Can't just blast away!!!!!!

Yes, but you several posters who continue to offer what you would have done with the non-kidnapping, drawing guns, blasting "perps", whatever, what is wrong with what happened?: Nothing happened. Nothing was real good since there was no kidnapping. That's the reality.

What is the point of fuming about cowards and non-involvement, tactics you would have employed etc.
- as if there was a crime you would have stopped but others didn't? That is all a fiction. It didn't happen. There was no kidnapping.There was no crime. That's real.

Seems to be a real fierce commitment to your own needs to now "fiddle" with an ideal and benign outcome; whatever those needs are they are not in response to the needs of what actually happened, to reality. And people who have all these needs their guns are supposed to fulfill........ dangerous combination.
 
I just don't like the theme of the retired folk, that anything other than self-preserving benign repsonse is 'guns a blazin', when that was never advocated.
 
Why is it when a pro-intervention type says they would get involved and draw their gun, the 'bystanders' have to instantly say "You gonna shoot them???"

Well sir, in my training we were not taught to pull until it was shooting time, us old timers live by that. Do not show a weapon until it is time to use it, so I see a person post they would pull I think next thing is shoot. What you describe may be considered "brandishing" in some cases. We are trying to get folks off the anti gun bandwagon, not add to it. Most folks are afraid of guns, cant change it overnight. Keep this in mind when you carry.

I am not a pacifist, used to love breaking heads and getting in the middle of it all. Things change over time and after being shot and stabbed. I am not invinsible, I realize that now, didnt used to. If I am not in fear for my life, no weapon, call 911 etc. let the pros handle it. I would try to help anyone in need but my family is first.
 
gvf, you raise some valid points.

Still, this is a thread with a title "can't just blast away".

I think its important that this kind of thing is said- that the most important aspect of safety is not your concealed weapon, but your HEAD.

Having said that, we also seem to benefit from the discussions about "what would Jesus do" in almost every imaginable scenario. This particular scenario described a crime in progress (or what a reasonable person would understand to be a crime in progress). The nature of the crime was such that it appeared likely that it would end in death or serious injury.

While I'm glad the real-life version of this ended with no casualties, the truth is that the entire scenario is an anomaly. Every other case of "two young men putting a bag over a woman's head" (that I've ever heard of)end in that woman's death- except in a few cases where law enforcement got lucky.

As the father of two children, including a young daughter, I am highly sensitized to issues like this, and frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing about young girls being murdered almost weekly. Criminals are getting more and more brazen, and have started snatching women and girls off their front lawns, from Target shopping centers, and from their rooms while they sleep. The proliferation of horror movies and porn is probably feeding these unstable people, and may even help push that 1 in 100,000 nutcase over the edge.

By having a chance to talk it through, we imagine a plan of action. In some small way, this makes us feel a bit more prepared for the day, should it ever come, when we are the ones under pressure to make a decision where the outcome could determine whether someone lives or dies. Not being prepared means not having control. In some measure, reading about these scenarios helps us be prepared, and therefore gives us just a little more control over things we secretly fear, no matter how hardcore we might be.

As for "brandishing" a weapon, I don't believe it should be done. What I described above is not "brandishing". The indoor ready position is not a means of flashing your weapon like an MTV Rap star. It is a position which grants the carrier maximum control in an indoor situation that may require immediate action.

If I ever have to draw my weapon to stop the perpetrator of a crime (yes I said perpetrator, since I don't know of a better word), it will be to save a life. There's the litmus test: were you saving a life from imminent death or severe bodily harm?
 
Without being there, or even having even seen what usually is a murky surveillance video that leaves out details and which itself is second-hand record of what went on, it may or may not have read as a certain crime to those who actually saw it. However, it may have - by dint of the youth of all, ("boys" not "men" was the term used here for those who were putting a hood over "a girl") - looked a bit confusing as to what was happening. That would be that for any intervention involving lethal action - for good reason: you don't endanger lives with an indeterminate scene in front of you, or even a doubt. License numbers, following the group outside while calling 911, those could be enough - and were for authorities - or someone - to determine this was a joke.

As to real crimes you mention, yes they are horrible. And maybe on a rare occasion a bystander can help. Practically speaking, there usually is little that can be done because of many things: the speed of the crime, an abduction, the fact that often there IS doubt as to what is happening: is the older man who grabs a 5 yr old and puts her in his car abducting her?, looks like it, but you only see the "middle scenes" of this story. You don't see the whole film: harried cell phone call of the man to his wife from the car saying "how could you lose her at a STORE!?" or him saying "O thank God" before he snatches his daughter up with high emotion and quickly puts her in the car, and speeds away home to make sure she's OK. Then calls his wife to tell her he found her in store parking lot and she seems OK so far.

Even bystanders who see what IS a crime, will often do the wrong thing. Case from the streets of NYC in point: psychotic homeless man acting violently squatting against wall on sidewalk, someone reports he has a knife: what do you do? pull your gun and fire, scream while pulling it: "drop the knife or I shoot", punch him, what? Here's what the cops did: not one cop, but 5 or 6 cars with 2 cops in each, 3 cars drive onto sidewalk forming wall around man, 2 other cars and cops hang back a few yards. Ambulance shows up. All cops leave cars casually and casually form an interior half-circle inside the perimeter of their parked cars, no hands are on guns, they are alert but relaxed. A Lieutenant takes position in middle of the half-circle and begins a long,quiet conversation with the perp, it is inaudible to any but the cops and the perp. After 10 min the talk seems to end and homeless man stands up on his own and quickly but quietly the Lt. cuffs the man with two officers helping, no rough handling of the man, the Lt. still quietly speaking to him while cuffing him. Two paramedics step in and all slowly walk towards ambulance. More quiet talk to the perp in the back of the ambulance, then slowly with flashing lights but no siren it drives away, followed by a squad car, no lights, no siren. It was perfect, professional, must have been done by these cops many times in the past, or rehearsed a lot. The crisis for the man was brought to a close by what seems a counter-intuitive means: non-violence. His acute crisis and danger to all was over. No cop, no bystander, no perp was hurt at all.

I don't think many bystanders in this, an actual threat, could have pulled this off, or even known to try it. Other and very confrontational ways may have produced a full psychotic, berzerk reaction, slashing knife, etc. with wounded and killed, including maybe the homeless and disturbed man.

So,either bystanders are not often in a position to "see the whole play" and really know if the bit of the scene they witness is a crime to begin with.

Or when it is a crime, their participation is based on lack of knowledge, lack of man-power, lack of proper tools to use. And they can unintentionally create more harm.

The few Bystanders that fall into neither of the above, yes they can help stop a killing perhaps. But this is one potential good next to an awful lot of chances at damage and harm.
 
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