Thunderhawk88
Moderator
Mattro & Justme... +1
Can't just blast away!!!!!!
- Thread starter Bob F.
- Start date
Again, I am surprised...
OH gentlemen, all of you for drawing your weapon while approaching a situation like the one in question:
Are you saying if you weren't armed at that moment you wouldn't help? I have often said that firearms, handguns in particular are mere tools. They are not sources of power nor are they instruments to carry out moral actions. Handguns are no replacement for courage. They are there to sever a purpose, and that purpose is to defend. In the case of a CCW gun, the handgun in question is NOT intended to be an offensive weapon, it is a defensive tool.
I personally would render aide regardless if I was armed at the time or not, and even if I were armed at the time, I do not feel the level of danger while approaching the situation to assess the problem high enough to warrent drawing my gun. IF, and only if the situation escalated to the point where the perps were to produce a weapon of their own, or took an action that needed an instant response on my part would I ever resort to my gun, or any other weapon for that matter. What is it? Are you people afraid to approach a situation like that on your own unarmed? Surely a firearm would give you the upper hand in a situation where the presence of another weapon hasn't been established, and in real life there is no such thing as a "Fair" fight (in other words you should always strive to get the advantage in any confrontation) but drawing your gun before knowing what is going on is pre-mature, and quite frankly a little cowardly in my opinion. It goes back to what I was saying about how a firearm should never be a substitute for courage.
It doesn't take a pshchologist to see that people like mattro rely on their guns as a source of reinforced security. I'm speaking metally, not physically. Here you are, all galliant in wanting to save this little girl from being abducted, but harboring thoughts like :"
Again...how would you react to this exact same situation if you weren't armed at the time?
Would you stand by and hope someone else was armed?
This "weekend hero" metality is silly. You want to be a Hero, but only at the least amount of risk to yourself and only if the odds were stacked in your favor. Forgive me if you are offended by what I am saying here, it is truly not my intention to anger or upset anyone here. I ask to think about what I just said, though. I got these conclusions from YOUR words. Life is funny. Sure bets are seldom easy, and you should never assume anything.
I also found it interesting how the fact that a young girl was being abducted has come up and how she seems to be the incentive behind many of those willing to include your firearms in the situation so quickly. What if she was a 300 pound man? A woman known for suffering from mental illness, or a young Gay boy from the High School? Somehow I don't picture any of those who were willing to gallop in on their white horses to save the young girl with guns drawn doing the same for these people. Other factors come into play, moral issues or predertemined opinions that could change one's willingness to commit to involving themselves in a situation that deals with strangers. I'm NOT saying it's right, but it is a fact of life. I may be wrong, and if I am I apologise but here's my point: If you can take the time to assess a situation, find out who the major players are and decide whether or not you will A). Render Aide and B). the extent at which you will help that person you can certainly take the time needed to figure out if the use of a firearm was needed at the very moment you decide to involve yourself.
This incident did not happen in a dark alley way at midnight in some bad neighborhood. This was in the front of the local K-Mart in broad daylight. Visability is CLEAR. It's easy to see the people involved in the mock kidnapping. No weapon is visable. Nothing resembling a weapon ever shows itself. The Perps are skinny kids.
So, all I am doing here is voicing my opinion. It takes allot more than a screaming little girl and a couple of skinny boys to bring me to the point where I would even think about drawing a gun. Why? BECAUSE I AM NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. It is their job to dive into situations like that head first and because of the nature of their job, they NEED to treat every situation as a life/death issue. They have guns to protect and serve, and those guns are only a part of the list of tools they have to accomplish their jobs. I don't think highly about people who rely on their guns for courage. I pity those who depend on crutch like a CCW to define the person they are. I choose to approach firearm ownership as a privilage and a responsibility and I try to define myself through my actions. I can't say that I do so all of the time, but I try.
I am not here to tell you that I feel superior to anyone else here, I don't. Everyone has the right to choose how they conduct themselves and handle the responsibility of owning a gun. There's nothing glamorous about how I veiw firearms and I don't think that my way is the only way or nessesarily the "right" way, but it is how I see it. There are the criminals that want to do good people harm, and there are Law Enforcement Agencies established to deter such things from happening and somewhere inbetween I own a gun to take up the slack. I see my defensive guns as just that: defensive. They are not "Assault" weapons, they are defensive tools.
