Can't just blast away!!!!!!

I find it difficult to believe it's not 'ones duty' to interfer. I don't think it's appropriate to pull a weapon if carrying, but I do think it's appropriate to get a license plate number and follow the vehicle if they take off.

It's a sad state of affairs when our actions are driven more by concerns about liability than they are about trying to help someone that's apparently in danger. Speaks well for the litigatious society we have.

It wasn't a very smart for the 'kids' to do something like that. You can be sure if someone had gotten hurt that there'd be all sorts of law suits.
 
Ernie boy! Some of us have spent considerable time in emergency services of one kind or another and have some training and a conscience. You read way too much into my statement. I've said before in other posts and on other boards, things are not always what they appear to be; even outlined a force-on-force scenario that drove that home. Don't get your panties in a wad, these are always individual decisions and vary widely from situation to situation. I'll make my own calls when and if necessary, God forbid it ever becomes necessary!

Stay safe. And calm.
Bob
 
I don't get it. If you saw that kidnapping, why would you blast away anyway? You're life isn't in danger. They're not hurting the girl. They're not committing homicide, they committing a kidnapping. I thought that you can only shoot to stop a threat to your life, not to be a vigilante and take the law into your own hands. Even the police wouldn't blast away. They would first identify themselves and order the kids to stop. Why do people think that since they have a CCW that they're above the law and can play judge, jury, and executioner?
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Point #1 - Abduction by force is a FELONY offense.
Point #2 - The slang term for when criminals take someone to a second location is "the doom ride" as it almost always results in the doom of the victim.
Point #3 - In several locations it is completely lawful to intervene in such a situation.

Now while I don't advise playing "lone ranger" and I often counsel others (and myself) to make sure you understand the full situation, I personally wouldn't fault someone for intercepting in this situation.

As for this specific part of your statement...
They're not hurting the girl. <snip> they're committing a kidnapping.
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Personally I'd tend to equal "kidnapped" with "being hurt".
 
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I have a question guys...

Is it just me, or is a key element of this discussion is being overlooked here? To me, the discussion isn't whether or not you would help a stranger in trouble, but whether or not you would involve your firearm when rendering aide to a person in trouble if no other weapon of any kind were present.

I thought Ernest had a legitimate question earlier:
Why do people think that since they have a CCW that they're above the law and can play judge, jury, and executioner?
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Drastic perhaps, but still...with a point. Having a permit to carry and a sidearm at your side is not a license to whip out your piece on every oppertunity. With this situation in particular:

No other weapon was visible during the abduction.

Didn't anyone else notice how scrawny those kids were? OK I can understand drawing your weapon when faced with numerous 6'7 300lb strongarm types who appear to be hell bent to cause somebody harm, but those kids?!?

It all gets back to what I was saying about assessing the situation and acting upon it accordingly.

Calling in the incident IS helping.

Getting the cars licence number IS being a responsible citizen.

Shouting at the perps to make them aware that they are being noticed can make a difference.

Hanging around till the authorities come to make a statement can be a great help.

I want to know, at what point in this scenerio is it appropriate to draw your sidearm?

And doesn't any one else feel that drawing your weapon in the parking lot of K-Mart could potentially escalate the situation by setting off a chain reaction? You draw and start yelling, someone else with no idea what's going on see's you with gun in hand and draws their weapon, while just then the first patrol car responding to the 911 call is just pulling into the parking lot....

I just think there is a lot you can do and should do responsibly before resorting to drawing your own weapon in a heavily populated area like that.
 
Thank you FS2K, you state my thoughts much more eloquently than I ever could. I would help by calling 911, making a statement to the police, etc. But if I saw no weapons, I wouldn't feel right about drawing on them.

You're right JWT, it is "a sad state of affairs when our actions are driven more by concerns about liability than they are about trying to help someone that's apparently in danger." But I don't want to go to jail, loose my guns, etc. So I have to be cautious because I'm not willing to "pay the price".
 
FS2K

You do make good points. That's part of why I love the discussion of these boards where you can think out the full ramifications of situations and get "outside the box" input that might not otherwise come up.
 
had that happen to me

Sitting in my living room, quiet neighborhood at dusk heared a girl screem outside retrieved my pistol steped out the front door. Found a teen girl standing next to a car she looks over at me smiles and says "I am alright." I responded, "Thats nice can you move away from the car?" she says "yeah, I know them." She moves a few steps back and says, "See." I assesed all was well. Never had to show my hand. Had tshtf I would have intervened. I will not stand by while another is injured if I can stop it. I will render aid if needed within my abilities. this is my home/neighborhood I will not live in fear.
Maybe I am naive. Just my .02
 
Generally speaking, when people kidnap a young girl, it is not because they want to order more Girl Scout cookies. I have 3 daughters and 5 granddaughters. While these particular guys meant no harm, had I been there, it would have been their very last 'prank'.
 
Sad state of affairs our country is in, when people refuse to intervene in a kidnapping, when the statistics i have heard say nearly 90%+ of them end in murder of the victim. Now all you people will ASK for me to site some evidence. All i can site to you is what my law class instructors taught me in College. Irregardless of the outcome i would intervene, resting easy(my bed, jail bed, casket) that i did everything i could save her/there life.
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I agree. It is indeed a VERY sad state when people are not willing to personally intervene in a situation like this...especially when a young girl is involved. It is well nigh pathetic and morally decrepit.

