CC, how many spare magazines do you carry?

[AK103K]

As a CCW or gun owner i think we should stop fantasizing about having shootouts/firefights and think more of self defense.

I think a lot of the fantasy, is the illusion some seem to have, that self defense is defensive in nature.

If I need to defend myself, its going to be pure aggression towards the threat, until its solved or Im dead. Thats still self defense, just the full force of it being used.

Where this stuff about running away (preemptive situational awareness aside), and some silly made up SD "rules and regs" that people seem to think are in force, is really a wonderment. If you feel your life is in danger and is in motion, and need to protect yourself, do so, and as forcefully and violently as you possibly can. What are you expecting to happen if you dont? They will quiver in fear because you produce a gun? I do think there is a lot of fantasy going on, and its not by those who are realistic about their security, and who prepare in that direction.

If bullets are coming your way, it doesn't matter if you are a civilian or a police officer. If you run out of ammo it doesn't matter if you are a civilian or police officer.

Exactly.

Proper shot placement of a deep-penetrating bullet is the only thing you can actually count on. You may get lucky and your attacker will choose to stop, but if not — you may have to force them to stop. And that may take a lot of bullets, so…Shoot until the threat stops

This seems to be lost on many.

The drill is "shoot them to the ground", caliber (assuming one of the realistic "people" calibers) is irrelevant. Why would you stop shooting, if the target is still standing and a threat?

 

[Joespapa]

The majority of SD situations when a FA is shown (by the good guy), get resolved w/o a shot. However, if you pull it, better be prepared to use it. Most bad guys look for easy targets and would rather run than fight. (Learning Point Here.....LET THEM RUN! Don't try to be a cop, you achieved your SD objective if they run). Even when shots are fired, I am not aware of any normal SD situation ever involving a protracted gun fight and reloading. Never forget that you own every shot no matter where it goes so be accurate. Objective of having a gun for SD is to stay alive if all else fails, not to go toe-to-toe in a gunfight. My advice is not to worry about extra mags, use your smarts to think of ways to avoid needing to pull a FA. Learn to hit your target accurately with what you carry in your FA. Of course, if you are in LE or actively hunting out bad guys with guns, my advice is different.

Good advice!

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Normal SD - that's the crux of the matter. Some of us are not postulating an untrained and panic spray and pray at the single mugger.

But there is a small and real possibility that one faces an extreme critical incident. There may be an intensive attack on a soft target. While, I'm not suggesting you go commando - if you are involved, you might want a reload.

Also, once again - with semis - some jams are handled by dropping the mag. If it never happened to you - you don't shoot enough.

 

[Moomooboo]

How hard is it to drop the mag and reload it

 

[jrobin3360]

How hard is it to drop the mag and reload it

Well.....push the mag release button, empty mag falls from gun. Insert loaded mag.

Unless you're asking how hard is it to reload the mag itself....and under fire.

I don't believe anyone would be carrying lose rounds in their pockets.

 

[Sharkbite]

I think the above statement is about using a second mag to assist in clearing a feed way stopage (failure to extract)

In that case, the mag in the gun is unlikely to fall free. Some guns will allow you to rip that mag out others will require you to lock the slide open first.

Being able to excute this stopage clearence quickly and reflexively takes some practice.

 

[Moomooboo]

I think the above statement is about using a second mag to assist in clearing a feed way stopage (failure to extract)

In that case, the mag in the gun is unlikely to fall free. Some guns will allow you to rip that mag out others will require you to lock the slide open first.

Being able to excute this stopage clearence quickly and reflexively takes some practice.

Well. I guess i just need more clarification on what this extra mag that people are saying would come in handy for would be. If its your case, well i cant comment on it as ive never had the mag not release free fall. So the viewpoint im coming from, is that if the gun jams, its too easy to drop the mag and pull back the charging handle to clear( or the equivalent for a semi) then reinsert same mag and rechamber another round. Obviously the order and steps might differ depending on what the malfunction is.

I was just assuming when people stated theyd be using an xtra mag, it would be for any malfunction which i didnt think necessary. So i dont think im on the same page as some of you.

 

[Moomooboo]

Well.....push the mag release button, empty mag falls from gun. Insert loaded mag.

Unless you're asking how hard is it to reload the mag itself....and under fire.