The ONLY way those kids could have been shot by mistake while pulling off their little stunt is if someone took OFFESIVE action against them with firearms. How can I be so sure about this statement?
BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T ARMED!!!
Not all situations will be like this. Of course they won't. But drawing your weapon for every little thing is foolish and irresponisble. What if you DIDN'T have a CCW licence and carried a weapon for your own personal safety and for the safety of your loved ones, would you be so quick to draw it on those kids?
What's the difference? After all you were saving this girl from a statistically sure death at the hands of her statistically armed abductors right? Ah, but now you have something to risk. You are outside of the law. You could have your right to own firearms taken away from you. You could face jail time just for having it in your possesion, never mind if you had to actually use it. No, but it is a young girls life were talking about here right? Of course you'd draw your weapon just as you said you would because those abductors are probably (statisically) armed and you'd best get the drop on them etc. etc. etc.
Now take the young girl out of the equasion and replace her with a 16 year old male Chinese exchange student.
I have no problem helping out a stranger in need. I can truthfully say that I am not the type of person who believes that what happens to people I don't know doesn't concern me. I believe in treating everyone the same, regardless of who or what they are. They are all the same; people that needed help.
That said, I am not at all ashamed to say that there is a difference in the extent I am willing to go to help a total stranger as opposed to my friends and family. They are in a catagory by themselves and I do hold their well being HIGH above anyone elses. Under them is anyone else. I will treat that girl as I would the shop owner down the street, or the lady behind the counter of the mini-mart or the Marilyn Manson fan with his colored contact lenses. My help is my help, and I do have levels to the amount of help I will give like I just said, but everyone in the "Anyone Else" catagory gets treated the same.
I wouldn't draw before establishing a DEFINATE threat in a situation like that, not for the Hot Hollywood actress, the girl in the vid, or anyone else I didn't know personally for that matter. For me it's an issue of self dicipline and control. But that is my personal reason.
OH gentlemen, all of you for drawing your weapon while approaching a situation like the one in question:
Are you saying if you weren't armed at that moment you wouldn't help? I have often said that firearms, handguns in particular are mere tools. They are not sources of power nor are they instruments to carry out moral actions. Handguns are no replacement for courage. They are there to sever a purpose, and that purpose is to defend. In the case of a CCW gun, the handgun in question is NOT intended to be an offensive weapon, it is a defensive tool.
I personally would render aide regardless if I was armed at the time or not, and even if I were armed at the time, I do not feel the level of danger while approaching the situation to assess the problem high enough to warrent drawing my gun. IF, and only if the situation escalated to the point where the perps were to produce a weapon of their own, or took an action that needed an instant response on my part would I ever resort to my gun, or any other weapon for that matter. What is it? Are you people afraid to approach a situation like that on your own unarmed? Surely a firearm would give you the upper hand in a situation where the presence of another weapon hasn't been established, and in real life there is no such thing as a "Fair" fight (in other words you should always strive to get the advantage in any confrontation) but drawing your gun before knowing what is going on is pre-mature, and quite frankly a little cowardly in my opinion. It goes back to what I was saying about how a firearm should never be a substitute for courage.
It doesn't take a pshchologist to see that people like mattro rely on their guns as a source of reinforced security. I'm speaking metally, not physically. Here you are, all galliant in wanting to save this little girl from being abducted, but harboring thoughts like :"
"
Again...how would you react to this exact same situation if you weren't armed at the time?
Would you stand by and hope someone else was armed?
This "weekend hero" metality is silly. You want to be a Hero, but only at the least amount of risk to yourself and only if the odds were stacked in your favor. Forgive me if you are offended by what I am saying here, it is truly not my intention to anger or upset anyone here. I ask to think about what I just said, though. I got these conclusions from YOUR words. Life is funny. Sure bets are seldom easy, and you should never assume anything.
I also found it interesting how the fact that a young girl was being abducted has come up and how she seems to be the incentive behind many of those willing to include your firearms in the situation so quickly. What if she was a 300 pound man? A woman known for suffering from mental illness, or a young Gay boy from the High School? Somehow I don't picture any of those who were willing to gallop in on their white horses to save the young girl with guns drawn doing the same for these people. Other factors come into play, moral issues or predertemined opinions that could change one's willingness to commit to involving themselves in a situation that deals with strangers. I'm NOT saying it's right, but it is a fact of life. I may be wrong, and if I am I apologise but here's my point: If you can take the time to assess a situation, find out who the major players are and decide whether or not you will A). Render Aide and B). the extent at which you will help that person you can certainly take the time needed to figure out if the use of a firearm was needed at the very moment you decide to involve yourself.
