CC, how many spare magazines do you carry?
- Thread starter Kimio
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Possibly true. But it could also be a possibility that there only have been .001 cases where a reload was required. And ill take my chances on that. I feel like if an extra mag was required it would make big news throughout these forums.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by TimSr:
One would be hard pressed to show you any:
Personal stories on the Internet? Don't look for them. Anyone who has ever fired a gun at anyone has been responsibly advised to say nothing about it.
No, a prudent person would not base a decision of that kind upon the absence of data.
One can look at how often semi-autos jam; the are thousands of days of training sessions very year, and one can participate in or observe a few. Frankly, my observations have been alarming. Do not look for comprehensive data.
One can look at the best way to address jams very quickly.
One can train to do so.
One can observe how quickly a practiced individual can clear a malfunction without looking at his gun.
And then one can make an informed decision.
There is a reason why most of the more experienced members here and on other boards, many of whom are trainers, do make it a practice to carry extra magazines.
All the cases? Really? How would anyone ever do that?
One would be hard pressed to show you any:
- One would start with incidents in which civilians have fired firearms at others; lawful uses are actuallly rather infrequent
- One would then have to look at the subset in which the defender did reload; probably a small number
- Then one would have to look at the incidents about which that fact is known; such details are very seldom recorded, unless there is an indictment
- Then one would have to obtain a compendium of such cases; they do not exist
Personal stories on the Internet? Don't look for them. Anyone who has ever fired a gun at anyone has been responsibly advised to say nothing about it.
No, a prudent person would not base a decision of that kind upon the absence of data.
One can look at how often semi-autos jam; the are thousands of days of training sessions very year, and one can participate in or observe a few. Frankly, my observations have been alarming. Do not look for comprehensive data.
One can look at the best way to address jams very quickly.
One can train to do so.
One can observe how quickly a practiced individual can clear a malfunction without looking at his gun.
And then one can make an informed decision.
There is a reason why most of the more experienced members here and on other boards, many of whom are trainers, do make it a practice to carry extra magazines.
Youre not. Its when those who are adamant about carrying a spare and aaying others who dont, dont have common sense and are stupid. That is when one affects others.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The issue is when someone says they don't carry a spare because of the average gun fight is X rounds or they don't go into bad areas.
Both of those have little logic behind them when you look at reasonable risk management for the 'what can go wrong with a significant but perhaps small probabllity).
Then folks start to argue. The real answer is that carry extra is a modest pain but not that much. Do what you want as you take the risk.
Both of those have little logic behind them when you look at reasonable risk management for the 'what can go wrong with a significant but perhaps small probabllity).
Then folks start to argue. The real answer is that carry extra is a modest pain but not that much. Do what you want as you take the risk.
zincwarrior
New member
One spare mag for 30 rounds in total. Like my driving, anyone who has more is crazy, and anyone who has less is an idiot. 
This. I find my belt is much more balanced and worth the extra weight.
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zincwarrior
New member
Thread win.
No matter what you say there are those who will always respond that you are wrong because you are not prepared enough because you must prepare for the worst possible scenario "just in case". Kind of like criticizing the President and getting the stock answer "your just prejudice" when logical arguments fail.
There are some very peculiar individuals on this forum that think they need to prepare for "the attack" at any moment "just in case". I have read where people (non LE) have 2 or 3 guns on their person, guns in their toilets, showers, couch cushions, 4th point of contact (just kidding on this one) and extra ammo for each "just in case". Actually kind of sad someone is that scared.
Well, if that is what it takes to calm their delusions, God bless them....carry your arsenal. However, when it comes to taking tactical advice off the internet...take that with a grain of salt! Not everyone is....well, lets just call it "extreme" as some on this site. Take a class or ask some individuals you can verify are actually professionals.
Lastly, all the chatter about justifying extra mags in the event you must "dump" to clear jams is just poor tactics. Almost any jam can be cleared quickly without giving up a mag by dumping it on the ground. Also, comparing LE scenarios where cops intentionally go into harms way is sooooo different than SD situations....but that just my 29 years of LE experience, what do I know.
There are some very peculiar individuals on this forum that think they need to prepare for "the attack" at any moment "just in case". I have read where people (non LE) have 2 or 3 guns on their person, guns in their toilets, showers, couch cushions, 4th point of contact (just kidding on this one) and extra ammo for each "just in case". Actually kind of sad someone is that scared.
Well, if that is what it takes to calm their delusions, God bless them....carry your arsenal. However, when it comes to taking tactical advice off the internet...take that with a grain of salt! Not everyone is....well, lets just call it "extreme" as some on this site. Take a class or ask some individuals you can verify are actually professionals.
Lastly, all the chatter about justifying extra mags in the event you must "dump" to clear jams is just poor tactics. Almost any jam can be cleared quickly without giving up a mag by dumping it on the ground. Also, comparing LE scenarios where cops intentionally go into harms way is sooooo different than SD situations....but that just my 29 years of LE experience, what do I know.
Can you expand on your little logic argument? I feel like using statistics is a logical way. I mean lets say in 100 years no one has needed more than the ammo in their gun, is it feasible to say that we will be mostly fine? Id think so.
The almost nonexistent probabilitythat one will encounter SD situation compounded by a jam that requires another mag is so miniscule yet it is one of the biggest factors we worry about.