I don't believe anyone would be carrying lose rounds in their pockets.

My statement was really a sarcastic one toward glen. Possibly out of ignorance as ive never had to clear jams with dropping the mag and inserting another different one. Please glen dont tell me its because i havent shot enough. I just havent ever had that problem which i can recall.

 

[pax]

Moomooboo,

People who have never had to clear a doublefeed haven't shot much. It's not a common problem, but it is not uncommon, either. Send enough rounds downrange, and it'll happen.

People who have never learned to clear a doublefeed are not well trained as shooters, no matter how many years they've owned guns.

Neither of these statements are insults, unless the person reading this chooses to make them so. They're simply a statement of fact: people who have shot a bunch have almost all needed to clear a doublefeed at some point in time. And learning to clear malfunctions is a very foundational building block to becoming a well trained shooter.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/running-the-gun/clear-a-doublefeed/

pax

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by AK103:

I think a lot of the fantasy, is the illusion some seem to have, that self defense is defensive in nature.

Self defense is defensive in nature, by definition.

A citizen will (if the evidence supports his or her beliefs) be excused for harming someone else if and only if he or she had reason to believe that he or she had no other choice to defend himself or herself from an imminent threat of harm.

That means harm that would occur right then--not harm that might happen later if the other person is not dispensed with.

That's what makes it defensive.

Where this stuff about running away (preemptive situational awareness aside), and some silly made up SD "rules and regs" that people seem to think are in force, is really a wonderment.

It's not at all clear what you are getting at.

If you are speaking of a duty to retreat, that's not among "silly made up 'rules and regs' that people seem to think are in force". It is the law in many places, and it has been for many centuries. The duty has been eliminated in many places, but it may still be a good idea to retreat if you can safely do so, practically, tactically, and legally.

If you are speaking about avoidance and evasion, your attempt to do so may determine the facts regarding necessity, which is a fundamental requirement of justification.

And you really, really want witness accounts and video to indicate that you were moving away from a confrontation rather than toward it.

If you feel your life is in danger and is in motion, and need to protect yourself, do so, and as forcefully and violently as you possibly can.

What you "feel" may not count very much; base your actions upon what you have reason to believe.

And should "as forcefully and violently as you possibly can" seem to significantly exceed what you reasonably believed to be necessary, you would be in a world of hurt.

 

[Skans]

To the OP's question: One in the gun. That's it.

Why no more than this? I'm lazy. I don't particularly like carrying a gun - it's about as much fun as carrying a cell phone, which I don't like carrying either. While I do love guns, I like to travel light.

Once I'm loaded down with keys (too many), wallet (which is overstuffed already), gun and holster, and sometimes a cell phone (too big), WHERE THE HECK AM I SUPPOSED TO PUT THE EXTRA MAGAZINE???

 

[TimSr]

A good example: every passenger seat in every airplane that plies the skies within continents contains a flotation device. Why? Risk analysis based on simulation. There have been far, far too few actual accident and casualty data upon which to base that decision.

Great example I can agree with you on. How many lives have been saved with flotation seating? Why install them? Because it makes passengers feel better as it alleviates a problem in a fantasy scenario in their minds, that is highly unlikely to ever occur in real life.

I'm not even looking for a compilation of any data. I'm just asking for one or two anecdotes of a civilian successfully reloading in a defense situation and potentially changing the outcome.

Carry what you think you'll need to feel secure. I'm a logical and mathematical guy evaluates risk on probabilities, and of faith to believe that when one in a million things do happen, it was not because I wasn't prepared, but because it was meant to happen for a reason beyond my understanding. I don't begrudge anyone else's need to carry more, but I'm fine with mine.

 

[OldMarksman]

Posted by TimSr:

How many lives have been saved with flotation seating?

I do not know.

Why install them? Because it makes passengers feel better as it alleviates a problem in a fantasy scenario in their minds, that is highly unlikely to ever occur in real life.

Nope. Where did you get that idea?

The reasons are twofold: (1) if an airplane comes down in one piece, the likelihood that it will do so in water is sufficiently high to make mitigation with considering; and (2) the cost go removable flotation seat cushions, including the cost of additional fuel necessitated by the additional weight, is considered low enough by those who understand risk management to make it worthwhile.

Understand?

Do they make you feel safer in a "fantasy scenario" in your mind?