This incident did not happen in a dark alley way at midnight in some bad neighborhood. This was in the front of the local K-Mart in broad daylight. Visability is CLEAR. It's easy to see the people involved in the mock kidnapping. No weapon is visable. Nothing resembling a weapon ever shows itself. The Perps are skinny kids.
So, all I am doing here is voicing my opinion. It takes allot more than a screaming little girl and a couple of skinny boys to bring me to the point where I would even think about drawing a gun. Why? BECAUSE I AM NOT A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER. It is their job to dive into situations like that head first and because of the nature of their job, they NEED to treat every situation as a life/death issue. They have guns to protect and serve, and those guns are only a part of the list of tools they have to accomplish their jobs. I don't think highly about people who rely on their guns for courage. I pity those who depend on crutch like a CCW to define the person they are. I choose to approach firearm ownership as a privilage and a responsibility and I try to define myself through my actions. I can't say that I do so all of the time, but I try.
I am not here to tell you that I feel superior to anyone else here, I don't. Everyone has the right to choose how they conduct themselves and handle the responsibility of owning a gun. There's nothing glamorous about how I veiw firearms and I don't think that my way is the only way or nessesarily the "right" way, but it is how I see it. There are the criminals that want to do good people harm, and there are Law Enforcement Agencies established to deter such things from happening and somewhere inbetween I own a gun to take up the slack. I see my defensive guns as just that: defensive. They are not "Assault" weapons, they are defensive tools.
The ONLY way those kids could have been shot by mistake while pulling off their little stunt is if someone took OFFESIVE action against them with firearms. How can I be so sure about this statement?
BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T ARMED!!!
Not all situations will be like this. Of course they won't. But drawing your weapon for every little thing is foolish and irresponisble. What if you DIDN'T have a CCW licence and carried a weapon for your own personal safety and for the safety of your loved ones, would you be so quick to draw it on those kids?
What's the difference? After all you were saving this girl from a statistically sure death at the hands of her statistically armed abductors right? Ah, but now you have something to risk. You are outside of the law. You could have your right to own firearms taken away from you. You could face jail time just for having it in your possesion, never mind if you had to actually use it. No, but it is a young girls life were talking about here right? Of course you'd draw your weapon just as you said you would because those abductors are probably (statisically) armed and you'd best get the drop on them etc. etc. etc.
Now take the young girl out of the equasion and replace her with a 16 year old male Chinese exchange student.
I have no problem helping out a stranger in need. I can truthfully say that I am not the type of person who believes that what happens to people I don't know doesn't concern me. I believe in treating everyone the same, regardless of who or what they are. They are all the same; people that needed help.
That said, I am not at all ashamed to say that there is a difference in the extent I am willing to go to help a total stranger as opposed to my friends and family. They are in a catagory by themselves and I do hold their well being HIGH above anyone elses. Under them is anyone else. I will treat that girl as I would the shop owner down the street, or the lady behind the counter of the mini-mart or the Marilyn Manson fan with his colored contact lenses. My help is my help, and I do have levels to the amount of help I will give like I just said, but everyone in the "Anyone Else" catagory gets treated the same.
I wouldn't draw before establishing a DEFINATE threat in a situation like that, not for the Hot Hollywood actress, the girl in the vid, or anyone else I didn't know personally for that matter. For me it's an issue of self dicipline and control. But that is my personal reason.
"They was only kicking his brains in, I didn't see no need to involve a weapon." Hands and brains are the deadliest weapons you can have on your person. You can't use most weapons without the former and they won't be effective without the latter.
Is it appropriate to draw a weapon on a person using deadly force on another? If so, consider. Kidnapping is by the very definition of the word a crime of violence. You cannot kidnap someone without using force or the threat of it. This is ultimately backed with lethal force. Kidnappings usually end in in rape, murder, mutilation, or some combination thereof. Most people would not think of responding to an attempted murder or rape without a weapon ready, if they had it on hand.
