Considering a j frame
- Thread starter oneloudvous
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Doc Holliday 1950
New member
My 461 Rossi 357 is accurate as you'd want. Handles all 38 spec +P loads and certain 357 loads comfortably. it's a six shooter and weighs 24 ozs. DA is a bit stiff and SA is super. Not too costly. Goes for about $240 at Buds and $300 for the stainless steel. I think that this is the best Rossi makes. In researching this I found that they had very few issues with this model.
Doc
Doc
I carried a 642 for several years. I cannot honestly say that I enjoyed practicing with it, and my wife and daughters wouldn't even pick it up. Hand strength and technique of all four of us is good enough to enjoy and shoot well with other handguns, and for that matter I shot it accurately enough, but recoil was enough to take the fun out of it for me.
I had a Ruger LCR in 38 special(stiff competitor to the Smith J frames), but after I acquired the M&P Shield 9MM I felt I no longer had much use for it. I can pocket carry the Shield with the right holster.
Recoil, there's no comparison. The J frames and other lightweight revolvers transfer all recoil energy into the hand. The Shield has a dual captive spring and a steel slide that will absorb the recoil from the higher pressure 9mm rounds and it does a fabulous job doing it. I've always felt the Shield handles like a larger gun.
Recoil, there's no comparison. The J frames and other lightweight revolvers transfer all recoil energy into the hand. The Shield has a dual captive spring and a steel slide that will absorb the recoil from the higher pressure 9mm rounds and it does a fabulous job doing it. I've always felt the Shield handles like a larger gun.
Poor grip or technique leading to excessive recoil.....with the aluminum j-frames ? NONSENSE. Poor grip or weak hands can make it WORSE - but the recoil from the 442 and 642 (among other models) is STOUT to begin with. Soft, spongy rubber grips will help - but the little suckers still produce alot of recoil.
My recommendation is to avoid the "Airweight", "Airlite", etc. models of the Smith & Wesson J-frames - and get a STEEL-framed J-frame - like the model 60. Definitely more expensive, no doubt (that was always my objection, until I experienced what I describe above, then I got over it). A J-frame of 21 oz. (empty) or more, vs. one of 11.5, 13, or even 15 oz. will make a HUGE difference. FAR, FAR more comfortable to shoot - which means you'll actually practice with it - rather than avoiding it because it hurts.
If you want simply a carry gun and can't afford a steel smith & wesson, the Taurus model 85 or 605 is not bad.....and much cheaper. Get the stainless model, not the black oxide finish (the black oxide ones rust like crazy). The stainless 85 is about 21 oz. empty....and the 605 is about 24 oz. empty.
But, if you can afford it, your best bet would be an S&W model 60. I finally found a late-80's model 60-3, with a somewhat beaten up finish, for $400. Mechanically perfect. A stainless gun is easy to "refinish" - I simply buffed out the handling/ holster marks. Looks nearly new. I carry it almost every day.
My recommendation is to avoid the "Airweight", "Airlite", etc. models of the Smith & Wesson J-frames - and get a STEEL-framed J-frame - like the model 60. Definitely more expensive, no doubt (that was always my objection, until I experienced what I describe above, then I got over it). A J-frame of 21 oz. (empty) or more, vs. one of 11.5, 13, or even 15 oz. will make a HUGE difference. FAR, FAR more comfortable to shoot - which means you'll actually practice with it - rather than avoiding it because it hurts.
If you want simply a carry gun and can't afford a steel smith & wesson, the Taurus model 85 or 605 is not bad.....and much cheaper. Get the stainless model, not the black oxide finish (the black oxide ones rust like crazy). The stainless 85 is about 21 oz. empty....and the 605 is about 24 oz. empty.
But, if you can afford it, your best bet would be an S&W model 60. I finally found a late-80's model 60-3, with a somewhat beaten up finish, for $400. Mechanically perfect. A stainless gun is easy to "refinish" - I simply buffed out the handling/ holster marks. Looks nearly new. I carry it almost every day.
Dave Chuppa
New member
My Wife shoots a 442. She has the weekest hands in the world. She shoots it prity good. You practice until your hand gets tired. There is a ton of different grips you can use. Dry fire practice helps with trigger control and sight aliegnment. If you can't see the sight well, paint it. We put a Hogue Tamer Grip on her 442 for a lot of shooting and left the Stock Uncle Mike's on mine. I also like the LCR357. It has a nice trigger and soft grip. I shoot 38 out of it these days. I save 357 Ammo for the heavy guns now.
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Grips definitely make a difference, but the ones that usually do, really arent suited for carrying the gun discretely.