I'm not even looking for a compilation of any data. I'm just asking for one or two anecdotes of a civilian successfully reloading in a defense situation and potentially changing the outcome.

Well, if you come upon even one, either (1) the persons involved have bee extremely unwise in discussing it; or (2) the shooter has (a) been tried and acquitted or pardoned, and (b) civil suits from all possible litigants have been filed and dismissed with prejudice.

Do you understand the situation in which you are requesting the information?

I'm a logical and mathematical guy evaluates risk on probabilities...

You have not impressed me as one.

Either you do not fully comprehend the proper use of conditional vs cumulative probabilities in risk assessment and in the evaluation of mitigation strategies, or you do not really appreciate the risk of a firearm malfunctioning in a manner that would best be remedied by dropping the magazine.

 

[pax]

According to the NTSB, 95% of people involved in plane crashes survive. When we limit the statistics to the most serious and deadly crashes, that number drops to 76 %.

That being the case, it is completely reasonable to have a contingency to continue surviving after hitting the water. Assuming you do get out of the plane, you will want to continue breathing. And the best place to do that would be above water.

pax

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

On a techy nolte:

You can remove the mag usually in Glock during a double feed by removing it. On a 1911, you need to lock back the slide and remove the mag.

I have had both malfunctions during matches and classes. Removing the mag allows rounds or casings that don't make it out of the ejection port, to drop down out of the gun.

An advanced class will set up such instances so you can practice. If one goes to enough training and matches, you see many malfunctions across the spectrum of semis. Revolver malfunctions are not unknown.

I had one Glock malfunction in about 150 rounds this past weekend, I barely paused in clearing the gun and continuing the run.

With thousands of rounds through Glocks, the weirdest one was an empty casing rotating 180 deg, jamming into the breach face, the next round entering the open mouth and slide crushing them together. One in a zillion. That was a definite rip out the mag clearance. Having shot Glocks since 1994 - it happened once. Am I glad that I know how to clear such - yep.

 

[1-DAB]

pocket, magazine carrier. two places to store a spare, loaded magazine.

you think one magazine of ammo is sufficient? fine. your life, your call. i carry a spare. not that heavy, nor bulky. no bigger than an average Leatherman tool (also very useful).

 

[Sharkbite]

You can remove the mag usually in Glock during a double feed by removing it. On a 1911, you need to lock back the slide and remove the mag.

Seems about equally divided, which guns you can just rip the mag out and ones you must lock the slide on. 1911, S&W early 59-459, BHP. all need locked. Others, like HK USP have a cut away in the magwell to allow an easier grip to strip the mag out

Bottom line....know your gun and be prepaired to clear malfunctions. This includes having another mag, to get back to the OP's question

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Carrying an extra mag. If I have a cover garment, it's no problem to have a one mag pouch on the other side.

Some pants have neat little pockets for an extra mag. Problem is that they usually have left side pockets and I'm left handed. Cargo pants handle that. Sport jackets- plenty of pockets.

 

[Moomooboo]

On a techy nolte:

You can remove the mag usually in Glock during a double feed by removing it. On a 1911, you need to lock back the slide and remove the mag.

I have had both malfunctions during matches and classes. Removing the mag allows rounds or casings that don't make it out of the ejection port, to drop down out of the gun.

An advanced class will set up such instances so you can practice. If one goes to enough training and matches, you see many malfunctions across the spectrum of semis. Revolver malfunctions are not unknown.

I had one Glock malfunction in about 150 rounds this past weekend, I barely paused in clearing the gun and continuing the run.

With thousands of rounds through Glocks, the weirdest one was an empty casing rotating 180 deg, jamming into the breach face, the next round entering the open mouth and slide crushing them together. One in a zillion. That was a definite rip out the mag clearance. Having shot Glocks since 1994 - it happened once. Am I glad that I know how to clear such - yep.

So do you actually need an extra mag to clear a double feed or can you reinsert the same mag

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

If one rips out the mag, one usually drops it. You need both hands to manipulate the gun. You can stow it in a variant of a reload with retention, but that slows the process. Best to ditch it and then reload with your spare.

This is an emergency reload so speed is of the essence. If you survive you can pick up the dropped mag.

That's why matches and training are so important. You need to know what to do when the Black Swan craps on your head.