Yes, grabbing their plate and calling 911 is an excellent idea. You should try to do this either way. But the police are as human as the rest of us and they don't always get their man, or in time. If I have the opportunity to stop a kidnapping COLD, I won't miss it. There are potential consequences. I will consider and plan for them.
"Why on earth would you confront people who appeared to be committing a kidnapping without drawing your gun???" is not the equivalent of "I would not help if I didn't have one." If you had a better tool at hand, why would you not use it? And calling someone a cowardly, insecure, weekend hero for expressing that sentiment is silly, stupid, and mean.
Which tells me that some skinny kids are kidnapping someone without visible weapons, not that it is a fake. You are willing to allow the perp's physical appearance into play as you challenge our physical stereotypes by asking if we would save 300 pound women or chinese teens. Skinny kids can kidnap people just like burly adults, just with more difficulty.
Dear FS2K
Please sir read my earlyer post. I don't believe I (for example) restricted my response to any age, race, gender, rligion, ... ad nauseum. If one can help another one should if that help is best accomplished by dialing 911 great, if help requiers first aid do it. Assistance is not always at the point of a gun nor should be. I believe "Tactics" are secondary to the assesed circumstance or am I mistaken. Perhaps I am on the wrong thread????
Please sir read my earlyer post. I don't believe I (for example) restricted my response to any age, race, gender, rligion, ... ad nauseum. If one can help another one should if that help is best accomplished by dialing 911 great, if help requiers first aid do it. Assistance is not always at the point of a gun nor should be. I believe "Tactics" are secondary to the assesed circumstance or am I mistaken. Perhaps I am on the wrong thread????
This is why when I am off-duty I don't get any more involved than to be a good witness. I will intervene in the case of a uniformed LEO needing assistance in a fight or something, but that's it.
Identifying ALL the "players" is very important. This scenario is a nightmare in more ways than one.
Biker
Identifying ALL the "players" is very important. This scenario is a nightmare in more ways than one.
Biker
Hey Guys.
It's encouraging to see that I am not alone in my way of thinking.
Zespectre
I agree. This forum allows us the time to consider thing we wouldn't have time to if faced with such a situation is real life/real time, and this is a very valuable thing.
Ernest
And THAT is the key point to this situation as far as I am concerned. Any help is better than no help at all, and there are situations where information can make up the difference in justice being served, or a crime going unsolved.
Gentlemen, it is clear to me that many of you have a different view on the issue and the level of involvement you feel you are responsible for. My opinion is just that; and opinion and even if I am set in my way of thinking it doesn't mean that I don't think you have the right to feel as strongly about your stance on the issue as I do. I am NOT trying to persuede anyone to start thinking like I do. You have your opinion and I can and do respect that. IS it so hard for you people to take that there are individuals like myself out there who believe in having discipline when it comes to drawing your firearm, and that the factors of this discipline changes from when the situation involves total strangers as opposed to being directly involved in the situation yourself?
There, I've said it. Discipline. Self Control. Responsibility. The incident at K-Mart with these kids didn't involve firearms or a citizen approaching these people with a drawn weapon or anything like that. The reasons for this are infinate, but help was rendered, the people involved were apprehended and no one was the worst for wear, all without a gun ever being a part of the scene.
It's encouraging to see that I am not alone in my way of thinking.
Zespectre
I agree. This forum allows us the time to consider thing we wouldn't have time to if faced with such a situation is real life/real time, and this is a very valuable thing.
Ernest
And THAT is the key point to this situation as far as I am concerned. Any help is better than no help at all, and there are situations where information can make up the difference in justice being served, or a crime going unsolved.
Gentlemen, it is clear to me that many of you have a different view on the issue and the level of involvement you feel you are responsible for. My opinion is just that; and opinion and even if I am set in my way of thinking it doesn't mean that I don't think you have the right to feel as strongly about your stance on the issue as I do. I am NOT trying to persuede anyone to start thinking like I do. You have your opinion and I can and do respect that. IS it so hard for you people to take that there are individuals like myself out there who believe in having discipline when it comes to drawing your firearm, and that the factors of this discipline changes from when the situation involves total strangers as opposed to being directly involved in the situation yourself?
