Carrying into friend/acquaintances' homes
- Thread starter Sefner
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Me neither, Tamara.
I don't carry "to" friends' houses. I do, however, carry every day and sometimes visit friends while I'm carrying.
As for the rest, here's my position: wherever I go, I am my own private property. What's under my outer clothing is my business, not anyone else's. I don't tell people what color underwear I have on, or what style of bra I am wearing, when I visit their homes. And I don't brag about anything else I'm wearing underneath my outer clothing. That's private and it stays private. I also don't get pre-approval for the contents of my purse (hint: there might be drugs in there! -- at least an Advil and some Rx antihistamines and possibly other things poisonous to the homeowner's children). And I don't ask permission to keep my pocketknife in my pocket, either.
If you post a "no guns" sign outside your home, I'll respect it. You will be morally wrong to do it, but I'll respect it -- by never darkening your door again. I'll do that not to punish you, nor in a fit of pique, but simply as a recognition that we have no functional friendship, because you will be telling me that you do not trust me. I don't keep friends who refuse the gift of trust. Life's too short.
If you do forbid others to be armed on your property, I believe you are the moral equivalent of King George refusing arms to the colonists, because the land where they lived was his land and he didn't want those people armed on his land. He was morally wrong to do that -- and so are you, for exactly the same reasons. But life's too short to argue about it, and I won't.
Some of the people who have posted in this thread apparently want to keep friends they don't trust, even after they have insulted those friends and demanded control over what's underneath their friends' outer clothing. Now that's a shocking notion.
Finally, I'd like to quote my 'net-friend Matt G, who runs a nice blog at http://maypeacebewithyou.blogspot.com . Matt was writing about another topic, but what he said has so much applicability to some of the posts made here that I just have to quote him.
So yes, I do go armed onto friends' property. And I don't announce my carry status. But if you ask me to leave -- I will.
pax
I don't carry "to" friends' houses. I do, however, carry every day and sometimes visit friends while I'm carrying.
As for the rest, here's my position: wherever I go, I am my own private property. What's under my outer clothing is my business, not anyone else's. I don't tell people what color underwear I have on, or what style of bra I am wearing, when I visit their homes. And I don't brag about anything else I'm wearing underneath my outer clothing. That's private and it stays private. I also don't get pre-approval for the contents of my purse (hint: there might be drugs in there! -- at least an Advil and some Rx antihistamines and possibly other things poisonous to the homeowner's children). And I don't ask permission to keep my pocketknife in my pocket, either.
If you post a "no guns" sign outside your home, I'll respect it. You will be morally wrong to do it, but I'll respect it -- by never darkening your door again. I'll do that not to punish you, nor in a fit of pique, but simply as a recognition that we have no functional friendship, because you will be telling me that you do not trust me. I don't keep friends who refuse the gift of trust. Life's too short.
If you do forbid others to be armed on your property, I believe you are the moral equivalent of King George refusing arms to the colonists, because the land where they lived was his land and he didn't want those people armed on his land. He was morally wrong to do that -- and so are you, for exactly the same reasons. But life's too short to argue about it, and I won't.
Some of the people who have posted in this thread apparently want to keep friends they don't trust, even after they have insulted those friends and demanded control over what's underneath their friends' outer clothing. Now that's a shocking notion.
Finally, I'd like to quote my 'net-friend Matt G, who runs a nice blog at http://maypeacebewithyou.blogspot.com . Matt was writing about another topic, but what he said has so much applicability to some of the posts made here that I just have to quote him.
Matt G at Better & Better Blog said:
So yes, I do go armed onto friends' property. And I don't announce my carry status. But if you ask me to leave -- I will.
pax
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Property owners definitely have a right to forbid firearms on their property, but why would we want to do so with an invited guest? Your guest (a) has enough training to hold a CCP, and (b) is your friend. What is the threat? In any of the events that would make you need your own weapon, you now have an ally. And my firearm is safest under my control; it is not a threat to kids or anyone else when it is securely holstered on my person, and is in fact less so than if I left it in a car subject to burglary.
The situation in an earlier post, of a person not well know to the host showing up at a yard party with a weapon in plain view (and do I take it correctly that they were drinking more than a little bit?) is quite different and can reasonably be treated differently than that of an invited guest with a properly concealed weapon (and who maintains sobriety.)