Ive had them come from Smith with grips that nearly equal K/L frame grips size wise, which never made any sense to me. The whole point of these guns is its size, so why reduce that effectiveness with oversize grips?.
This is how I prefer them set up.....
Standard service type stocks with a T Grip. Not as pleasant as some, but the most concealable, easiest to get a hold of in pretty much any carry scenario, and about as anti snag as they come. Ive tried a number of the boot type grips too, and for me, they just dont work as well.
Ive had them come from Smith with grips that nearly equal K/L frame grips size wise, which never made any sense to me. The whole point of these guns is its size, so why reduce that effectiveness with oversize grips?.
This is how I prefer them set up.....
Standard service type stocks with a T Grip. Not as pleasant as some, but the most concealable, easiest to get a hold of in pretty much any carry scenario, and about as anti snag as they come. Ive tried a number of the boot type grips too, and for me, they just dont work as well.
Grips and fitment to the hand are key for recoil management in these guns. I actually find the stock rubber boot grips to be just about perfect, with the wood service stocks and T-Grips pictured above coming in a close second. Recoil isn't too bad, but it isn't as pleasant as shooting .38s out of a S&W Model 14 either. If you have arthritis, you probably won't like the recoil.
The J frame, with proper technique, is a superbly shootable and accurate little gun. They do take some time to figure out, but I found that Jerry Miculek's grip technique works best for me (google it).
The trigger is frequently gritty to start out, but over thousands of cycles and a single cleaning / reoiiling of the lockwork made a huge difference. Its not quite as smooth as some of my other Smiths, but it is quite good.
The only reason I don't carry my 642 more frequently is K, L and N frame S&Ws are a little more forgiving of grip and sight alignment errors for me, and those guns give me the bonus of an extra round or two.
The J frame, with proper technique, is a superbly shootable and accurate little gun. They do take some time to figure out, but I found that Jerry Miculek's grip technique works best for me (google it).
The trigger is frequently gritty to start out, but over thousands of cycles and a single cleaning / reoiiling of the lockwork made a huge difference. Its not quite as smooth as some of my other Smiths, but it is quite good.
The only reason I don't carry my 642 more frequently is K, L and N frame S&Ws are a little more forgiving of grip and sight alignment errors for me, and those guns give me the bonus of an extra round or two.
I found the ugly but effective Delta ERGO grip
http://ergogrips.net/delta-grip.html
Still allows pocket carry in most of my shorts that have reasonably sized pockets.
oneloudvous
New member
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Im gonna try to rent either a 442/642 or Ruger LCR and see what I think. If I can't rent one then I may buy the one that feels better in my hand and hope I find it shootable. If it's unpleasant I'll have to look into aftermarket grips etc.
any comments on the LCR 38 vs 442 would be appreciated.
Im gonna try to rent either a 442/642 or Ruger LCR and see what I think. If I can't rent one then I may buy the one that feels better in my hand and hope I find it shootable. If it's unpleasant I'll have to look into aftermarket grips etc.
any comments on the LCR 38 vs 442 would be appreciated.
cc-hangfire
New member
I realize I'm a little late to the discussion. I have both Shield & 642, and you won't find recoil of the snubbie unusual since the Shield is a fairly light handgun. I also found the Delta ERGO grip fits my hand although it looks like a potatoe mashed onto the gun. Shoot one before you commit; I'm still working toward getting acceptable accuracy with the DA trigger pull & short sight radius of a snubbie.
Something to consider with the 442 if youre worried about looks. A buddy of mine carried one daily for a number of years, and it really looked beat up compared to the 642 I was using during the same time period.
The contrast in finish wear between the two is a good bit different, and the aluminum under the black finish of the 442, really stands out, as the finish comes off. Its not near as noticeable with the 642's.
They are carry guns, and as such, do get beat up, but the black 442 really gets pretty nasty looking over time, and really shows its "character" a lot more.
The contrast in finish wear between the two is a good bit different, and the aluminum under the black finish of the 442, really stands out, as the finish comes off. Its not near as noticeable with the 642's.
They are carry guns, and as such, do get beat up, but the black 442 really gets pretty nasty looking over time, and really shows its "character" a lot more.
Doc Intrepid
New member
I own 4 S&W J-Frames, and as you might expect, I'm a fan of them. They're excellent choices for self-defense at very close ranges.
In terms of comparisons, I have a Model 60, a Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard, a Model 640 in stainless steel and a Model 642 Airweight. I'm convinced that the all stainless steel J-Frames are slightly easier to shoot because of their slight increase in weight - although that extra weight can pose challenges for pocket carry (makes clothing hang lop-sided). The Model 60 has a hammer spur and as such isn't really a candidate for pocket carry, but I use it in a left-handed OWB belt holster and it works fine out of a OWB holster.