There, I've said it. Discipline. Self Control. Responsibility. The incident at K-Mart with these kids didn't involve firearms or a citizen approaching these people with a drawn weapon or anything like that. The reasons for this are infinate, but help was rendered, the people involved were apprehended and no one was the worst for wear, all without a gun ever being a part of the scene.
no, the quote before that was from someone who HAD a gun on them and wouldn't have drawn it, while confronting the bg's.
what if the action they took was to shoot you in the face? I think it would be very hard for someone to shoot ME in the face if my gun was pointed at them already. And if the guy I did have at gunpint was a kidnapper I GUARANTEE worries about a lawsuit would be non-existent in my mind.
Noone has said anything about drawing without knowing what is going on...it's a KIDNAPPING. Now what do you do? What....do you do.....
I would call 911.
yes. i wouldn't put out a fire with no water, wouldn't build a house with no hammer and I wouldn't stop a crime without some sort of advantage and a .45cal tool. If I were unarmed I would use the same mentality they use on planes when you need oxygen. Save yourself so you can save others. I would not recklessly intervene, disadvantaged, but rather collect as much info as possible and monitor the situation as best as possible, without getting killed.
Hopefully a mall ninja would appear and wax the guys with a Sig 552, front grip, laser sight and 14 30-round mags cuz you never know.....then I would be just a witness and not a defendant.
*snip*
cops aren't always around. and where I live, patrol cops are not elite SWAT, they are fresh-faced kids I could outshoot left-handed.
*snip*
The laws in many states are very clear that DEADLY force can be used to come to the aid of another human being. That's how important it is for ppl to help one another, especially if they are getting kidnapped.
Kidnapping is not a little thing. The thread is not about whipping out your gun at every little thing, it's a pretty specific situation that considering the facts at the time it is happening, is draw-worthy IMO.
A person, over someone shoulders, has a pillow case over their head and the guys are headed out the door to who knows where....what sort of DEFINATE threat do you need to see or hear?
I would never worry about being charged with a crime for drawing my gun in a situation like that. I have been "involved" with the legal system and it's a loooooooooooooooong way from questioning to arrest to arraignment to prelimary hearings to trial to conviction to sentencing.
I don't know what to tell you if you think you will make through that whole system just for pulling your gun on a hoax kidnapping ESPECIALLY after NUMEROUS women have been abducted and butchered from similar types of establishments.
I challenge anyone who has stopped a fake crime by drawing their weapon to post the sentence they received from the judge.
It's just not reality. The law is based on reasonableness and I'd take my chances in court anyday against a bunch of punk kids.
Feanaro and Grey sky
Feanaro,
You ALWAYS have a choice as to how much you are willing to involve yourself into any situation, no? How far are you willing to go to "Help"? When does rendering aide become a rescue? As I've said, I have a limit to how much I am willing to involve myself into a situation involving strangers and I have no problem in saying so. In the case you brought up, (which is TOTALLY different to the one being discussed) where a stranger was getting their head kicked in by a couple of guys (Totally different than a couple of kids grabbing a girl in broad daylight in the parking lot of K-Mart) I have the option of changing my actions to suit the situation accordingly. Your point it moot.
There is a need to assess each and every situation individually and not treat every situation with the same intesity and dedication as a Law Enforcement Officer is TRAINED to do. Law Enforcement Officers have a job to do and opperate on a different level than the rest of us. They don't have the choice of whether they want to put themselves in harms way, we do.
Hey, if you feel as though it is your responsibility to help the helpless and fight the forces of darkeness on a full time basis...well...that's your problem. That isn't realistic to me. I will help if an when I can, but not with a blind devtion of some sort of super hero. I know the idea of being an armed avenger is appealing to allot of people, I just happen to NOT be one of them.
No one, not the Courts, the Police, the Church, your Country or even the stranger you descide to put yourself in harms way for expects you to risk your life everytime you see a potential crime being commited. It's certainly a glorious way of looking at things, but in the end, unrealistic. If you are one of those people who feel that strongly about being a crime fighter I suggest applying to your local Police dept the next time they advertise a need for new Cadets.
Grey Sky, I totally agree with your outlook, and feel the same as you do. It's a good thing to decide that you will always do what you can for others: and to decide that
You will always call 911 whenever you witness a crime or accident
That you will do your best to remember details of what you had seen and take down things like licence numbers, the Make/Model/and color of any vehicles involved, the color of clothing, height and description of anyone who was there and so forth...
