CCW Class...How They Have Changed.

[zincwarrior]

Back in 1997, not long after it was enacted, I got my Texas CHL. The class was fairly rigorous and took up a full day. In 2000, I moved to a state that didn't allow CC at the time (Ohio). Knowing I would be returning home, I didn't get an Ohio CCW while there. I finally returned and got my Texas LTC in 2016. Man! How things have changed! The half-day class barely covered any of the things I considered critical back in '97, chief among which is non-violent conflict resolution. The shooting aspect wasn't radically different, but I wish they would not have eliminated so much of the cerebral part of carrying a weapon. I unequivocally support the RTKBA, but I also support teaching the accompanying responsibilities just as strongly.

This is exactly how I felt. I could care less about the shooting aspect. CHL holders need to know the law, how its applied, and real world scenarios to avoid conflict and when its appropriate to use.

 

[davidsog]

f a law says an exemption is granted to "retired" military,

Even the retired are discharged. There is a difference between discharge, seperation, and getting a piece of paper that says "discharge.

I have 4 Honorable discharge certificates including the one issued with my flag and pin upon retirement.

Technically I was only separated though in 2012 as retiree's enter the Retired Ready Reserve and are subject to recall until 30 years of active service or age 60 whichever is first IIRC.

You received an Honorable discharge certificate upon separation from active duty if the characterization of your service is honorable. You were not officially discharged through until you served your 8 years in the Individual Ready Reserve/active or any combination of service. In other words, a 2 year enlistment gets you 6 years on the IRR. That is a generalization, I wasn't a clerk and the Army adjust's as it needs.

Nobody calls you up nor do you get a certificate at the official discharge date. In practical terms every considers themselves "discharged" when they get the little certificate that says "Discharged" and outprocess active service. Technically that is not correct.

A DD214 is my proof of service and the only real proof of service although some states lower the standard to just an ID card. You cannot get an ID card if you are separated without a DD214 to put you in DEERS.

Yes I interpreted California law to apply only to active duty, active reserve, or retired. Only a retired seperation code would qualify. They applied the same standard to Military personnel that they apply to LEO's. Neither is required to take any additional training to receive a Firearms Safety Certificate. Only Active LEO's and Military or retired LEO's/Military qualify.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Even the retired are discharged. There is a difference between discharge, seperation, and getting a piece of paper that says "discharge.

Thank you for making my point. A DD-214 is not evidence of "retired" status. Therefore, if the state's law says it grants an exemption to "retired" military, a DD-214 is not sufficient to document that one qualifies for the exemption.

 

[Sharkbite]

I could care less about the shooting aspect. CHL holders need to know the law, how its applied, and real world scenarios to avoid conflict and when its appropriate to use.

The issue as i see it is, a lot of people think a CCW class is the first (and sometimes ONLY) training they should take. A CCW class should not be your “intro to shooting” class.

 

[davidsog]

A DD-214 is not evidence of "retired" status

You do realize a DD214 is proof of retired status. It is THE legal proof of retired status.

WHAT IS A DD FORM 214? WHY DO I NEED ONE?
A DD Form 214 proves military service. Obtaining a copy is essential if you want access to many of the benefits and services available to you.

https://servingtogetherproject.org/...ate-of-release-or-discharge-from-active-duty/

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Let's go back to where we started this side excursion: In post #66 you wrote:

That is why you can use your DD214 and Military ID as proof of firearms training in most states that even require some proof of competency in firearms.

I questioned your statement that "most" states accept the DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training. You responded by posting a link to something that doesn't say that at all. In post #73, you wrote:

Only Florida expedites a CCW application with a DD214. Most states accept it in leu of firearms training.

The list of states you provided, which you say "all allow qualified veterans to either take fewer hours of required firearms training courses or skip them all together, depending on the state," includes 12 states. I checked the requirements for the first four states on your list, and it turns out that only one accepts the DD-214 across the board, one doesn't accept it at all, one accepts it as partial credit for the required 16 hours of training, and one accepts it only if it documents qualification with a handgun.

So you then changed the subject and brought California into the mix. And the California law specifically grants an exception to retired military personnel. Yes, a DD-214 will show retired status -- if you are retired. But not all holders of DD-214s are retired. Most are separated or discharged after terms of service that fall short of qualifying for retirement.

