CCW Class...How They Have Changed.

TailGator said:
My wife and daughter took a class for their licenses more recently, maybe five years ago. They said it was all classroom teaching on related laws, followed by firing a .22 that the instructor brought. They didn't even have an opportunity to fire their own firearms.
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The NRA Basic Pistol (which my state stipulates as the required class for a carry permit) is an all-day course. It includes basics of firearms safety, an explanation of different types of handgun actions (semi-auto vs. revolver, single action vs. double action), loading and unloading, how to use the sights, and a live fire component. It does NOT include anything about laws.

The NRA classes bring in laws when they get to the Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home courses. But the NRA stipulates that if the instructor is not an attorney licensed in that state, they must bring in an attorney licensed in the jurisdiction to teach the laws module.

I have never heard of a class where students were allowed to use their own guns. I don't even want to think about the potential liability implications. The instructor has no way of knowing if the student's gun is safe, or if the student's ammo is safe.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
The NRA Basic Pistol (which my state stipulates as the required class for a carry permit) is an all-day course. It includes basics of firearms safety, an explanation of different types of handgun actions (semi-auto vs. revolver, single action vs. double action), loading and unloading, how to use the sights, and a live fire component. It does NOT include anything about laws.



The NRA classes bring in laws when they get to the Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home courses. But the NRA stipulates that if the instructor is not an attorney licensed in that state, they must bring in an attorney licensed in the jurisdiction to teach the laws module.



I have never heard of a class where students were allowed to use their own guns. I don't even want to think about the potential liability implications. The instructor has no way of knowing if the student's gun is safe, or if the student's ammo is safe.
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At my Basic Pistol course, many years ago, I was allowed to use my own pistol with my own ammo. To be honest though, I agree with your concerns.

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Aguila Blanca said:
The NRA Basic Pistol (which my state stipulates as the required class for a carry permit) is an all-day course. It includes basics of firearms safety, an explanation of different types of handgun actions (semi-auto vs. revolver, single action vs. double action), loading and unloading, how to use the sights, and a live fire component. It does NOT include anything about laws.

The NRA classes bring in laws when they get to the Personal Protection in the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home courses. But the NRA stipulates that if the instructor is not an attorney licensed in that state, they must bring in an attorney licensed in the jurisdiction to teach the laws module.

I have never heard of a class where students were allowed to use their own guns. I don't even want to think about the potential liability implications. The instructor has no way of knowing if the student's gun is safe, or if the student's ammo is safe.
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You've never heard of a class where the students use their own firearms? I have never taken a class where I used an instructor's firearms. Thats definitely not the practice for CHL classes in Texas.

Maybe thats a mistype in your post.
 
I've never heard of a course where bringing your own firearm was not a requirement, though most instructors/schools do offer rentals at additional expense.

Most classes allow reloads, but I've seen some that require factory ammo. A few classes have special ammo requirements such as lead-free, or reduced-hazard frangible bullets due to the requirements of the shooting range or the distance to steel targets or concrete walls inside a shoot house. However, I've never seen one of these requirements exclude reloaded ammo that meets the specifications.
 
zincwarrior said:
You've never heard of a class where the students use their own firearms? I have never taken a class where I used an instructor's firearms. Thats definitely not the practice for CHL classes in Texas.

Maybe thats a mistype in your post.
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No, not a mistype. All CCW classes around here use only the firearm provided by the instructor.

Why would you assume that because my experience -- in a different part of the country -- is different from yours, I must be mistaken?
 
labnoti said:
I've never heard of a course where bringing your own firearm was not a requirement, though most instructors/schools do offer rentals at additional expense.
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For a basic CCW class? Certainly, advanced classes are based on the students providing their own firearms and their own ammo. As an instructor, I would not be at all comfortable, from a liability perspective, with allowing students at an introductory CCW class to bring their own gun and ammo.
 
Original AZ CC course was 16 hrs, heavy on law, and you had to pass written test. Firearm familiarization and qualification was easy. Now there is no requirement other than form, fingerprints, and $$...renewal is form and $$.

CC is less about what firearm in what holster is carried where on your person than it is about how and when that firearm can be used to protect yourself or others.

It is the responsibility of the CC permitee to know the law governing the use of deadly force. In some jurisdictions, a CC permit may not be required to carry. The carrier can research and read the laws, but how many really do? I believe most acquire the firearm and follow general ‘feel good’ knowledge learned from others or some online website posted by others with no legal training. Big changes to law may even be covered by local media, but there may be changes that don’t see public light, especially if local media is biased in their reporting.

I see the CCW requirement as the requirement to provide, at least, the minimum legal requirement as to when and where deadly force can be used, and the consequences of doing so. CCW renewal provides a refresher and information about any changes to legal requirements.

One of the hardest parts of CCW is finding a reliable, reputable source of that instruction.
 
That's why. Not intended to be impolite but, what? Absent some specialized class like a F on F class using sims or airsoft, I've not seen this and don't understand the liability argument. You are making yourself liable by supplying your own firearms.
 
pwc said:
Original AZ CC course was 16 hrs, heavy on law, and you had to pass written test. Firearm familiarization and qualification was easy. Now there is no requirement other than form, fingerprints, and $$...renewal is form and $$.

CC is less about what firearm in what holster is carried where on your person than it is about how and when that firearm can be used to protect yourself or others.

It is the responsibility of the CC permitee to know the law governing the use of deadly force. In some jurisdictions, a CC permit may not be required to carry. The carrier can research and read the laws, but how many really do? I believe most acquire the firearm and follow general ‘feel good’ knowledge learned from others or some online website posted by others with no legal training. Big changes to law may even be covered by local media, but there may be changes that don’t see public light, especially if local media is biased in their reporting.