As a guest, when and how do you announce that you are carrying? I don't walk into the bank and shout, "I have a gun!" It is concealed, and things could go badly if concealment is broken. How do you make that announcement in someone's home, and why? If it is concealed as it should be, you should be able to enjoy dinner or table games or nearly anything that doesn't require a change of clothes (I'm thinking pool party here, for those of you with dirty minds) without your host even knowing it is present. While I am there, I feel a certain sense of responsibility for my host; they are under my protection, however slight the risk of problems, with or without their knowledge.
To those who think it rude not to announce your carry status on arrival, I have to say I don't feel I have been rude to have been out with friends, either in public or in someone's home, without announcing that I am carrying. I would find it more socially awkward to announce my carry status without being prompted than to just quietly go about the business of socializing in what is for me my normal status.
I ask those who said they feel rudely treated when someone brings a firearm into their home unannounced: How did you then find out they were armed? Do you announce your carry status as a guest, and how? When attending a party, do you announce your carry status only to the host, or to other guests as well? Not being a wise guy - genuinely interested in how you think this is to be handled if you feel it is rude to have it kept a secret from you.
The situation in an earlier post, of a person not well know to the host showing up at a yard party with a weapon in plain view (and do I take it correctly that they were drinking more than a little bit?) is quite different and can reasonably be treated differently than that of an invited guest with a properly concealed weapon (and who maintains sobriety.)
As a guest, when and how do you announce that you are carrying? I don't walk into the bank and shout, "I have a gun!" It is concealed, and things could go badly if concealment is broken. How do you make that announcement in someone's home, and why? If it is concealed as it should be, you should be able to enjoy dinner or table games or nearly anything that doesn't require a change of clothes (I'm thinking pool party here, for those of you with dirty minds) without your host even knowing it is present. While I am there, I feel a certain sense of responsibility for my host; they are under my protection, however slight the risk of problems, with or without their knowledge.
To those who think it rude not to announce your carry status on arrival, I have to say I don't feel I have been rude to have been out with friends, either in public or in someone's home, without announcing that I am carrying. I would find it more socially awkward to announce my carry status without being prompted than to just quietly go about the business of socializing in what is for me my normal status.
I ask those who said they feel rudely treated when someone brings a firearm into their home unannounced: How did you then find out they were armed? Do you announce your carry status as a guest, and how? When attending a party, do you announce your carry status only to the host, or to other guests as well? Not being a wise guy - genuinely interested in how you think this is to be handled if you feel it is rude to have it kept a secret from you.
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Pax, that's an interesting idea, ("I'm my own private property"), but I think the King George analogy is false. We are discussing property owners, not monarchies.
I'm sure you are a very responsible gun owner and carrier. I'm also sure there are people who are packing and drinking, packing who set their gun down somewhere and forget about it, people who are packing and on drugs, people who haven't mastered basic safety rules, etc.
It's a false analogy to compare it to your underwear because your underwear will never have an AD or ND. You can be as negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, unfocused, but your underwear are not going to hurt anyone or anything.
Do you seriously think that every legal gun owner is a responsible decision maker? (I'd like to think most of us are. But that's still most, not all.)
Further, there are many people who are anti's and I believe they have a right to not allow guns into their home.
The overall argument seems to be about whether individual autonomy and authority over one's own property reigns supreme, or whether the 2nd amendment trumps individual property rights.
The whole argument confuses me.
I'm sure you are a very responsible gun owner and carrier. I'm also sure there are people who are packing and drinking, packing who set their gun down somewhere and forget about it, people who are packing and on drugs, people who haven't mastered basic safety rules, etc.
It's a false analogy to compare it to your underwear because your underwear will never have an AD or ND. You can be as negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, unfocused, but your underwear are not going to hurt anyone or anything.
Do you seriously think that every legal gun owner is a responsible decision maker? (I'd like to think most of us are. But that's still most, not all.)
Further, there are many people who are anti's and I believe they have a right to not allow guns into their home.
The overall argument seems to be about whether individual autonomy and authority over one's own property reigns supreme, or whether the 2nd amendment trumps individual property rights.
The whole argument confuses me.
Not trying to fuss with you, Kayla, but how else do you know your host's feelings on the matter? I was particularly addressing those who said they feel they have been rudely treated when someone else carries into their home without advanced permission. There seems no way to gain that permission without bringing up one's status.