Bottom line: your statement that "most" states accept the DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training remains in question, and you have not offered anything definitive to support it.

 

[davidsog]

That is why you can use your DD214 and Military ID as proof of firearms training in most states that even require some proof of competency in firearms.

From what I have seen, Less than half the states in US even require some sort of training to receive either a CCL or permit to purchase.

There are 23 states listed on that website I posted in my first posting.

For instance:

Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico and Texas are all states that offer waived or discounted gun licensing fees to eligible veterans.
Colorado, Illinois, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Montana, New Mexico, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, West Virginia and Wisconsin all allow qualified veterans to either take fewer hours of required firearms training courses or skip them all together, depending on the state.
Maine, Missouri, Oklahoma, Tennessee and Texas have lowered the legal age for gun and/or concealed carry permits to 18 for qualified veterans only.
Florida is the only state so far that actually expedites the process of granting concealed carry permits to veterans.

Alabama - Shall issue state, no firearms training required.

Louisiana:

In addition to meeting the qualifications in R.S. 40:1379.3(C), an applicant must demonstrate competence with a handgun by completion of an approved firearms safety or training course taught by an NRA or P.O.S.T. certified instructor that is registered with State Police, or completion of small arms training while serving in the military (as evidenced by a DD-214), [active service members, reservist and national guard members must include a clear photocopy of their military ID (front & back) with a copy of their last qualification record from their 201 file], or possession of a current valid license to carry a concealed weapon issued by a parish law enforcement officer.

http://www.lsp.org/handguns.html#training

Mississippi has Constitutional Carry and does not require a CCL. However, they do issue an "Enhanced CCL" that allows carry in some prohibited areas and enjoys reciprocity with other states according the Mississippi.

That requires an 8 hour training in Firearms which is waived if you have DD214 and honorable discharge. The fee is waived if you are disabled veteran. It does not say what percentage only disabled and have a letter from the VA.

Allows Veterans to obtain the the enhanced carry permit; must present a DD214 with Honorable Discharge, “vet” on the Driver’s License or the MS Veterans Affairs Board Form with the red stamp used to get the “vet” designation on the driver’s license

https://www.driverservicebureau.dps...07/INDIVIDUAL COMBINED APP Revised 2-8-19.pdf

For New Mexico:

For a concealed handgun license applicant or licensee who submits with a concealed handgun license application documentation satisfactory to the department that the applicant is a military service person as defined in Subsection E of this section, an application fee or renewal fee is not required. For a military service person discharged from military service within twenty years of the application for a license or renewal of a license, a firearms training course or refresher firearms training course is not required

https://www.dps.nm.gov/templates/g5...icense/FILLABLE/NMAC CCW Booklet FILLABLE.pdf

Texas:

GC §411.1881. EXEMPTION FROM INSTRUCTION FOR CERTAIN PERSONS.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subchapter, a person may not
be required to complete the range instruction portion of a handgun proficiency course to obtain a license issued under this subchapter if the person:
(1) is currently serving in or is honorably discharged from:
(A) the army, navy, air force, coast guard, or marine corps of the United
States or an auxiliary service or reserve unit of one of those branches of the
armed forces; or
(B) the Texas military forces, as defined by Section 437.001; and
(2) has, within the 10 years preceding the date of the person’s application for
the license, completed as part of the person’s service with the armed forces or
Texas military forces:
(A) a course of training in firearm proficiency or familiarization; or
(B) a range qualification process for firearm usage

https://www.dps.texas.gov/InternetForms/Forms/LTC-16.pdf

That is just the states you are saying only waive the fees. They waive the training too.

 

[davidsog]

I questioned your statement that "most" states accept the DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training. You responded by posting a link to something that doesn't say that at all. In post #73, you wrote:

As I have time I will go thru the other states if you need me too.

 

[Sharkbite]

And.... so it devolves. Again

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As I have time I will go thru the other states if you need me too.

I don't need you to, but you need you to if you want your assertion to be believed. You made the statement that "most" states that require training accept the DD-214 as proof. Of course, we may differ as to what "most" means, but I don't accept your statement as correct. To me, "most" means significantly more than half. In other words, not a simple majority. I'd say 75% would be most, but I actually doubt you'll find even two-thirds.

