IMHO,the point the law was broken was when Justin pointed gun at LEO`S. Might I add he`s lucky to be alive. LEO`S made a mistake on address, did Justin have to open door,don`t think so. Also if Justin thought cops were phony(it happens) a 911 call to dispatcher by Justin would have straightened call location mistake out. You simply can`t open your door and point a gun at person(LEO or not) standing on the other side of it simply cause you don`t want them standing there. Wrong address yes! Good 'Bust' yes.
Civil Rights as pertains to Arrest
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Update 2-28-09
Here is a bit more on the story, from the Murfreesboro Post. Emphasis Mine.
Father, Iraqi war vet file complaint with MPD
By: Lisa Marchesoni
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:20 pm
Murfreesboro Police are investigating a call where an Iraqi war veteran was charged with pulling a firearm on two officers apparently answering a 911 call at the wrong address.
Officers Matt Garrett and Brad Premo responded to the 911 call about 3:30 a.m. Sunday at Campus Crossing South to do a welfare check. They reported they knocked on the door and identified themselves as police officers.
Garrett reported Justin T. Chilton, 20, of 2707 S. Rutherford Blvd. told the officers to back away from the door, screamed and pointed a handgun at them. Garrett charged him with two counts of aggravated assault on police officers, possession of a firearm under age 21, possession of a firearm under the influence and underage consumption of alcohol.
Premo charged his father, Roger Chilton, 51, of Meadow Court with public intoxication and resisting arrest.
Attorney Jack Mitchell, who represents the father and son on the criminal charges, said dispatchers sent the officers to Campus Crossing North.
“They went to (Campus Crossing) South by mistake,” Mitchell said.
Justin Chilton served in Iraq and returned home one month ago, the attorney said.
“Based on what I have been told, he acted as any homeowner would do but was probably more level-headed because of his training,” Mitchell said.
The father and son filed a complaint with Murfreesboro Police.
Police Chief Glenn Chrisman said Internal Affairs is reviewing all information including arrest reports, tapes and the conversation about the call for service.
“The officers that were involved are on duty and were not put on administrative leave,” Chrisman said.
Internal Affairs talked to the Chiltons and are following up on the investigation.
“Based on what we know now, they did go to the wrong address,” Chrisman said, adding Internal Affairs will look at what the officers were confronted with as part of the probe.
More as it becomes available.
Here is a bit more on the story, from the Murfreesboro Post. Emphasis Mine.
Father, Iraqi war vet file complaint with MPD
By: Lisa Marchesoni
Posted: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:20 pm
Murfreesboro Police are investigating a call where an Iraqi war veteran was charged with pulling a firearm on two officers apparently answering a 911 call at the wrong address.
Officers Matt Garrett and Brad Premo responded to the 911 call about 3:30 a.m. Sunday at Campus Crossing South to do a welfare check. They reported they knocked on the door and identified themselves as police officers.
Garrett reported Justin T. Chilton, 20, of 2707 S. Rutherford Blvd. told the officers to back away from the door, screamed and pointed a handgun at them. Garrett charged him with two counts of aggravated assault on police officers, possession of a firearm under age 21, possession of a firearm under the influence and underage consumption of alcohol.
Premo charged his father, Roger Chilton, 51, of Meadow Court with public intoxication and resisting arrest.
Attorney Jack Mitchell, who represents the father and son on the criminal charges, said dispatchers sent the officers to Campus Crossing North.
“They went to (Campus Crossing) South by mistake,” Mitchell said.
Justin Chilton served in Iraq and returned home one month ago, the attorney said.
“Based on what I have been told, he acted as any homeowner would do but was probably more level-headed because of his training,” Mitchell said.
The father and son filed a complaint with Murfreesboro Police.
Police Chief Glenn Chrisman said Internal Affairs is reviewing all information including arrest reports, tapes and the conversation about the call for service.
“The officers that were involved are on duty and were not put on administrative leave,” Chrisman said.
Internal Affairs talked to the Chiltons and are following up on the investigation.
“Based on what we know now, they did go to the wrong address,” Chrisman said, adding Internal Affairs will look at what the officers were confronted with as part of the probe.
More as it becomes available.
