Sir William
New member
XB had already done so. Read posts #83 and #84.
Could you squeeze the trigger?
- Thread starter Sir William
- Start date
XavierBreath
New member
Well, considerin' Spiff's rappeling trick, I have to reconsider my own position. A man's got to know his imitations.....uh limitations!
There ain't much a snubbie and a pocket full of C4 won't fix!
Seriously, I have to commend and appreciate all the brave souls who would go forward where others do not, undertaking overwhelming odds, with the knowlege that they may very well die. A man willing to give up his only life and everything he holds dear for a bunch of mall rats is the most self sacrificing hero I've yet seen.
There ain't much a snubbie and a pocket full of C4 won't fix!
Seriously, I have to commend and appreciate all the brave souls who would go forward where others do not, undertaking overwhelming odds, with the knowlege that they may very well die. A man willing to give up his only life and everything he holds dear for a bunch of mall rats is the most self sacrificing hero I've yet seen.
Intresting thread ---
The way I think about it:
I carry a 5 pound dry chem fire existinisher in my truck.
That does not mean that I stop at every housefire / car fire and attempt to put it out with a woefully inadequate tool
At the same time in theory it might be used someday to save my butt or someone else's if the circumstances were within the limits of the tool's capacity.
CCW is't all that diffirent.
Even if you happen to be carrying a full size gun -- remember it was after several high profile active shooter incidints that the LE began to look at patrol carbines, AR and so forth right down to the level of the patrol officer so I woudl think that we could all agree that this is a rifle fight, not a pistol fight.
A premeditated active shooter requires a rifle, or many of them.
Sure we can all think about the use of cover or the possibility for getting a good angle, suprise, and so forth, but this will probibly be the rare exception, not the rule in any engagement such as this so fight if directly confronted, otherwise retreat to safety is probibly the best default plan to have.
The way I think about it:
I carry a 5 pound dry chem fire existinisher in my truck.
That does not mean that I stop at every housefire / car fire and attempt to put it out with a woefully inadequate tool
At the same time in theory it might be used someday to save my butt or someone else's if the circumstances were within the limits of the tool's capacity.
CCW is't all that diffirent.
Even if you happen to be carrying a full size gun -- remember it was after several high profile active shooter incidints that the LE began to look at patrol carbines, AR and so forth right down to the level of the patrol officer so I woudl think that we could all agree that this is a rifle fight, not a pistol fight.
A premeditated active shooter requires a rifle, or many of them.
Sure we can all think about the use of cover or the possibility for getting a good angle, suprise, and so forth, but this will probibly be the rare exception, not the rule in any engagement such as this so fight if directly confronted, otherwise retreat to safety is probibly the best default plan to have.
The British Soldier
New member
I'd comfortably pull the trigger twice; put both round where I want them to go and have a couple of cold beers later to celebrate.
It's 'them' or 'us' in that situation.
It's 'them' or 'us' in that situation.
Double Naught Spy
New member
I find it interesting that rumor now has it that the good samaritan made a decision not to fire because of there being an unknown backstop and too many IBs in the area. Prior rumors via John Farnum indicated the good samaritan had a rusty CZ that failed to function properly.
I understand that both McKown and Mark Wilson are seen as heroes and in their own rights, they are. However, what seems to be driving their status is the fact that they were both seriously wounded, Wilson being fatally wounded. Neither seems to have used good tactics and as a result, they paid the price.
Mark Wilson's apartment overlooked the square in Tyler. He apparently saw what was happening, grabbed his pistol, and ran downstairs and out into the square to confront the gunman. Apparently by random chance, he chose to make a stand from behind the cover of a pickup truck engine. The truck, as it turned out, belonged to the gunman. Wilson apparently waiting until the gunman started a reload and open fired on him. Unfortunately, the gunman had on body armor and Wilsom failed to perform a failure to stop transition to a head shot. The gunman returned fire, downing Wilson, and then he walked over and executed Wilson.
What did Wilson do wrong? As a former gun range owner and firearms trainer, it was strange that Wilson opted to leave the safety of his vantage point over the square, taking a pistol to a fight where he could see the gunman had a rifle. Then when his fire was not effective, he did not change his aim point. Wilson's actions were heroic and he is credited with saving lives, only not his own. The sad thing is that he could have engaged the gunman from his apartment window where he would have had partial or total concealment and cover. It would also have been a location from which the gunman wasn't expecting fire since he was dealing with folks only on the ground.