I see the CCW requirement as the requirement to provide, at least, the minimum legal requirement as to when and where deadly force can be used, and the consequences of doing so. CCW renewal provides a refresher and information about any changes to legal requirements.

One of the hardest parts of CCW is finding a reliable, reputable source of that instruction.
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Indeed. Even if not a requirement, I would seek this out before carrying.
 
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Yes. Your own gun for a CCW class. This is the case for my state and all the surrounding states (western US).

There were in the recent (few years ago) past at least one state that required you to use the type of gun you would carry and you could only carry the type of gun you tested on. But that was done away with.

My answer about ammo applies to all classes. Reloads are allowed in CCW classes. When I mentioned special ammo requirements for shoot houses and such, I was talking about classes other than CCW. My point was that virtually all the schools and classes I know of allow totally unknown personal reloads.

I've never heard of a class that required school guns or school ammo -- but I'm not disputing that it could exist somewhere.
 
I used to assist with a CCW class. I would explain to the people how a criminal thinks and how he attacks. One thing I conveyed was about the rapist whom many times I heard them say, " My only mistake was I let that b*tch live."

I would go into keeping out of his line of attack, line of power, by using obstructions and basically moving your ASSets. Then to use strikes to redirect or distract while drawing the firearm. Then I would encourage them to seek a more advanced class. One that includes both physical defence and firearms.

The instructor told me that what I taught was too much. He even said I scared people. He told me that was more for an advanced class and if he had one we would use that.

Better then to use time to espouse the superiority of a Glock. Also to impress the class with how many concealed weapons he can carry. Better do do that and teach people to be flat footed and stupid.

He said he might start an advanced class. The problem with that is that he has never been in a self defense situation, he has no direct experience. He has no idea how these people think and how they actually act. I have bunches of direct experience on both.
 
I can't find any states where it is a requirement that the CCW classes provide firearms to students. If there are areas where that is popular, that would be on the instructors and/or ranges. It would seem silly to make students take a class with a gun that they weren't going to be carrying.

There were in the recent (few years ago) past at least one state that required you to use the type of gun you would carry and you could only carry the type of gun you tested on. But that was done away with.
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Nevada?
 
After I retire maybe. The difference in what I would teach against what others I've seen would be, " How not to be a cowboy" and, "Be a coward because cowards survive." All that not focused on defeating the threat but disengaging from it as soon as possible. A good number I've watched focused on overpowering the threat.
 
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zincwarrior said:
That's why. Not intended to be impolite but, what? Absent some specialized class like a F on F class using sims or airsoft, I've not seen this and don't understand the liability argument. You are making yourself liable by supplying your own firearms.
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I disagree.

We carry instructor insurance. My firearms and my ammunition are elements that I can control, and that are covered under my insurance. I know that my guns are unmodified and properly maintained. I know that the ammunition I provide is standard-power, commercially loaded ammunition. I have no way to control either if I allow students to provide their own firearms and/or their own ammunition.

Then there's the issue of controlling the loading of the firearms. If there is only one gun per instructor, and that gun is on the bench at the firing station, there is no worry that some doofus (and there's one in just about every class) will decide that he knows better than the instructor and that it's a good idea to load his or her firearm behind the line, when there's no instructor watching.

It's the same problem we have in the classroom. The rule is no ammunition in the classroom, but there's often "that guy" who has a 9mm round in his pocket, and when a classroom prop gun is passed around he (or she, but it's invariably a he) just has to see if that round will chamber in the gun. That's why in the classroom I use blue guns, and as many non-firing or blank firing replicas as possible rather than real firearms.

For the discussion of different action types, I wanted to include top break revolvers. There are a few non-firing or blank-firing replicas of the S&W top-break cowboy revolvers, but a new replica costs more than an actual firearm. So for $25 I bought a very abused old Brand X top break pocket revolver in .32 Short. The likelihood that "that guy" will happen to have a .32 Short cartridge in his pocket is very close to zero but, even so, I filed down the firing pin so it can't fire even if loaded. For demo purposes, I bought a dozen .32 Short dummy rounds.

The CCW classes are not to be compared with more advanced classes. A large percentage of the people attending a CCW class have never held or fired a gun before. Most have never taken any sort of firearms safety class before. Some actually want to learn, but the majority are taking the class only because the state says they must take it in order to get a permit. They aren't interested in learning any more than the bare minimum required to get the class completion certificate.

That's why I think there's a huge liability risk in allowing students to provide their own firearms and/or their own ammunition.
 
armednfree said:
I used to assist with a CCW class. I would explain to the people how a criminal thinks and how he attacks. One thing I conveyed was about the rapist whom many times I heard them say, " My only mistake was I let that b*tch live."

I would go into keeping out of his line of attack, line of power, by using obstructions and basically moving your ASSets. Then to use strikes to redirect or distract while drawing the firearm. Then I would encourage them to seek a more advanced class. One that includes both physical defence and firearms.

The instructor told me that what I taught was too much. He even said I scared people. He told me that was more for an advanced class and if he had one we would use that.
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The instructor is correct. That doesn't belong in a basic CCW class.
 
I still do the AOJP part. I am far more versed in it than he is. I also teach women occasionally, 1 or 2 at a time. I need better equipment for that really. But doing that for free, ain't got the money to spend on an good airsoft.
 
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In teaching women do you find them more receptive to instruction? I've seen other instructors say as much. A friend and I tried to teach his then fiance, however, and she was very stubborn.

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I used to coach junior smallbore and girls were much easier to coach; the boys had watched too many John Wayne movies and had too many things to unlearn. The girls progressed thru sharpshooter, marksman, pro-marksman, eventually expert. That's all assuming the girls wanted to shoot more than smile at the boys, in which case both their scores went to hell.
 
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