Hmmm! If father was in the house and didn`t come out till he was told to do so by LEO, why did he get charged with public intox.? As far as charges on son:IMO this is a classic thats never made since to me. We can take our 18yr. olds into the military, train them with some of the most sophisticated killing weapons and technique`s used for killing,turn em loose overseas to fight and get their butts shot at, but come back home and can`t own(posses) till 21yrs. old. Before someone jumps in and says "this thread right here is why 21 or under can`t posses firearm". Please don`t. In many cases I`d rather be around some of the young GI`S that`s just had weapon`s training then some older guys I`ve been shooting/hunting around. To date(with info given) I still feel Justin should have been arrested for pointing gun at LEO. Of course unless there`s a whole lot more to this story thats not being told and those intimate details are the reason`s for these specific charges. I.E. Father willingly coming out of the house during confrontation son was having with LEO over pulling guns and gets involved. As far as Jack Mitchell`s (attorney) statement of Chilton acting as any normal homeowner would??? Note to self: Never ever knock on Jack Mitchell`s door unless invited. Do not get his address by mistake.
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Y'all can argue right or wrong about the events, that is what the post was intended for.... however my curiosity lies in what happened involving the 911 call at the RIGHT address??
As a sidenote.... and I am not defending the yute, if two men show up at my door in the middle of the night claiming to be police officers and I didn't call them, I am not coming out and they are not coming in till I am 100% sure they are indeed cops... Who knows how tempers may play a role in that situation? Could be good or bad from either side.
As a sidenote.... and I am not defending the yute, if two men show up at my door in the middle of the night claiming to be police officers and I didn't call them, I am not coming out and they are not coming in till I am 100% sure they are indeed cops... Who knows how tempers may play a role in that situation? Could be good or bad from either side.
In Tennessee you may own a gun of any type at 18, just cannot get a CCW permit for carry off your property. as pointed out earler by :
I think the only charge they might make stick as far as "Underage" would be the alcohol, and they probably won't get that unless they did a blood or other test. Personal experience says that unless the officer saw him with the bottle this charge will get dismissed.
good question, waiting for more info on this myself.
"So, thus far critical thinking dictates a question; if you are inside your residence, and someone knocks on the door claiming to be the police, are you required by law to open the door?"
As far as I am concerned, ABSOLUTELY NOT!
"And would any reasonable person go to the door at 0300 with a firearm in hand to see what the problem was?"
I've you've lived in some of the placed I've had to due to financial circumstances. I'd durn tootin". We've been having some home invasions where one drug outfit pretends to be the law and does a SWAT type raid.
You can darn well bet I'll be armed if someone knocks on my door at 0300 hours.
Paul B.
As far as I am concerned, ABSOLUTELY NOT!
"And would any reasonable person go to the door at 0300 with a firearm in hand to see what the problem was?"
I've you've lived in some of the placed I've had to due to financial circumstances. I'd durn tootin". We've been having some home invasions where one drug outfit pretends to be the law and does a SWAT type raid.
You can darn well bet I'll be armed if someone knocks on my door at 0300 hours.
Paul B.
vranasaurus
New member
There is a difference between being armed when answering the door at 3AM, which I would do, and opening the door while pointing a gun at a police officer.
If you think you need to point a gun at the person who is a your door you have no business opening your door.
If you are that unsure if the people at your door are in fact police I would not open the door and would place a call to 911.
If you think you need to point a gun at the person who is a your door you have no business opening your door.
If you are that unsure if the people at your door are in fact police I would not open the door and would place a call to 911.
Wildalaska
Moderator
Isn't it just amazing how simple life can be? Someone is banging on your door screaming police police get on that phone to 911 and get those tapes running before you decide to rambo
WildlifeisgrandisntitAlaska ™
I agree with Wild----It goes back to the resisting arrest post. Comply on scene, litigate Monday morning.
I am sorry, it is not reasonable for law abiding citizen to actively not answer the door for the Police. I won't even touch on the brandishing of a weapon
Don't want to talk to the Police---fine, don't answer door. Then I would have to get a warrant and you won't be bothered, unless, there are exigent circumstances---hot pursuit, threat to life, etc.
In the words of Dalton---"BE NICE"
I am sorry, it is not reasonable for law abiding citizen to actively not answer the door for the Police. I won't even touch on the brandishing of a weapon
Don't want to talk to the Police---fine, don't answer door. Then I would have to get a warrant and you won't be bothered, unless, there are exigent circumstances---hot pursuit, threat to life, etc.
In the words of Dalton---"BE NICE"
I am going to ask a couple of questions that pertain to the circumstances under which the arrest being discussed was made.
Wagonman,
You said:
Let's play hypotheticals for a moment, let's say that a 911 call (for this question it is a "hang-up") and you are dispatched for a check. You wind up at the wrong address somehow, and go to the door and knock.
If I am inside, hear the knock, hear someone announce "Police" and decide to remain quietly inside and not answer the door, how will this be handled?
Will you simply walk away since you have no warrant, and that's it?