For starters, I just fired up www.handgunlaw.us and started at the upper right corner of the map (Maine) and went down the eastern states.

Maine - accepts DD-214
New Hampshire - No training requirement
Vermont - No permits issued or required
Massachusetts - DD-214 not accepted
Connecticut - DD-214 not accepted
Rhode Island - DD-214 not accepted
New Jersey - DD-214 not accepted
New York - Varies by county, but does not appear that any accept DD-214
Pennsylvania - No training required
Delaware - DD-214 not accepted
Maryland - Accepts DD-214
Virginia - Accepts DD-214
West Virginia - Accepts DD-214 only if it documents handgun qualification
North Carolina - DD-214 not accepted
South Carolina - Accepts DD-214
Kentucky - DD-214 not accepted
Tennessee - Accepts DD-214 only if it documents handgun qualification
Georgia - No training requirement
Florida - Accepts DD-214

So, for this subset, out of 14 states with a training requirement, 8 don't accept the DD-214 at all, and two only accept it if it documents handgun training. That leaves four out of 14 that accept the DD-214 without restriction. That's not "most."

You can take it from there ...

 

[davidsog]

Literally the first one I checked.....

Kentucky - DD-214 not accepted

Kind of deceiving. A DD214 is not accepted because there is NO requirement of a CCL in the State.

AS OF JUNE 28, 2019,PURSUANT TO 2019 SENATE BILL 150, ANY PERSON AGE TWENTY-ONE (21) OR OLDER, AND OTHERWISE ABLE TO LAWFULLY POSSESS A FIREARM, MAY CARRY CONCEALED FIREARMS OR OTHER CONCEALED DEADLY WEAPONS WITHOUT A LICENSE IN THE SAME LOCATIONS AS PERSONS WITH VALID KENTUCKY CCDW LICENSE ISSUED UNDER KRS 237.110.

http://kentuckystatepolice.org/ccdw/ccdw-home/

You can take it from there ...
Yesterday 10:53 PM

I think you are more interested in winning than facts.

 

[davidsog]

And when Kentucky did have a CCL and training requirement...

An affidavit of Military Service stating you know which end of the handgun bullet goes out of is enough.

They do not even require you submit a DD214, LOL.

http://kentuckystatepolice.org/wp-c.../ksp_136_ccdw_military_training_affidavit.pdf

 

[davidsog]

While it is been interesting and I would enjoy pursuing nailing down a better picture, I think the topic warrants its own thread and stop hijacking this one.

 

[davidsog]

I called Tennessee at (615) 251-8590 as the State does not post their application forms. A DD214 reduces the fee to 68 bucks and waives the firearm training requirement. They want an affidavit or a copy of handgun qualification training too.

Might warrant its own thread.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Kind of deceiving. A DD214 is not accepted because there is NO requirement of a CCL in the State.

...

I think you are more interested in winning than facts.

I have no interest whatsoever in "winning." My interest is in trying to ensure that information being promulgated is accurate.

Whether or not a state requires a permit is irrelevent. Your statement was that of states that issue permits and require training, "most" accept a DD-214 as proof of firearms safety training. I don't dispute that some states accept the DD-214; I cited some two posts up. My problem is the contention that "most" accept the DD-214. I don't think that's a correct statement. As the person who made the statement, properly speaking it is your responsibility to document it now that the statement has been challenged.

Regarding Kentucky, I'm not sure what you just posted supports your contention. They do still issue permits, and the permit requires proof of training.

They do not even require you submit a DD214, LOL.

An affadavit of handgun training is not a DD-214. We're not talking about other documents; you specifically raised the DD-214 issue. An affadavit is a sworn statement, and submitting the affadavit requires the applicant to consent to the State verifying the training with the military. So if the applicant says he/she completed handgun training in the military and his/her military records don't confirm that, the applicant will be on the hook for perjury.