I use only Winchester Silvertips and Federal Hydra-Shok as carry rounds in mine, YMMV. I suspect that at ranges of direct contact to 3' or 4' it may not make a huge difference.
The biggest drawback for me is difficulty reloading as quickly as with magazines. J-Frames are a bitch to reload fast, even if you practice, particularly under stress. I've concluded that the fastest reload for a J-Frame is carrying a second J-Frame. For me they're essentially 5-shot derringers.
Along the same lines, you may also want to look at the Kahr PM40 and PM9. If you set one beside any S&W J-Frame, you'll note 2 factors: (1) they're exactly the same size, except the Kahr pistols are thinner - having no cylinder. (2) the Kahr offers 6 rounds to the J-Frame's 5 rounds, and the Kahr can be reloaded more quickly with spare magazines.
For carrying in something like jeans pockets, in my experience the Kahr pistols (which are slick-sided striker-fired pistols) don't offer that cylinder bulge that can print J-Frames in jeans pockets.
So as was recommended above, "try before you buy"; and consider carefully what sort of defensive scenarios you're planning for. J-Frames are awesome self-defense handguns, but like anything they offer advantages and disadvantages.
Just an opinion.
In terms of comparisons, I have a Model 60, a Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard, a Model 640 in stainless steel and a Model 642 Airweight. I'm convinced that the all stainless steel J-Frames are slightly easier to shoot because of their slight increase in weight - although that extra weight can pose challenges for pocket carry (makes clothing hang lop-sided). The Model 60 has a hammer spur and as such isn't really a candidate for pocket carry, but I use it in a left-handed OWB belt holster and it works fine out of a OWB holster.
I use only Winchester Silvertips and Federal Hydra-Shok as carry rounds in mine, YMMV. I suspect that at ranges of direct contact to 3' or 4' it may not make a huge difference.
The biggest drawback for me is difficulty reloading as quickly as with magazines. J-Frames are a bitch to reload fast, even if you practice, particularly under stress. I've concluded that the fastest reload for a J-Frame is carrying a second J-Frame. For me they're essentially 5-shot derringers.
Along the same lines, you may also want to look at the Kahr PM40 and PM9. If you set one beside any S&W J-Frame, you'll note 2 factors: (1) they're exactly the same size, except the Kahr pistols are thinner - having no cylinder. (2) the Kahr offers 6 rounds to the J-Frame's 5 rounds, and the Kahr can be reloaded more quickly with spare magazines.
For carrying in something like jeans pockets, in my experience the Kahr pistols (which are slick-sided striker-fired pistols) don't offer that cylinder bulge that can print J-Frames in jeans pockets.
So as was recommended above, "try before you buy"; and consider carefully what sort of defensive scenarios you're planning for. J-Frames are awesome self-defense handguns, but like anything they offer advantages and disadvantages.
Just an opinion.
Jim Watson
New member
I am taking my neighbor and his wife to the range on Monday to give her a chance to shoot an Airweight .38 such as he would like to outfit her with.
I will also have along a steel J frame and a K frame so she can get a feel for the compromises in control and portability that can be made.
Of course an automatic is out of the question, it is much too complicated for them to even consider.
I will also have along a steel J frame and a K frame so she can get a feel for the compromises in control and portability that can be made.
Of course an automatic is out of the question, it is much too complicated for them to even consider.
Ive usually included one of my Airweights when Ive gone to the range with people who want to try things out.
Many seem to gravitate to them, right up to the point they actually pull the trigger. Most after that first cylinder full, put them down, and look at something else.
Theres no doubt in my mind, the smaller, lighter J frames, are more of an experienced shooters gun, than they are a beginners gun. Even the all steel versions are not all that great for a beginner. They do require more, and constant practice to stay on top of them.
I always used to think that a revolver was the best choice for most beginners, but lately, Ive been finding more and more, thats not always necessarily the case. If you have someone willing to listen and learn, and they dont have issues with working the slide, I think for some, the autos actually make the better choice. Its definitely not the right choice for everyone though, and the decision needs to made by both the shooter/instructor on a case by case basis.
springer99
New member
IMHO, a J frame in 38Spl like a 442 or 642, coupled with a CT lazer grip, is just about as good as it gets for pocket carry. Of course you need to practice to apply it best, but isn't that true with all guns. Very accurate, lightweight, small, powerful and extremely reliable with about anything that fills the cylinder.