McKown also apparently acted in a heroic manner, but blundered tactically and he is suffering for it. Assuming that he opted not to fire because of an uncertain backstop and IBs (as a very smart and safety-oriented shooter) and that he did confront the gunman as claimed by McKown's father, he is a hero. However, confronting a gunman with a gun, not using cover, and then opting not to fire are huge tactical blunders. Given that the gunman wasn't concerned for human life in he mall and so wasn't burdened with issues of backstops and IBs, of course he is going to open fire on a person who poses a threat to him. So the gunman fired 2-4 shots at McKown and struck him twice. Drawing one's gun on a gunman and not firing doesn't help much with self preservation.
Yes, they are heroes, but only for the fact that they chose to act, not for the fact that their poor tactics resulted in their own severe injury and death. The sad part is that neither should have ended up where they are today. They had bettter options available to them that would have still allowed them to engage the shooters as effectively or more effectively at a much lower risk to themselves.
Well, since I'm back from the grave so to speak, I have to put my .02 worth into this. (even if its only worth half that) 
I tend to agree with Trip, XB, USP45, and a few others. Views change as we get older and become more aware of our own mortality. I have recently gone through a life threatening (or drastically life altering) illness, and have started to see things in a bit different light. Does that mean I'm scared to die, or a coward? Hell no. It just means that there are things more important than 'self' or 'ego' or whatever the hell you want to call it. Would I have risked my life in that situation? If people were dying, and I had the means to stop it, I'd sure try. If my kids were with me? Doubtful. Unless he cornered me or was coming in my direction. If I were alone? I'd try. But I don't see me tailing a gunman, or moving to flank him and get a good shot, or any of that other crap. Odds are, even with the training I have had, the old body just doesn't react like it used to, and I'd end up a statistic. Oh well, I'm done blabbering. Off to annoy someone in another thread.
I tend to agree with Trip, XB, USP45, and a few others. Views change as we get older and become more aware of our own mortality. I have recently gone through a life threatening (or drastically life altering) illness, and have started to see things in a bit different light. Does that mean I'm scared to die, or a coward? Hell no. It just means that there are things more important than 'self' or 'ego' or whatever the hell you want to call it. Would I have risked my life in that situation? If people were dying, and I had the means to stop it, I'd sure try. If my kids were with me? Doubtful. Unless he cornered me or was coming in my direction. If I were alone? I'd try. But I don't see me tailing a gunman, or moving to flank him and get a good shot, or any of that other crap. Odds are, even with the training I have had, the old body just doesn't react like it used to, and I'd end up a statistic. Oh well, I'm done blabbering. Off to annoy someone in another thread.
azredhawk44
Moderator
That is a PERFECT allegory. According to some here, we should obviously try to put out a house fire with a garden hose and 1 fire extinguisher rather than evacuating everyone we can and waiting for the FD to get there.
XavierBreath
New member
More to the story!
The Plot Thickens!
Mall shooting victim is glad he held his fire
More might have been hit, he says
By SAM SKOLNIK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
In one of his first interviews since the shooting at the Tacoma Mall on Nov. 20, victim Brendan McKown said Monday he feared that if he had taken a shot at the man firing into the crowds, he might have only caused other shoppers to get struck by bullets.
When the shooting started, McKown, a mall store assistant manager with a license to carry a firearm, said he didn't know who was firing at whom. So he made a snap decision not to stand up and fire back. "It could be three policemen firing at one guy, and I could come out and be another target," he said.
Mall shooting victim Brendan McKown answers reporters' questions with humor from his hospital bed at Tacoma General on Monday.
So he yelled at the man to drop his gun -- a move that only caused the gunman to pivot and fire at McKown, striking him, he said, five or six times. The shots blew him back several feet, he said.
"When I changed into another position, I see just the most surreal sight," McKown said from his bed at Tacoma General Hospital in a pool interview conducted by KOMO/4. "It's a young Arabic-looking boy ... with a ball cap on and an AK in his hand," he said, referring to the weapon he thought the shooter was firing, an AK-47 assault rifle.
"So I said, 'Put down the weapon!' " continued McKown. "Obviously, he was faster on the draw than I was."