And to stick around till the police come to help them in anyway you can,
However...to decide to approach every situation you come across with a drawn weapon is a totally different thing.
I AM NOT A POLICE OFFICER. Having a gun does not give me the right to involve myself and my gun in crimes or suspected crimes I know nothing about and that doesn't involve me directly. Just as I believe I have the right to defend myself and my loved ones by any means possible, I believe that there is a line between my responsibilities as a responisble citizen and the responsibilities of those in Law Enforcement who are paid to protect us.
Feanaro,
You ALWAYS have a choice as to how much you are willing to involve yourself into any situation, no? How far are you willing to go to "Help"? When does rendering aide become a rescue? As I've said, I have a limit to how much I am willing to involve myself into a situation involving strangers and I have no problem in saying so. In the case you brought up, (which is TOTALLY different to the one being discussed) where a stranger was getting their head kicked in by a couple of guys (Totally different than a couple of kids grabbing a girl in broad daylight in the parking lot of K-Mart) I have the option of changing my actions to suit the situation accordingly. Your point it moot.
There is a need to assess each and every situation individually and not treat every situation with the same intesity and dedication as a Law Enforcement Officer is TRAINED to do. Law Enforcement Officers have a job to do and opperate on a different level than the rest of us. They don't have the choice of whether they want to put themselves in harms way, we do.
Hey, if you feel as though it is your responsibility to help the helpless and fight the forces of darkeness on a full time basis...well...that's your problem. That isn't realistic to me. I will help if an when I can, but not with a blind devtion of some sort of super hero. I know the idea of being an armed avenger is appealing to allot of people, I just happen to NOT be one of them.
No one, not the Courts, the Police, the Church, your Country or even the stranger you descide to put yourself in harms way for expects you to risk your life everytime you see a potential crime being commited. It's certainly a glorious way of looking at things, but in the end, unrealistic. If you are one of those people who feel that strongly about being a crime fighter I suggest applying to your local Police dept the next time they advertise a need for new Cadets.
Grey Sky, I totally agree with your outlook, and feel the same as you do. It's a good thing to decide that you will always do what you can for others: and to decide that
You will always call 911 whenever you witness a crime or accident
That you will do your best to remember details of what you had seen and take down things like licence numbers, the Make/Model/and color of any vehicles involved, the color of clothing, height and description of anyone who was there and so forth...
And to stick around till the police come to help them in anyway you can,
However...to decide to approach every situation you come across with a drawn weapon is a totally different thing.
I AM NOT A POLICE OFFICER. Having a gun does not give me the right to involve myself and my gun in crimes or suspected crimes I know nothing about and that doesn't involve me directly. Just as I believe I have the right to defend myself and my loved ones by any means possible, I believe that there is a line between my responsibilities as a responisble citizen and the responsibilities of those in Law Enforcement who are paid to protect us.
I had some dinner, took a shower and had some time to think about this more.
Allot can be said about taking a step back sometimes to look at the big picture.
Doing so made me realize that some of us here were just rattling off on what they'd do if faced with the situation at K-Mart, and by doing so didn't really take the time to think about everything that could happen in a setting like that. The thought of being a hero appeals to allot of people and there's nothing wrong with that. It's all cool when it's in a hypothetical situation and we all can chime in on what we'd do had we been there.
I have to realize that what people say here on the internet doesn't nessesarily translate to what they would do in real life. Every one would prefer to present themselves in a positive way as opposed to negative, and being a Hero is doing just that. The typical responses were as expected, and that's cool. Here on the discussion board is the ideal place to bring up stuff like that when you think about it. No one's life is in danger, and no one is in danger of causing anyone else harm. And that is the most important issue to me here; the safety of others.
I'm just a straight forward guy and I just choose to keep things real. But I realize that some of us here aren't like that all the time and that's fine. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the board as a place to let loose and say whatever's on your mind at the time. I don't feel that my outlook to firearms is unique.
It only makes sense to assess a situation as much as possible before getting involved and putting yourself in harms way.
For those who said that they wouldn't hesitate to stop a kidknapping if it were in their power, I think your feelings are universal, however the means in which you would go about it differs from one person to the next, and the bottom line with this situation is;
THIS WAS NOT A KIDKNAPPING!
