety. I also do not see anyone saying they would choose to engage at long ranges or go toe to toe in the mall causeway.

I also do not think anyone here is advocating just going after some guy standing there with a gun. Perhaps he picked it up from the real criminal... I do think though that if we see someone with a rifle firing into a crowd of people it is fairly safe to assume he is not mall security.

Of course we all need to tak into account what we are carrying. I often am carrying a 5" 1911 in 10mm and a spare magazine. Some other times I am carrying a 2" 38 in a SmartCarry with two speed strips. If I had the 5" 1911 my options for engaging at any range beyond 10 feet are greatly improved.

There is one advantage we have as a CCW holder in such a situation, we are unexpected. Mall cops are unarmed and while the SWAT team showing up is a concern for a CCW holder with a gun out I think the chances of them being there in the first 5 - 10 minutes of the event are miniscule... (in 5-10 minutes this thing will either be over or I will be out of there) As an unexpected opponent we have a real advantage here. People are going to be running pell mell in every direction. The BG will be keeping an eye open for cops but as we can see from the one person who actually made physical contact with this guy it is often possible to even get within range for physical contact. I wouldn't do that but who knows where this guy was when it started...

BGs with a vest are certainly a concern. If your shots on the torso have no effet you have two choices, head or pelvis down. In a close range, encounter I drill for two to the torso and one to the head. In this case though I think at anything other than really close range I will shoot for the pelvis/upper legs. If he is at least crippled I figure I have done more than my part and will now attempt to exit stage right! Get out and let the cops know that he has on armor and is wounded, as well as give them an accurate description of who and what they are dealing with.

Facing a rifle with a handgun is certainly not good. Still, I would rather face a BG who has a rifle with my 1911 if I have the advantage of surprise and positionthan the other way around! If I cannot have surprise and position I am not engaging and that is that. This is no movie and I have absolutely no intention of fighting "fair." If I can put a couple rounds into his back too bad for him.

There was also a hostage situation here. Several people were stuck in a Sam Goody's with this nut job. I would ask this: If you were a hostage, saw the opportuinty and thought you could get away with it would you try to take him out or would you sit around and hope that negotiations worked?

Personally, as the man on the ground, if I saw some nut who had already shot multiple people I am going to assume his end goal is to ride the magic carpet to allah or the diety of his choice and take as many with him. If I see the opportunity I am going to shoot the guy, several times and until I am certain he is not going to stand up and re-engage anyone.
 
As a hostage I am killing him, first opening I get. .380 to the base of the neck within 5 feet when the opening comes.

But even with a full size handgun, Glock 21 or .44 revolver or whatever mammoth piece that some people find they can conceal somehow, I don't think anyone is going to give a good fight to this guy with anything short of an assault rifle.

We're talking mini-14, PLR-16, AR-15, M1a, AK, SKS... but your typical concealment piece (or any handgun) is not likely to be reliable in this regard.

There is NO COVER from an AK in a mall. It will go thru 6 walls before stopping. The plants in the corridors will not stop the bullets. Some of the support pillars in the Tacoma mall are very thick concrete, but they are very few and far between.

Nobody's "trusty 1911" is going to save the day in this mall. The BG has too much visibility and a huge range advantage on you. The main corridor is several hundred yards long and mostly unobstructed, IIRC. You WILL NOT get within handgun distance of a BG in this mall. You would be lucky to get a shot closer than 50 YARDS. And only one or two of those before he turns and gives you a couple of lead pills in return.
 
I've grown up in the past year (well, 6 months or so) so my answers have changed.

Right now my answer is:

I don't know. I would hope that I would do what was needed if the time came and it was a clean shot but until that time, I don't know.

But, I agree that family getting out is priority #1.

Wayne

PS, I'm like Trip, I don't do malls and I hate the traffic. Internet shopping is the way to go :).
 
I am no hero but I live by the old values Americans used to have. I will risk my neck for other people and if I get killed then it was for something good. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror and know that women and kids were being shot at or killed and me armed and doing nothing about it.

In my town of 50,000 there are no more than 7 cops on duty at any time. By the time they put together a Swat force anyone could kill dozens in a mall. To stand by and let that happen IMHO is a man not fit to carry a weapon.

If you want to depend on the police for your protection then don't carry a gun. If you only carry a mouse gun that isn't serious for defense then why carry a gun? Just my 2 cents worth.

25
 
That is what I'm thinking, if I'm taken hostage, play scared and defenseless, and when he is not looking he gets a point blank shot to the head. Anything else will probably get you and others killed. With all due respect,there were two post here saying basically...My wife knows the drill, she is running out thru the back of the store and out the emergency exit, while I try to help. What if your wife falls and gets trampled??? What if it is a terrorist attack and another gunman is waiting at the exit for maximum cranage??? Your better off making sure your loved ones are safe.
 