Of six shooting victims, McKown, 38, was the most seriously injured. He said he has no movement in his left leg and only 10 percent normal movement in his right. He isn't sure if he'll ever walk again, though he's hopeful and determined to do so.
Police arrested Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, in the shooting. They also say he took four hostages at a Sam Goody music store at the mall. Pierce County prosecutors charged Maldonado with eight counts of first-degree assault, four counts of first-degree kidnapping and two counts of unlawful possession of a firearm.
As an assistant manager of the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store, McKown was on his way to make a deposit at the time of the shooting. Tacoma police said he was legally permitted to be carrying a pistol at the time.
"It's a stupid statement, but I have a concealed weapons permit in case some idiot shoots up a mall," said McKown, who added that he likely would return to his job, and may also start doing stand-up comedy again.
McKown on Monday was upgraded to satisfactory condition, said Todd Kelley, a spokesman for Tacoma General. Kelley said McKown might be discharged in the next couple of days to a rehabilitation clinic.
McKown was struck twice in the abdomen, and he also suffered an injury to his spinal cord. Surgery to remove bullet and bone fragments from his spinal canal was successful, though he faces the possibility of partial or permanent paralysis.
McKown said that in the end, he was thankful to be alive. "I'd be lying if I thought I was doing great," he said. "But I sure got off light, all things considered."
The Plot Thickens!
Mall shooting victim is glad he held his fire
More might have been hit, he says
By SAM SKOLNIK
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER
In one of his first interviews since the shooting at the Tacoma Mall on Nov. 20, victim Brendan McKown said Monday he feared that if he had taken a shot at the man firing into the crowds, he might have only caused other shoppers to get struck by bullets.
When the shooting started, McKown, a mall store assistant manager with a license to carry a firearm, said he didn't know who was firing at whom. So he made a snap decision not to stand up and fire back. "It could be three policemen firing at one guy, and I could come out and be another target," he said.
Mall shooting victim Brendan McKown answers reporters' questions with humor from his hospital bed at Tacoma General on Monday.
So he yelled at the man to drop his gun -- a move that only caused the gunman to pivot and fire at McKown, striking him, he said, five or six times. The shots blew him back several feet, he said.
"When I changed into another position, I see just the most surreal sight," McKown said from his bed at Tacoma General Hospital in a pool interview conducted by KOMO/4. "It's a young Arabic-looking boy ... with a ball cap on and an AK in his hand," he said, referring to the weapon he thought the shooter was firing, an AK-47 assault rifle.
"So I said, 'Put down the weapon!' " continued McKown. "Obviously, he was faster on the draw than I was."
Of six shooting victims, McKown, 38, was the most seriously injured. He said he has no movement in his left leg and only 10 percent normal movement in his right. He isn't sure if he'll ever walk again, though he's hopeful and determined to do so.
Police arrested Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, in the shooting. They also say he took four hostages at a Sam Goody music store at the mall. Pierce County prosecutors charged Maldonado with eight counts of first-degree assault, four counts of first-degree kidnapping and two counts of unlawful possession of a firearm.
As an assistant manager of the Excalibur Cutlery and Gifts store, McKown was on his way to make a deposit at the time of the shooting. Tacoma police said he was legally permitted to be carrying a pistol at the time.
"It's a stupid statement, but I have a concealed weapons permit in case some idiot shoots up a mall," said McKown, who added that he likely would return to his job, and may also start doing stand-up comedy again.
McKown on Monday was upgraded to satisfactory condition, said Todd Kelley, a spokesman for Tacoma General. Kelley said McKown might be discharged in the next couple of days to a rehabilitation clinic.
McKown was struck twice in the abdomen, and he also suffered an injury to his spinal cord. Surgery to remove bullet and bone fragments from his spinal canal was successful, though he faces the possibility of partial or permanent paralysis.
McKown said that in the end, he was thankful to be alive. "I'd be lying if I thought I was doing great," he said. "But I sure got off light, all things considered."
XavierBreath
New member
Double Naught Spy..+1.
I wish I could be so eloquent. What both these men forgot is their bad guy does not have to play by the rules. He can shoot irregardless of bystanders, and he came knowing he was going to be in a shootout. He has every advantage.
The only advantage a CCW holder has in such a scenerio is surprise. Once he gives up his element of surprise, he is at an extreme disadvantage. Tactics, not weaponery enables survival in gunfights.