I doubt that you will get any serious arguments, either here or in a court, that property owners have the right to set the rules on their own property, including how firearms are treated. My point was that, whether in a business or in someone's home, proper concealment keeps it from being brought up and becoming an issue. Drugs, heavy drinking, and general irresponsibility DO NOT mix with firearms (or driving, or lots of other things that require good decision making) and are an issue at least somewhat independent of banning firearms from a property; i.e., in my mind you are removing firearms from an unsafe situation rather than a setting by taking a stand in that situation, and I am 100% behind you.
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Kayla, the reasoning King George used is exactly the same as the private property owner's reasoning. The reason the king forbade the peasants to have arms was because they were on his property. That was what gave him the "moral" right to disarm the peasantry. I reject that reasoning, and do not believe that anyone has the moral right to disarm anyone else. It isn't enough to say, "it's not the same," because I'm not really seeing the difference here. That's the reasoning he used, and it was wrong when he used it in regards to his property. Why would it be right when someone else used it in regards to their property?
However, even though I don't admit that anyone has the moral right to disarm another person, I do recognize the moral, legal, and practical right of any homeowner to forbid certain people from entering their property.
Which is why I also specifically mentioned the drugs in my purse and the pocketknife in my pocket. Those things are dangerous! If I am actively malicious, I can kill everyone in the place with that pocketknife. If I am not malicious, just stupid, I can maim you or one of your loved ones by accident. If I am negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, or unfocused, the contents of my purse can kill my friends' children. And yet, somehow that's okay. We don't demand that our aging parents remove all the powerful prescription drugs from their suitcases before they can visit our homes. It's no different: those things are dangerous, and those things can kill people either maliciously or accidentally.
What I'm getting at is that people get emotional because they have been enculturated to be afraid of the "GUN!!!" But no matter how we parse it, the disagreement is truly NOT about bringing something dangerous onto the property. It's about that scary, frightening, Hollywood-ized fearsome thing, the GUN!!!!
Something else: did you hear yourself say that some people might be "negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, or unfocused"? I agree! People might be any of those things. But people like that aren't my friends. I don't make friends with people I don't trust. Why would anyone do that? I don't invite people like that into my home.
And ... I also don't make friends with people who don't trust me. If they think I am "negligent, ditzed out, forgetful, or unfocused," to the point where I cannot be trusted with ordinary everyday objects, I'm not really going to enjoy hanging out with them.
It's not about the presence of a tool. It's about the character of the person who owns the tool.
On a legal level, of course they do.
On a moral level, nope. They have a right not to allow certain people on their property. But I do not believe that any person has the moral right to disarm another, absent criminal behavior.
And on a practical level, no one in the entire history of the world has ever succeeded in keeping weapons off their property. The foorah over firearms is foolish (try saying that ten times fast!), because anyone determined to harm you can do so with an amazing number of objects in your home. -- Do you know what's the second most common murder weapon used in stabbing deaths in America?
Finally -- and please believe me, I'm not being snarky here -- but I'm curious how to reconcile this:
Kayla said:
Kayla, as a practical matter, you've said you'd be mad if your friends didn't tell you that they were armed. Understandable -- but such a position necessarily implies that they do tell you at some point before they enter your property. When and how are you expecting them to tell you, if not at the door?
pax
Thanks for all the input on the topic guys. A few comments from the OP as I've watched this unfold 
.
If we are going to argue, as kayla said, over individual autonomy versus the rights of property owners, kayla has that debate won. As much as we'd all like to carry on everyone else's property we simply do not have the right to carry on someone else's property without their permission (at least in the traditional American philosophy. Whether or not we do actually have a moral right to this is a debate for another time). The question then becomes "What is permission?" and that's what I'd like to focus on (before we start beating a dead horse). Obviously a sign saying "no guns" or a bumper sticker on the car that says "Brady Campaign" or "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication (slight troll there with the Obama one
). Some new points of discussion:
Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"?
As TailGator has been trying to ask (and the question I am also most interested in), HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly?
Lastly, assuming that the home owner does NOT let you carry, how do you approach situation then? More specifically how do you education them? How do you say "Hey, it's not me, the lawful CHL holder, that you have to fear, it's the person who comes in here brandishing the gun uninvited."?
We can argue over whether or not we have a right to carry on someone else's property all day, and the debate here has been very good. But we should try to move on before it gets a little out of hand
I think WE would all, upon hearing that a guest is an CHLer, would be more than happy to have them in the house (most of them at least). But remember, we aren't talking about us. We are talking about a slightly random person. From Jim Brady himself to Sarah Palin and everywhere in between. What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)?