Your information on Tennessee does not support your contention that they accept the DD-214. By your own admission, "They want an affidavit or a copy of handgun qualification training too." Actually, it's not "too." They don't care about a DD-214 unless it shows handgun training.

https://www.tn.gov/content/tn/safety/handgunmain/hgqualifications.html

Qualifications

Qualifications That Must Be Met Before Applying for a Tennessee Handgun Carry Permit

• Effective July 1, 2005, all handgun permit applicants seeking a new permit must provide proof of U.S. Citizenship or Lawful Permanent Residency.

• Effective July 1, 2005, Tennessee handgun carry permit law will now allow certain applicants already exempt from complying with firing range provisions of the current statute to also be exempt from any classroom requirements. Those current exceptions are applicants who prove to the department that within five (5) years from the date of application for handgun permit, the applicant has:

1. Been certified by the police officer's standards and training commission, or
2. Successfully completed training at the law enforcement training academy; or
3. Successfully completed the firearms training course required for armed security guards; or
4. Successfully completed all handgun training of not less than four (4) hours as required by any branch of the military. (Effective 7/1/16 four hours of handgun training with any branch of the military could have occurred at any time and does not have to have been within five (5) years from the date of application for a handgun permit.
5. Successfully completed Tennessee department of correction firearms qualification. (Form CR-2938)

• Applicants are required to be a resident of the State of Tennessee;
• Be at least twenty-one (21) years of age or is at least eighteen (18) years of age and is an honorably discharged or retired veteran of the United States Armed Forces or is a member of the United States Armed Forces on active duty status and includes with the application a certified copy of the applicant’s certificate of release or discharge from active duty, DD214 or includes with the application a military identification card as proof that the applicant is an active duty member of the military.
  [So the DD-214 is for proof of veteran status for applicants under the age of 21.]
• Applicants shall not have been convicted of any felony offense punishable for a term exceeding one (1) year;
• Applicants shall not currently be under indictment or information for any criminal offense punishable by a term exceeding one (1) year;
• Shall not be currently the subject of any order of protection;
• Shall not be a fugitive from justice;
• Shall not be an unlawful user of or addicted to alcohol or any controlled substance and the applicant has not been a patient in a rehabilitation program or hospitalized for alcohol or controlled substance abuse or addiction within ten (10) years from the date of application;
• The applicant has not been convicted of the offense of driving under the influence of an intoxicant in this or any other State two (2) or more times within ten (10) years from the date of application and that none of such convictions has occurred within five (5) years from the date of application or renewal.
• Shall not have been adjudicated as mental defective; has not been committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution; has not had a court appoint a conservator for the applicant by reason of a mental defect; has not been judicially determined to be disabled by reason of a mental illness, development disability or other mental incapacity; and has not, within seven (7) years from the date of application, been found by a court to pose an immediate substantial likelihood of serious harm, as defined in Title 33, Chapter 6, Part 5, because of mental illness;
• Shall not be an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States;
• Shall not have been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions (dishonorable discharge, bad conduct discharge or a dismissal; Chapter 1340-2-4-.02 (5);
• Having been a citizen of the United States, applicants shall not have renounced their citizenship;
• Shall not have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence as defined in 18 U.S.C.A. 921 (33);
• Shall not be receiving social security disability benefits by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability;
• Shall not have been convicted of the offense of stalking;

So, for Tennessee, the DD-214 waives the training requirement only if it documents handgun training. I have corrected my post (above) to reflect that.

Carry on.

 

[vba]

I took my "class" back in 1981 in now liberal CT. It consisted of no classroom instruction just a 1/2 hour of shooting a .22LR Ruger Pistol and a few rounds of .38 special through a revolver.

I didn't require any classroom as I personally read everything I could find on gun safety and technique. The shooting was also easy for me even though I'd never fired a gun.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I took my "class" back in 1981 in now liberal CT. It consisted of no classroom instruction just a 1/2 hour of shooting a .22LR Ruger Pistol and a few rounds of .38 special through a revolver.

I didn't require any classroom as I personally read everything I could find on gun safety and technique. The shooting was also easy for me even though I'd never fired a gun.

Here's a good example of how CCW classes have changed. Connecticut now requires the NRA Basic Pistol class, or other curriculum approved by the State Police. The NRA Basic Pistol class is an all-day class.