Im not saying one should not carry as it is ones choice, but i just want to see why you think there is no logic? Anything can happen, but my car isnt one which can transform into a helicopter in the event of a flood either which is a significant but small probability.
Manta49--the reasons cops carry extra guns and ammo is because they actively engage in seeking out gunfire and bad guys on or off duty. Also, those you arrest tend to remember you which is a different kind of SD situation unique to cops requiring a heightened level of preparedness. Most bad guys do not actively seek out normal civilians to kill unlike the risk of being a cop.
If you are in the gun fighting business you better come prepared with as much as you can bring for ammo, guns etc. If you are a civilian concerned only with SD you get the option to run away. As such, comparing the need of civilian SD situations and the need for extra magazines stuffed in every orifice because cops do, is no comparison at all.
As I said before, there is no arguing with the "just in case" response.
If you are in the gun fighting business you better come prepared with as much as you can bring for ammo, guns etc. If you are a civilian concerned only with SD you get the option to run away. As such, comparing the need of civilian SD situations and the need for extra magazines stuffed in every orifice because cops do, is no comparison at all.
As I said before, there is no arguing with the "just in case" response.
OldMarksman
Staff
Posted by Moomooboo:
The probability that one will be faced by a violent critical actor on any particular day is far less than remote. The probability that that risk will ever materialize is much higher, but still rather low.
Because the potential consequences are so severe, and because so little is involved in mitigating the risk, many of us do mitigate it. The most effective way to do that, for people who are trained and proficient in its use, is to carry a firearm. Many of us do that.
The next issue entails the risk that said firearm may fail in the unlikely event that it is needed. One properly looks at the marginal probability, and not the cumulative probability.
The shooting of guns in nonviolent situations demonstrates that that likelihood is higher than most of us would like.
That risk, too, requires little to mitigate. One effective way to do that, again for people who are trained and proficient, is to carry a spare magazine. Many trained and knowledgeable people do that.
Another way to mitigate that risk is to carry a back-up gun. That is likely more effective, and it provides several additional advantages. Some people do that.
I do not know of many knowledgeable, trained people who understand much at all about risk management who will discount that risk heavily, if they have already decided to carry a gun.
That is not the way people who understand the basic tenets of risk management look at it.
The probability that one will be faced by a violent critical actor on any particular day is far less than remote. The probability that that risk will ever materialize is much higher, but still rather low.
Because the potential consequences are so severe, and because so little is involved in mitigating the risk, many of us do mitigate it. The most effective way to do that, for people who are trained and proficient in its use, is to carry a firearm. Many of us do that.
The next issue entails the risk that said firearm may fail in the unlikely event that it is needed. One properly looks at the marginal probability, and not the cumulative probability.
The shooting of guns in nonviolent situations demonstrates that that likelihood is higher than most of us would like.
That risk, too, requires little to mitigate. One effective way to do that, again for people who are trained and proficient, is to carry a spare magazine. Many trained and knowledgeable people do that.
Another way to mitigate that risk is to carry a back-up gun. That is likely more effective, and it provides several additional advantages. Some people do that.
I do not know of many knowledgeable, trained people who understand much at all about risk management who will discount that risk heavily, if they have already decided to carry a gun.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Good post OldM.
I would like to add about jams that it is very common to get a jam that necessitates ripping out a mag. It is commonly taught for many guns - 1911s for example. Lock back the slide, rip out the mag.
In advanced classes, instructors like Tom Givens, will set up such just to demonstrate and have you run through it.
About carrying an extra gun - many folks with advanced training do that. Sure, it is a pain - but carrying a gun in the first place is a pain. Careful equipment choice and dress mitigates the pain. Do we always do it - probably not. But it is not uncommon.
I would like to add about jams that it is very common to get a jam that necessitates ripping out a mag. It is commonly taught for many guns - 1911s for example. Lock back the slide, rip out the mag.
In advanced classes, instructors like Tom Givens, will set up such just to demonstrate and have you run through it.
About carrying an extra gun - many folks with advanced training do that. Sure, it is a pain - but carrying a gun in the first place is a pain. Careful equipment choice and dress mitigates the pain. Do we always do it - probably not. But it is not uncommon.
Ahh. I liked the way you stated it and is reasonable coming from your viewpoint. Ill still stand by not carrying extra mags. Just me though.
Ive shot many guns. The only ones which ftf or jam has been my ruger sr22 and my glock26 had 2 which got stovepipe within 100 rounds and never again. It was probably limp wrist, but ny g19 after couple hundred, g42 and g32 have never jammed.
The g26 was fixed by ejecting that round and chambering another one. Maybe slightly slower than pulling out another gun
But faster than dropping and inserting another magazine. In my opinion, by stating the nagazine should be ripped out and replaced indicates a problem with the magazine itself.
OldMarksman
Staff
That had been my experience--until I want to a class to which we had to bring 1.200 rounds.
No, the few failures that I experienced did not cause me to change my ways. What made me start really thinking about it was watching twelve other students clearing jams over the course of two days in another course, and during that course I had enough failures to shake me up quite a bit.
What did? It was the Pincus video that i mentioned above.
By the way, I will not carry a gun until we have put around 450 rounds through it.
Another viewpoint. With all the accidental shootings or negligent discharges in this country each year, we never seem to find any cases of the gun ftf. Of course if it did, it probably wouldnt make news as it wouldnt be a statistic and no one would be interested either. Just something to point out.
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