.If we are going to argue, as kayla said, over individual autonomy versus the rights of property owners, kayla has that debate won. As much as we'd all like to carry on everyone else's property we simply do not have the right to carry on someone else's property without their permission (at least in the traditional American philosophy. Whether or not we do actually have a moral right to this is a debate for another time). The question then becomes "What is permission?" and that's what I'd like to focus on (before we start beating a dead horse). Obviously a sign saying "no guns" or a bumper sticker on the car that says "Brady Campaign" or "Obama '08" is a pretty clear indication (slight troll there with the Obama one
). Some new points of discussion:Do you simply assume permission unless otherwise stated as poptime analogized (which is a word) with the shoe example? Why? What about, as some have mentioned, "politeness"?
As TailGator has been trying to ask (and the question I am also most interested in), HOW do you tell people you are carrying (obviously assuming you chose to do so)? Do you tell just the host? Everyone? Do you mention it ahead of time? Try to ask indirectly?
Lastly, assuming that the home owner does NOT let you carry, how do you approach situation then? More specifically how do you education them? How do you say "Hey, it's not me, the lawful CHL holder, that you have to fear, it's the person who comes in here brandishing the gun uninvited."?
We can argue over whether or not we have a right to carry on someone else's property all day, and the debate here has been very good. But we should try to move on before it gets a little out of hand
I think WE would all, upon hearing that a guest is an CHLer, would be more than happy to have them in the house (most of them at least). But remember, we aren't talking about us. We are talking about a slightly random person. From Jim Brady himself to Sarah Palin and everywhere in between. What approach works best for MOST people and avoids the MOST confrontation (because all confrontation can't be avoided)?
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Pax, you don't sound snarky. So, no worries. If anything, you're moving my line a tiny bit more than anyone else has. 
I don't need someone to ANNOUNCE anything. I don't know if they even need to ASK me, per se. If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked.
None of my carrying friends have asked permission, but they did let me know they carry. I've never asked any of them to leave their weapons at home or in their vehicle.
It's not some big HONKING deal that needs to be shouted from the rooftops every time someone enters my home.
Let me give you a different example -- I mentioned in a different post, I was out somewhere with a man who I think was carrying. I would not want him in my house carrying because I think he's a bit off. Too much back story, but if the guy does come to my house, I will directly ask him and tell him he can't carry in my house.
I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home.
Also, I'm not thinking someone is going to try to kill me. If I had that concern, they wouldn't be in my house!!
But back to my real issue. It isn't about drinking or being high or careless. My real issue simply remains that it's my house. To me, the rest is just fluffy theoreticals.
And sorry, Pax, but the King George thing makes no sense to me. His logic may have been the same, but even you admit that a homeowner should have the right to disallow firearms. Your argument is whether one should let the homeowner know. (Unless I've misunderstood you.)
I don't need someone to ANNOUNCE anything. I don't know if they even need to ASK me, per se. If I generally know someone conceals, that opens the door for me to ASK them. And, in my life to date, that's how it's worked.
None of my carrying friends have asked permission, but they did let me know they carry. I've never asked any of them to leave their weapons at home or in their vehicle.
It's not some big HONKING deal that needs to be shouted from the rooftops every time someone enters my home.
Let me give you a different example -- I mentioned in a different post, I was out somewhere with a man who I think was carrying. I would not want him in my house carrying because I think he's a bit off. Too much back story, but if the guy does come to my house, I will directly ask him and tell him he can't carry in my house.
I have no problem with him being in my home, but I would have a problem with him being armed and in my home.
Also, I'm not thinking someone is going to try to kill me. If I had that concern, they wouldn't be in my house!!
But back to my real issue. It isn't about drinking or being high or careless. My real issue simply remains that it's my house. To me, the rest is just fluffy theoreticals.
And sorry, Pax, but the King George thing makes no sense to me. His logic may have been the same, but even you admit that a homeowner should have the right to disallow firearms. Your argument is whether one should let the homeowner know. (Unless I've misunderstood you.)