And under the same circumstances, if I do open my mouth and tell you your services are not required, that I did not call, am I somehow now bound by some law to open the door?
As you read these questions please remember, I ask only to try and learn, these are not jabs at the officers at all. I am trying to be clear on how this type of thing is actually handled.
Wagonman,
You said:
Let's play hypotheticals for a moment, let's say that a 911 call (for this question it is a "hang-up") and you are dispatched for a check. You wind up at the wrong address somehow, and go to the door and knock.
If I am inside, hear the knock, hear someone announce "Police" and decide to remain quietly inside and not answer the door, how will this be handled?
Will you simply walk away since you have no warrant, and that's it?
And under the same circumstances, if I do open my mouth and tell you your services are not required, that I did not call, am I somehow now bound by some law to open the door?
As you read these questions please remember, I ask only to try and learn, these are not jabs at the officers at all. I am trying to be clear on how this type of thing is actually handled.
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If I am inside, hear the knock, hear someone announce "Police" and decide to remain quietly inside and not answer the door, how will this be handled?
Will you simply walk away since you have no warrant, and that's it?
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I would radio my dispatcher and get a "callback" if there is no answer or voice mail I code out the job and jump back in the squad and leave with a hearty HI HO SILVER AWAY!!!
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And under the same circumstances, if I do open my mouth and tell you your services are not required, that I did not call, am I somehow now bound by some law to open the door?
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It depends on the situation, if I have a REASONABLE suspicion something is going on that requires my intervention i.e. domestic battery, burglary etc. I can and will boot the door and handcuff everyone I think is a bad guy, and sort it out in the interview room at the station.
That said, for me and just about any Copper I have worked with it has to be pretty cut and dried and the spidey sense has to be tingling for me to get into that kind of play.
I understand the Civil Liberty arguement but, REASONABLE people will cooperate with a Police Officer investigating a crime as long as the the Police Officer is being REASONABLE.
It is not UNREASONABLE to talk to a Police Officer that knocks on your door.
It is not illegal to not talk to a Police Officer that knocks on your door. But, decisions have consequences.
If there is a "threat" to you it is not from a street cop it is from someone with a gold badge and wing tips
Will you simply walk away since you have no warrant, and that's it?
--------------------------------------------------------------
I would radio my dispatcher and get a "callback" if there is no answer or voice mail I code out the job and jump back in the squad and leave with a hearty HI HO SILVER AWAY!!!
=========================================================
And under the same circumstances, if I do open my mouth and tell you your services are not required, that I did not call, am I somehow now bound by some law to open the door?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
It depends on the situation, if I have a REASONABLE suspicion something is going on that requires my intervention i.e. domestic battery, burglary etc. I can and will boot the door and handcuff everyone I think is a bad guy, and sort it out in the interview room at the station.
That said, for me and just about any Copper I have worked with it has to be pretty cut and dried and the spidey sense has to be tingling for me to get into that kind of play.
I understand the Civil Liberty arguement but, REASONABLE people will cooperate with a Police Officer investigating a crime as long as the the Police Officer is being REASONABLE.
It is not UNREASONABLE to talk to a Police Officer that knocks on your door.
It is not illegal to not talk to a Police Officer that knocks on your door. But, decisions have consequences.
If there is a "threat" to you it is not from a street cop it is from someone with a gold badge and wing tips
I had a similar experience with the Suffolk County Police Department on Long Island, New York. Same situation, after cuffing me in me under wear and taking me out of my Home(domain), they did a total search of my House without my permission in fact I told them they did not have my permission, they found to NY State grandfather "pre-ban rifles. They interrogated me at the precinct. And threw me in a holding cell,,this happened at 1 am, with a bunch of skells,,bear in mind I was never given the chance to put clothing on and was also bare footed. In their reports they noted that I did not resist arrest. They arrested me for menacing a police officer,,bear in mind they entered my home, before I could get to the door. Besides the idiots charged me with 2 felonies possession of 2 assault rifles! I was arraigned before the court still in my under wear and bare feet. As a retired NYDC(Rikers Island) Captain, I knew they screwed the pooch! Well a simple BATF check of the serial numbers would have opened their eyes immediately! So their I am before the Judge, I let him know of their total disregard for my Constitutional rights and that in fact they entered the wrong home,,and that if the morons checked the serial numbers etc. I would not have been violated as such as these nonprofessional's were.
Well, back to the holding cell,,then after a couple of hours I was before his Honor and released!
Well, my wife who is a Cop returned home in the morning and asked the detectives searching and tearing about our home what the hell were they doing! One SCPD's finest said do you always keep a machine gun in your house! AR-15,,complete idiots. ca-ching!