This scenerio could be a very important learning experience, or, it could be brushed off as just another incident that happened to someone somewhere else that didn't involve you. Any actions stated here by anyone is Hypothetical. We weren't faced with it in real life, so we could say that we'd do whatever it was that we would feel would be the ideal response.
I want to make it clear that my participation to this thread was not to argue, or debate whether or not your hypothetical response is right or wrong. I simply wanted to voice my concern as to how many people here have such a lax ideal on the most basic thing as drawing your sidearm in a situation that didn't involve yourself directly, and how I felt such a situation could be approached when wanting to help. Someone asked if I would base my assessment of the situation based on how the perps looked, and to answer that I would have to say "YES". Based on THIS scenerio, based on what I saw on the video and based on my own gut feeling definately YES. Does it mean that it will be the same for every situation? Of course not, but no two situations are the same. It was in broad daylight in the K-Mart parking lot and I'm pretty sure I would have been very able to see the situation clearly. What should always remain the same in every situation involving firearms is the special care you should always be careful of your surroundings and the potential collateral damage you could cause if ever forced to fire your gun. I just believe in always checking my background as well as immediate surroundings for safety's sake.
So, if you truly choose to approach every situation the same way, that is, weapon drawn and such I'm not here to criticize that. I don't expect anything that I say to change that. Just because I choose a different approach to things than you doesn't mean that I think there's anything wrong with you personally. I just don't agree with your methods, that's all. I don't have anything against you, and truly feel that you have every right to your opinion. Oddly enough I thank you for bringing up such a great topic to discuss, and for discussing things in a (mostly) calm and thought out way. Heeheehee.
So have a great weekend everyone. Stay safe.
Allot can be said about taking a step back sometimes to look at the big picture.
Doing so made me realize that some of us here were just rattling off on what they'd do if faced with the situation at K-Mart, and by doing so didn't really take the time to think about everything that could happen in a setting like that. The thought of being a hero appeals to allot of people and there's nothing wrong with that. It's all cool when it's in a hypothetical situation and we all can chime in on what we'd do had we been there.
I have to realize that what people say here on the internet doesn't nessesarily translate to what they would do in real life. Every one would prefer to present themselves in a positive way as opposed to negative, and being a Hero is doing just that. The typical responses were as expected, and that's cool. Here on the discussion board is the ideal place to bring up stuff like that when you think about it. No one's life is in danger, and no one is in danger of causing anyone else harm. And that is the most important issue to me here; the safety of others.
I'm just a straight forward guy and I just choose to keep things real. But I realize that some of us here aren't like that all the time and that's fine. Again, I don't think there's anything wrong with using the board as a place to let loose and say whatever's on your mind at the time. I don't feel that my outlook to firearms is unique.
It only makes sense to assess a situation as much as possible before getting involved and putting yourself in harms way.
For those who said that they wouldn't hesitate to stop a kidknapping if it were in their power, I think your feelings are universal, however the means in which you would go about it differs from one person to the next, and the bottom line with this situation is;
THIS WAS NOT A KIDKNAPPING!
This scenerio could be a very important learning experience, or, it could be brushed off as just another incident that happened to someone somewhere else that didn't involve you. Any actions stated here by anyone is Hypothetical. We weren't faced with it in real life, so we could say that we'd do whatever it was that we would feel would be the ideal response.
I want to make it clear that my participation to this thread was not to argue, or debate whether or not your hypothetical response is right or wrong. I simply wanted to voice my concern as to how many people here have such a lax ideal on the most basic thing as drawing your sidearm in a situation that didn't involve yourself directly, and how I felt such a situation could be approached when wanting to help. Someone asked if I would base my assessment of the situation based on how the perps looked, and to answer that I would have to say "YES". Based on THIS scenerio, based on what I saw on the video and based on my own gut feeling definately YES. Does it mean that it will be the same for every situation? Of course not, but no two situations are the same. It was in broad daylight in the K-Mart parking lot and I'm pretty sure I would have been very able to see the situation clearly. What should always remain the same in every situation involving firearms is the special care you should always be careful of your surroundings and the potential collateral damage you could cause if ever forced to fire your gun. I just believe in always checking my background as well as immediate surroundings for safety's sake.