The founding fathers surely would not recognize this country today for this "all about me" attitude that is being displayed for all to see.

If anyone thinks that calling in a license plate is "helping" and makes them a good witness or citizen, you can be sure that if the perps are willing to kidnap a young girl in broad daylight and in a public place, then the car they are making their getaway is probably stolen and will be ditched within minutes...if not seconds.
 
Confront the suspected kidknappers. In this case a good shout would have ended the whole ordeal. At this point had either of the kidknappers brandashed their own weapon THEN it would be prudent to draw your weapon.
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Why on earth would you confront people who appeared to be committing a kidnapping without drawing your gun??? I'm not saying shoot first and ask questions later, but for god sakes if your going to intervene and draw attention to yourserlf at least have your weapon in hand. Waiting for them to brandish their own weapons is just insanely unsound tactics. This goes double for when there's multiple assailants... you're going to need to have every advantage you can get to keep control of the situation, and giving up the initiative by waiting for them to draw first is just a fast way to earning an honorable mention at the Darwin Awards.
 
Police draw their weapons plenty without killing anyone. The whole 'don't draw unless you intend to destroy' mantra is overblown. If it is 2 on 1, weapons or not, I would draw. And no I don't mean 'every situation' like some ppl extrapolate 'kidnapping' to equate to a 14 yr old shoplifting some bread. No, I am not talking about a situation like that.

I ssume a singular officer, outnumbered by felonious BG's, with no weapons, would draw as well and shout and call for backup etc, but wouldn't necessarily blow everybody away.

Drawing a gun on 2 punks kidnapping someone is completely reasonable, yes...even if they are not armed. And no, just because you have them at gunpoint does not mean you MUST shoot them.
 
I have thought long and hard about this situation and our "legal" response to it. Well I'm just an old southern boy and if I see a women in distress I WILL respond. I may not "blast away" but the lawyers and the legal system be d______ I will stand up for what is right.

I often wonder where we all get our morals, I'm not bashing anyone here, but we were all brought up to know wrong from right and to stand there and do nothing while a young lady (now think about it fella's) gets bagged with a pillow case and dragged out of a mall (shoot if you watch the video they almost knock down one guy getting out), well let's just say I might be looking bail money cause I will intervene. Now this being a prank all it would have taken is to step in front of the van and draw them boy's would have crapped their pants and give up right there. Other wise you have to try and stop them from taking the young lady using ALL means necessary.

We teach our children, scream, yell, kick, bite, anything they can do to get away and/or keep from being taken from their "safe area" are we not supposed to come to the rescue of someone in the same situation?
 
Well put. This Yankee agrees with you 100%.

For a while I was very saddened by what I was reading here...but I am starting to regain my confidence in the overall goodness of the "average joe" with the more recent posts.
 
Thanks Creature,

I was brought up that you don't strike a woman either, if you see someone beating on a woman it's your responsibilty to do something.

I'm 46 years old and I have never hit a woman ( I did push my ex once to get her out of my face). To me it's just easier to walk away than to lower my standards.

Had a guy tell me once he wouldn't hit a woman but if she hit him then she had stepped into a mans shoes and all bets are off, I asked him as big and strong as he was could he not block her instead of hitting her?
 
agreed with creature, dralarms, obxned, mortis - glad to see there are still men around.

fs2k: I want to know, at what point in this scenerio is it appropriate to draw your sidearm?
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If I watch two pukes perpetrating a felony involving the high possiblity of bodily harm, I AM APPROACHING WITH WEAPON DRAWN.

Two bg's capable of doing a serious felony (like kidnapping) are very likely armed. It is crazy to yell at them w/o gun drawn and allow them the element of suprise. They could draw and shoot you before you see it coming.

I wouldn't throw lead unless I had to, but my gun would be in the ready position, and I would be completely within my rights (tactical and legal) to have it drawn. I would try to have me and my gun take complete control of the situation. If it ends up being a prank, if it ends up being a cop in a drill, if it ends up being the real thing; I have complete control of the situation. Otherwise you put yourself and the victim in far greater danger. Nobody gets shot unless someone does something really stupid, at that point I am in the clear.

I can't beleive fs2k comments. Unbelievable.
fs2k: It surprises me that people would so easily go for their weapon in such a situation that didn't involve them directly, and didn't involve any other weapon being present.
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and

Too many people too willing to resort to deadly force too quickly.
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In this scenerio, a young women is being abducted for God's sake, and you say go for your weapon so easily??? That is too insignificant of an act for you to draw your weapon?? You have been de-sensitized !!
 
This type of scenario, or at least what it appeared to be, is one of the most often cited reasons why CCW laws should be passed. How many people mentioned that the Va Tech incident was worse than it should have been because there wasn't someone with a CCW around.

I think of it as a sort of contract with society. They passed a law that allows me to have a CCW. They have put a certain amount of faith in me that I am responsible and safe etc. They have done so assuming a certain amount of risk, since I may be less stable than I appear on paper and accidents do happen. In return I assume a certain responsibility toward society as a whole to do what I can when I can to defend other law abiding members of our society.

I think it is wrong to ask society to assume some risk without me assuming some responsibilities. Can you imagine trying to sleep if the abduction happened and you had the ability to stop it but didn't?
 
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