MajorWhiteBoy
New member
i'd like to think that i have the right to tell folks what they can and can't bring into my yard or house. i'd expect others to feel the same.
the way you guys are talking about disarming vs letting rules be known and expecting folks to follow them doesn't seem appropriate, unless you're talking about physically disarming them yourself. i don't see saying "if you come over, please don't bring your gun" as disarming someone. it's their choice to come and leave the guns at home.
if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.
the way you guys are talking about disarming vs letting rules be known and expecting folks to follow them doesn't seem appropriate, unless you're talking about physically disarming them yourself. i don't see saying "if you come over, please don't bring your gun" as disarming someone. it's their choice to come and leave the guns at home.
if i knew someone didn't want my guns in their house, i wouldn't do it. i doubt i'd ask them first, though, and i doubt they'd know i was armed.
MajorWB said:
Major, that's my bottom line too. But I go one step further: I won't visit them unarmed.
Kayla said:
Kayla, I can't follow this logic at all. If I don't trust the guy, I don't trust him and that's that. I don't want him around. I'm not worried about things, I worry about people and their intentions. In the case of (sorry guys) adult males specifically, I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me. Because of that awareness ...
A story.
A few years back, a friend got pulled over for a broken taillight while I was in the vehicle. The officer came up to the window & my friend handed over his driver's license and his carry permit. The officer glanced at the DL, and did a double take at the carry permit -- then took a step back, hand on weapon, and (obvious change in physical demeanor and voice meant he was worried) demanded to know if my friend was carrying. Friend said he was, asked how to proceed. The officer disarmed him. As soon as my friend was disarmed, the officer visibly and dramatically relaxed, obviously no longer worried in the slightest, body language not careful or on guard. The officer KNEW the scene was safe now, because he had taken control of "the" weapon. And yet ... all the while, I sat in the passenger seat, equally armed as my friend had been. The officer never addressed me, never really looked at me, and never asked my carry status. And yet he became totally relaxed as soon as he thought he'd gotten control of "THE" weapon. If you define safety as everyone being disarmed, the officer hadn't achieved safety. But he thought he had. And because he thought everyone was disarmed and therefore defenseless, he dramatically relaxed his vigilance, thus becoming far more at risk than he would have been if he'd stayed on full alert knowing there were weapons on scene.
So back to what I was saying. I'm always aware that almost any adult male can physically overpower me, if he tries hard enough. So if I don't trust the guy to begin with, disarming him really isn't going to do anything for me, safety-wise, and I know it. If the guy sets off my alarms, it isn't safe for me to hang around him, because I can't disarm him entirely -- he will still have his own body, which is larger than mine and more powerful.
Hopefully you follow my logic here; I'm talking about keeping yourself safe! Hinky people are hinky, and should be avoided. Disarming them doesn't make them less dangerous to you. It simply means you don't know what implements they'll use to attack, if that's their plan.
Sorry - that was off topic but needed to be said. Stay safe, k?
Kayla said:
That's generally how it will work -- among people who do trust each other.
Just don't expect that you actually know who among your friends generally carries. My sweet old grandmother kept a .25 under her mattress for many years -- and voted Democrat for all those years, too. She told me once that she carried for awhile after she left her abusive first husband. Quite a woman, grandma was.
One time at church I told someone I was taking a class; they asked what class and since I didn't have a deflection prepared I told them it was a handgun class. I was soon surrounded by a chattering group of women who each wanted me to know about the firearms they carried in their purses!
Just about blew me away, because of course there were women in that group that I'd NEVER have expected it of!What I'm saying is that as the homeowner you can't necessarily trust that you know who is or isn't carrying, or even who is likely to be carrying. You can ask the ones you wonder about, but it's a sure bet that you'll miss some of 'em.
Further, as the person who is armed, you can't simply go around telling the whole world about it, just in case someone might object. If you get in the habit of telling everyone, you no longer have a concealed firearm. And it becomes a huge hairy deal rather than simply something you wear every day.
Keep your eye on the people, notsomuch on the objects.
sefner said:
These days, my friends and relatives all know what I do for a living, so it's different for me. Easy to be cavalier about the "how" when everyone in my life already knows what I do and why I do it.
A long time back, when I was first getting into concealed carry, the single most uncomfortable moment I've ever had while carrying came when I tried to be a good (relative) and inform my (relative) that I was carrying in her home. She didn't quite kick me out of the house, but it was a near thing. I think the only thing that saved me was her knowledge that if she'd tried, her husband and mine would probably both have pitched a fit on my behalf. I felt guilty about that for years (still do, in fact) because there really was no need to make her so uncomfortable. She didn't need to know I was carrying in the first place! My gun was going to stay out of sight and under my control at all times. There was nothing she would have had to do differently simply because I had a gun with me. It was only my own selfish need for approval that made me tell her.
pax
If you are unsure about your ability to keep your gun concealed and under your complete control at all times e.g. you're one of the morons who unholsters it and sets it on the back of the toilet where it can be forgotten, then you should leave it at home or in the car. This is especially true if there are going to be any children present.