You are required to complete a handgun safety course, which must consist of no less than the NRA's "Basic Pistol Course," prior to submitting the application. The NRA's "Home Firearms Safety Course" and "First Steps Pistol Orientation Program" are not approved courses.

Live fire is also required. Computer-generated programs, dry-fire, other simulated shooting tools, plastic bullets, air guns or any other alternatives are not acceptable. Students must fire a semi-automatic pistol or revolver. Any questions should be referred to the Special Licensing and Firearms Unit.

Source: https://portal.ct.gov/DESPP/Divisio...and-Firearms/State-Pistol-Permit#instructions

The State Police web site says that live fire is required, but the statute doesn't mention live fire. However, the current NRA Basic Pistol class requires live fire and I think the minimum number of rounds to satisfy the course requirements is about 75 rounds. The CT State Police obviously can include live fire as a requisite part of any other class or course they approve.

 

[davidsog]

An affadavit of handgun training is not a DD-214.

I think the instructions are very clear.

Honorable Discharge and the affidavit. Proof of an Honorable is a DD214 but the state does not even require you submit that. Just the signed letter affirming you have served.

It is a much lower standard than requiring a copy of the DD214 but somehow that does not count to you.

Regarding Kentucky, I'm not sure what you just posted supports your contention. They do still issue permits, and the permit requires proof of training.

LOL, the affidavit is from Kentucky...That is the big Kentucky State Police Seal at the top of letterhead. Training requirement is clearly waived with Military Service.

Of course you are not concerned with winning...only accuracy!!

Your information on Tennessee does not support your contention that they accept the DD-214.

It certainly does. Training is waived with Military experience just like Kentucky.

They told me to fill this out and send it in:

https://www.globalsecurity.org/jhtm...rary/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/daform88-r.pdf|||

That is patently ridiculous but what the State of Tennessee wants a DA Form 88R because of attorneys. That form is a local S3 record and ends up in trash not any permanent record.

It is a simple matter of States not understanding the Military or how it works. They have some "expert" who runs his mouth thinking he knows everything.

I asked if SFARTEC counted she said No, it did not count. They needed handgun training so just sent in a copy of my DA Form 88R.

A minimum score of expert with both pistol and rifle is a prerequisite for SFARTEC as you will fire live ammunition within 1 meter of your fellow soldiers as they moving about in the room. You have to be accurate or people will get hurt.

https://www.americanspecialops.com/photos/special-forces/SFARTAETC.php

I have no interest whatsoever in "winning." My interest is in trying to ensure that information being promulgated is accurate.

Yeah...OK.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

It is a much lower standard than requiring a copy of the DD214 but somehow that does not count to you.

Higher/lower/not in the same universe. It doesn't matter if it's a lower standard. Your statement was that the DD-214 is proof of firearms training in "most" states that require training to issue a permit. An affidavit is NOT a DD-214. The affidavit certifies to handgun training. A DD-214 that shows only rifle qualification would not be sufficient. And I think you wrote that the current DD-214s don't show any weapons qualification, so states that specifically require proof of handgun safety training won't accept a DD-214.

Regarding Kentucky, I'm not sure what you just posted supports your contention. They do still issue permits, and the permit requires proof of training.

LOL, the affidavit is from Kentucky...That is the big Kentucky State Police Seal at the top of letterhead. Training requirement is clearly waived with Military Service.

There you go, moving the goalposts again.

Your statement was that the DD-214 is accepted by "most" states. Not "military service," not "affidavit on our form" -- you wrote "DD214." Regardless of whose letterhead it's on, an affidavit is clearly not a DD-214. And the training is not waived for all military service. It's only waived with proof (or an affidavit) of handgun training in the military.

It's impossible to discuss anything with you, because you continually change the parameters.

 

[davidsog]

Your statement was that the DD-214 is accepted by "most" states. Not "military service,"

It is not moving the goal post. It is not my fault you do not seem to understand that a DD214 IS the proof of Military Service.

If a state only requires proof of Military service....then it is a DD214. The fact you keep wordsmithing simply because "DD214" is not in the language of a specific state does not change the fact that form is THE proof of service.

PROOF OF MILITARY SERVICE (DD 214)

https://servingtogetherproject.org/...ate-of-release-or-discharge-from-active-duty/