If I was African-american Al Sharton would have been marching his mob in front my local pct.!
Boy did the shtf! The NYS SIC (Attorney jerks headed by Andrew the liberal as father where of no help),,The FBI could give a sht! So We sued them in Federal Court! Well, my kids can go to any University the want now.
Well, back to the holding cell,,then after a couple of hours I was before his Honor and released!
Well, my wife who is a Cop returned home in the morning and asked the detectives searching and tearing about our home what the hell were they doing! One SCPD's finest said do you always keep a machine gun in your house! AR-15,,complete idiots. ca-ching!
If I was African-american Al Sharton would have been marching his mob in front my local pct.!
Boy did the shtf! The NYS SIC (Attorney jerks headed by Andrew the liberal as father where of no help),,The FBI could give a sht! So We sued them in Federal Court! Well, my kids can go to any University the want now.
I am taking an LE class right now, as I am getting ready to apply for the Police force, and they way it was presented to me, according to federal law, it is a citizens right to resist unlawful arrest. But the catch is proving it is gonna be really hard to do. 95 percent of the time if you aren't guilty I would say the best option would be to let them take you downtown, get a bail bond, (if you need one), and then prove your not guilty in court, because if they decide it was a lawful arrest, you are going to face charges of resisting arrest.
There is no good answer to this kind of situation. The cops screwed up, as did the HO. It seems alcohol may have played a role.
I don't have a problem with someone answering a pounding on the door at 3am with a gun in hand. Seems like a perfectly rational thing to do IMO.
Pointing a gun at anyone (if that is what actually happened) that you have no intention to shoot is a real bad idea.
Its unlikely we anyone will ever know what really happened. In most cases like this there is a story the police have that they stick to, and a story that the other side has that they stick to. No way to tell with any certainty who is telling the truth. Its even quite possible both sides believe their own stories.
I don't have a problem with someone answering a pounding on the door at 3am with a gun in hand. Seems like a perfectly rational thing to do IMO.
Pointing a gun at anyone (if that is what actually happened) that you have no intention to shoot is a real bad idea.
Its unlikely we anyone will ever know what really happened. In most cases like this there is a story the police have that they stick to, and a story that the other side has that they stick to. No way to tell with any certainty who is telling the truth. Its even quite possible both sides believe their own stories.
http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-Liberties-Examiner~y2009m3d9-Cops-press-charges-against-men-who-scared-them
This was an interesting take on this incident by the civil liberties examiner. ^^
I believe this is going to court in a few days, hopefully some new light will be shed. will post as news surfaces.
This was an interesting take on this incident by the civil liberties examiner. ^^
I believe this is going to court in a few days, hopefully some new light will be shed. will post as news surfaces.
A bit more has come to light on this incident, seems the officers did NOT identify themselves. heads are starting to roll.
A link to some disturbing video here:
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=10017849
A link to some disturbing video here:
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=10017849
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Earlier in this thread Wild suggested that I critically anaylize this case not on individual circumstances, but on the face of circumstances as a whole.
So far these are the conclusions I can reach from facts and commentary by professional LE ;
If a 911 call is dispatched to your address LE is going to respond, if you do not answer the door there are 2 possible outcomes...
Or...
Now with that in mind, someone suggested that if you are not sure if it is a police officer at the door (as was this case) that you call 911 to confirm.
I wonder if the officers are going to just stand around and wait for this to happen or...
Either way, it appears thus far that you have no rights if LE wants to speak with you. You will either comply with the "Reasonable" demand that you submit to a search of you and your premesis, regardless of the situation, or you are going to be a criminal, and charged as such, then litigate it out in court.
The fact that you have no rights in your own home, and to live without fear that this can happen to anyone , at any time. is very troublesome to me.
I may change my mind as this moves forward, but right now it really seems quite screwed up.
So far these are the conclusions I can reach from facts and commentary by professional LE ;
If a 911 call is dispatched to your address LE is going to respond, if you do not answer the door there are 2 possible outcomes...
Or...
Now with that in mind, someone suggested that if you are not sure if it is a police officer at the door (as was this case) that you call 911 to confirm.
I wonder if the officers are going to just stand around and wait for this to happen or...
Either way, it appears thus far that you have no rights if LE wants to speak with you. You will either comply with the "Reasonable" demand that you submit to a search of you and your premesis, regardless of the situation, or you are going to be a criminal, and charged as such, then litigate it out in court.
The fact that you have no rights in your own home, and to live without fear that this can happen to anyone , at any time. is very troublesome to me.
I may change my mind as this moves forward, but right now it really seems quite screwed up.
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