If you know you will be having some adult beverages leave it at home or in the car.
Personally if I invited someone over and they said, "Do you mind if I carry my gun?" I'd find it really creepy.
If you know you will be having some adult beverages leave it at home or in the car.
Personally if I invited someone over and they said, "Do you mind if I carry my gun?" I'd find it really creepy.
I do assume permission unless otherwise informed. Why? Because it's consistant with the law, at least in my state. If a property owner wants to restrict otherwise lawful activity on their property they are required to inform people either verbally or through posted signage. When it comes to my CCW piece, security trumps politeness at all times. For other firearms I wouldn't have a problem asking for permission first.
I know the approach that works for me is: don't ask, don't tell and don't even talk about firearms unless somebody strikes up a conversation about them and then keep my participation in said conversation as brief as possible. Since I began following that philosophy, I have avoided confrontation 100% of the time.
This thread concerns the permission of the land owner to extend an invite to two classes of relationship: 1) friends and 2) acquaintances.
May I assume that your friends are people who have earned your trust? This trust might extent to their carrying weapon on your property and home. If we assume that your friends are people that you know well enough to know their conviction about concealed carry and do not specifically tell them the invitation is to exclude carrying of a firearm, then it is implicit that the invitation includes permission for them to carry a weapon.
Acquaintances are people who have not yet earned your trust.
When extending an invitation to a friend I assume that the invitation includes their carrying a weapon. An invitation to an acquaintance would not automatically include that permission to carry a weapon.
An analogy as the the extent of permission granted to persons on your land could be seen in hunting versus hiking. The invitation is at the whim of the land owner and can include certain parameters or not; also the duration of the permission is up to the land owner. [I am assuming a relationship here where the land owner is not receiving compensation of the use of his property and no contract and reciprocal duties are involved.]
Pax,
While your analogy of the King's exercise of his power over his subjects on his land is illustrative to a point, as with all analogies it breaks down. Fortunately, we in the U.S.A. live in a classless society. We have the 14th Amendment with its equal protection clause. Unfortunately, we have a federal government which is acting more like an Imperial government which regards the People as property and subjects to be ruled much like a king did in feudal times.
I agree that is is morally wrong to insist upon the disarming of a responsible law-abiding adult.
I submit that disarming a responsible law-abiding adult is not within the power of an invitation (Private Action) which excludes a guest from carrying a handgun in your home. It is the choice of the guest to remain or leave.
This is to be distinguished from "State Action" which disarms the people and the people have no choice whether to stay or leave.
Here we have a conflict of rights between one individual's property rights and another individual's right to bear arms. Neither is absolute.
May I assume that your friends are people who have earned your trust? This trust might extent to their carrying weapon on your property and home. If we assume that your friends are people that you know well enough to know their conviction about concealed carry and do not specifically tell them the invitation is to exclude carrying of a firearm, then it is implicit that the invitation includes permission for them to carry a weapon.
Acquaintances are people who have not yet earned your trust.
When extending an invitation to a friend I assume that the invitation includes their carrying a weapon. An invitation to an acquaintance would not automatically include that permission to carry a weapon.
An analogy as the the extent of permission granted to persons on your land could be seen in hunting versus hiking. The invitation is at the whim of the land owner and can include certain parameters or not; also the duration of the permission is up to the land owner. [I am assuming a relationship here where the land owner is not receiving compensation of the use of his property and no contract and reciprocal duties are involved.]
Pax,
While your analogy of the King's exercise of his power over his subjects on his land is illustrative to a point, as with all analogies it breaks down. Fortunately, we in the U.S.A. live in a classless society. We have the 14th Amendment with its equal protection clause. Unfortunately, we have a federal government which is acting more like an Imperial government which regards the People as property and subjects to be ruled much like a king did in feudal times.
I agree that is is morally wrong to insist upon the disarming of a responsible law-abiding adult.
I submit that disarming a responsible law-abiding adult is not within the power of an invitation (Private Action) which excludes a guest from carrying a handgun in your home. It is the choice of the guest to remain or leave.