My wife knows the drill, she is running out thru the back of the store and out the emergency exit, while I try to help. What if your wife falls and gets trampled??? What if it is a terrorist attack and another gunman is waiting at the exit for maximum cranage??? Your better off making sure your loved ones are safe.


The difference in my view of family is that you make sure your family can use a gun too. My wife has had a CCW for over 20 years, went to a shooting school and is the perfect backup for me as she is unafraid to shoot anyone who would hurt her family.

My wife will not be trampled or killed by another gunman who is counting on a bunch of sheep running through the mall. She will either cover me or if my kid is there then they will seek a barricade cover and assume a firing position.

Self defense if you only think it's about you then you have failed your family because you can't be there to protect your loved ones 24 hours a day. Train your family, who better to watch your back?

25
 
Musketeer, the CCW holder killed in Tyler, TX was Mark Wilson.

http://www.defenseofothers.com/

I usually don't go to the mall unless I have to with the kids for school clothes shopping, etc. So I probably would heard the guys away from danger. If the perp was shooting at us though, get the kids and myself behind cover and engage the bad guy. I suppose if I saw the perp targeting kids or elderly people I would go after him, but who knows what any of us would really do. Hopefully though, none of us will ever see that day.......
 
Trip20

How many times are the police there before someone gets killed? Like big government says you are on your own for the first 72 hours. Little government will be there to clean up after the shooting has stopped and the blame needs to be place.

A study of New Orleans showed the cops ran out of ammo during the fire fights. (page 24 American handgunner).

25
 
model_25 said:
Trip20

How many times are the police there before someone gets killed? Like big government says you are on your own for the first 72 hours. Little government will be there to clean up after the shooting has stopped and the blame needs to be place.

A study of New Orleans showed the cops ran out of ammo during the fire fights. (page 24 American handgunner).
Click to expand...

Oh, I completely agree with you here.

What I don't agree with is asserting that someone is a "neutered man", or that they're not fit to carry a weapon if they're not willing to blindly submit to making headshots on an internet thread about taking down a guy with an AK-47.

When your talking about helping your fellow man and all that crap - I'm with you. But you lose me with the bs bravado about neutered men unfit to carry, leave the gun at home....blah blah blah. Makes no sense. Primary reason to carry is to protect yourself and loved ones. It does not automatically make you responsible for everyone in the mall.

Your probably a better shot than me. You've probably forgotten more about pistol shooting than I'll ever know. But don't be insulting and tell people to leave their piece at home if they're not comfortable playing Chuck Norris in Walker Texas Ranger.
 
But don't be insulting and tell people to leave their piece at home if they're not comfortable playing Chuck Norris in Walker Texas Ranger.

If you are insulted by what you read on the internet then I mean no offense but your skin is very thin. In no place in any of my post did I mention a head shot, All I said is I would do "something"

It is not "bravado" to be willing to die for your fellow man and I see no need to explain what it is because if you don't have that much love and respect for the people you live around then you will never understand.

I was on a convoy hauling fuel to Taji in Iraq. We had National guard troops running the guns on the gun trucks when we ran into ambush. They did a round count of our troops after it was all over and one of the gunners had just hid in the truck and fired nothing. He had a fifty cal and didn't fire a shot.

Courage untested means nothing, we like to think we can fight back and some even carry weapons but it is the man behind the gun and if he is nuetered then he should leave the gun at home.

Again sorry if you are offended.

25
 
I was on a convoy hauling fuel to Taji in Iraq. We had National guard troops running the guns on the gun trucks when we ran into ambush. They did a round count of our troops after it was all over and one of the gunners had just hid in the truck and fired nothing. He had a fifty cal and didn't fire a shot.
Click to expand...

Props to you for serving. Thank you.

It is too bad that some people find that they are intimidated or lacking in courage when put into the fire. To that soldier's defense, it could be that his particular bit of cover was getting shot all to hell and if he even showed his nose for a second he would have been popped. Maybe so, maybe not. I don't know because I wasn't there.

I do know that I have defended my family before, putting my own safety in jeopardy for my brother. I know it's not something I'll ever do lightly again, and only for people that really and truly mean something to me, that if I die, at least I counted for something.

A nutcase kid with an AK (which for some reason happens for senseless reasons every 2 years or so) is not a reason for me to die. I will defend myself as well as I can, and my family, but not all 20,000 people in the Tacoma Mall.
 
azredhawk is correct

...and while it's easy to have lots of machismo (or in my case, machisma) sitting in my living room with my laptop on my lap, I would HOPE that caution would kick in if such a situation developed. I would, if possible, concentrate on getting people OUT rather than trying to get into a gun battle with the BG. That, too, is saving lives, and is far more in line with what might be possible than thinking I could take on the shooter.

My $.02

Springmom
 
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