This is to be distinguished from "State Action" which disarms the people and the people have no choice whether to stay or leave.
Here we have a conflict of rights between one individual's property rights and another individual's right to bear arms. Neither is absolute.
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KAYLA:
in reading your comments at first i thought...wow she is a gun hater...then i read more and you say" my friends that usually carry i dont ask to leave their guns at home"
So how do you have it? are you concealed pro or against...i'm confused?
if you know someone is carrying your okay with it? but not if you had kids? what does that have to do it? you think that they are going to hand the gun to your child to play with like a frisbee?
next topic:
the alcohol thing...i dont want anyone drunk with a gun in their pocket. but im not going to say they cant enter my home if they are sober. IF your going to be drinking to get drunk...leave the gun at home(how you getting home by the way?)
I personlly only have a few people whos homes i go to. THEYALL know and feel comfortable with the fact that i pack heat everywhere i go...so when im in their homes...they KNOW i have it with me!
but then again most of them are carrying too so its all good.
I don't hang around tree huggers or anti gun people because my opinion of them is that they are idiots...why would i hang around people that i didnt enjoy or who judged me.
in reading your comments at first i thought...wow she is a gun hater...then i read more and you say" my friends that usually carry i dont ask to leave their guns at home"
So how do you have it? are you concealed pro or against...i'm confused?
if you know someone is carrying your okay with it? but not if you had kids? what does that have to do it? you think that they are going to hand the gun to your child to play with like a frisbee?
next topic:
the alcohol thing...i dont want anyone drunk with a gun in their pocket. but im not going to say they cant enter my home if they are sober. IF your going to be drinking to get drunk...leave the gun at home(how you getting home by the way?)
I personlly only have a few people whos homes i go to. THEYALL know and feel comfortable with the fact that i pack heat everywhere i go...so when im in their homes...they KNOW i have it with me!
but then again most of them are carrying too so its all good.
I don't hang around tree huggers or anti gun people because my opinion of them is that they are idiots...why would i hang around people that i didnt enjoy or who judged me.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
I don't understand the practical aspects of this thread.
I get invited - I carry concealed. Why do you think I must announce to the homeowner that I carry?
If they don't want guns - then they should put in on the RSVP or a sign outside.
What about the gun makes it a moral imperative to announce it as compared to my underwear choice.
If you think you are going to ND in a house - well - you shouldn't be carrying anywhere.
Must I tell a Christian that I have a Jewish Star under my shirt? Must I tell you that I'm wearing party underwear?
I carry a reasonable knife also.
If you don't want guns - announce that so I can choose not to come to your house.
As far as the 'my house my rules' - I got a test - take off your clothes - stand by the picture window when the school bus arrives - wait for the law.
If you can't trust someone to carry and they scare you - I got a hint for you - have nothing to do with them. Don't invite them to your house.
I get invited - I carry concealed. Why do you think I must announce to the homeowner that I carry?
If they don't want guns - then they should put in on the RSVP or a sign outside.
What about the gun makes it a moral imperative to announce it as compared to my underwear choice.
If you think you are going to ND in a house - well - you shouldn't be carrying anywhere.
Must I tell a Christian that I have a Jewish Star under my shirt? Must I tell you that I'm wearing party underwear?
I carry a reasonable knife also.
If you don't want guns - announce that so I can choose not to come to your house.
As far as the 'my house my rules' - I got a test - take off your clothes - stand by the picture window when the school bus arrives - wait for the law.
If you can't trust someone to carry and they scare you - I got a hint for you - have nothing to do with them. Don't invite them to your house.
I think it's best handled long before the time you reach their door. I personally don't go to many people's houses if I don't know them very well.
If people know me, then they know I enjoy guns, and most likely know I have a permit and do carry. I rarely have to ask outright if the person wants me to carry in their home.
At present the only home I've been forbidden to carry in is my girlfriend's parent's house. Her mother thinks it's stupid of me to carry all the time (of course, that might be because she thinks everything I do is stupid) She's not anti gun (they own several) just anti me.
If I've been invited to someone's house that I don't know well, I'll normally mention that I do carry, and ask if they would be more comfortable with my leaving it in the car.
Now if you're coming to my place, my rules are simple.
Keep it in the holster unless there's a good reason not too.
If you're gonna drink, leave it home, in your car, or let me lock it in my safe. If you're drunk you'll get it back when I let you have your keys (I'm taking those too)
Follow the gun safety rules.
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