So, if you truly choose to approach every situation the same way, that is, weapon drawn and such I'm not here to criticize that. I don't expect anything that I say to change that. Just because I choose a different approach to things than you doesn't mean that I think there's anything wrong with you personally. I just don't agree with your methods, that's all.
I don't have anything against you, and truly feel that you have every right to your opinion. Oddly enough I thank you for bringing up such a great topic to discuss, and for discussing things in a (mostly) calm and thought out way. Heeheehee. So have a great weekend everyone. Stay safe.
OK now how about tactics?
From the video it looked like this event was very fast. Bag over head straight out the door and into getaway vehical. Dosn't seem like there was much time to react by anyone wittnessing the event. Even geting a plate # would be difficult if not imposible. Taking a shot out of the question with so many colaterals present. looks real looks real bad.
From the video it looked like this event was very fast. Bag over head straight out the door and into getaway vehical. Dosn't seem like there was much time to react by anyone wittnessing the event. Even geting a plate # would be difficult if not imposible. Taking a shot out of the question with so many colaterals present. looks real looks real bad.
Without a gun, I would be very reluctant to try and stop the crime in progress. I would use my cell phone and trail in my vehicle to help, but knowing they are most likely armed, I would not interfere if I was not carrying. This is why I try to carry most of the time.
WRONG - by pulling this weapon to intervene in a felony (in defense of the girl), it could quickly become an offenseive weapon. you're going on the offense to defend someone.
When someone says they will do something, you guys call it 'hero' or 'john wayne'. I called the lack of action 'cowardess'. My goal would be to stop a crime, being a hero is nowhere on my top priorities. I dont put my gun on everyday thinking maybe today I can be a hero. I put it on thinking, maybe today this gun will give me the odds to reverse the desires of some puke to prey on innocent people (or me).
You are 100% right about the risk and the odds. duh.
No i'm not
no I can't.
By the way, I would equally assist if it were being perpetrated against a old frail women, a young gay man, or a chinease exchange student (the options you gave). The 300# guy should be able to help himself, but if he can't, I guess I would.
My self discipline and control would have my weapon out immediately when I cath 2 bg in the middle of a violent felony.
If I wasn't armed, I would choose a different avenue to help, rather than direct confrontation. At the minimum I would call 911, get the license plate number, the direction of travel and be a good witness.
I don't know about this "hero" stuff, but yes, I think most sane and reasonable people would want to stack the odds in their favor. Intervening in a potential deadly force situation is dangerous enough and somebody who takes unnecessary risks while doing so is just plain foolish. It smacks of somebody with too much machismo for their own good. I'm not superman, I don't play him on TV and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
A gun is not a source of power ???? It's not an instrument to carry out something moral?? Last time I checked, the gun is a souce of tremendous power, to either the good guy, or the bg. If the gun lets me defend someone else (I belive to be a moral act), then it is an instrument to carry out a moral act.
yes. - what are you some kind of hero, or a john wayne?
more words of wisdom from a guy with 1500 posts. you're right!! the gun does give me a metnal sense of security when trying to stop a kidnapping or any other violent crime. If I enter condition yellow or red withOUT a gun, I feel mentally insecure.
Do most people go through the trouble of ccw becasue the gun offers NO sense of mental security???
Man you're good.
If it wasn't a hoax do you think it would have went this easily?
Who said anything about handling all situations the same, and drawing a weapon everytime??? I don't in any of our replies that being said????
I don't care where I am or who I am with or what time of day it is or who is around or what the weather is....If I see someone get attacked from behind, their face covered with a sack, grabbed up, slung over someones shoulder
and the guys sprint away through a parking lot, as if to make it LOOK like a kidnapping, you will be confronted by me and my gun. That's the video, that's the scenario, that's how I'd react. Joke, not a joke, hidden camera show, whatever.
w/o a gun I would hesitate and formulate a plan to gain the advantage I did not have while gunless (get some help, call 911, push shopping carts into their shins).
If I walk into a bank and pretend I want to rob it, can any of you (fs2k) tell me whether it matters that IT WAS NOT A BANK ROBBERY? I might not get the same amount of time in jail but a conviction of some kind is a certainty.
People get killed in joke/pretend situations by cops, and I would imagine by civilians. Cops shoot people all the time because it LOOKED like the guy had a gun. Not all die and that's great. Hopefully it teaches them a lesson to not draw down on cops using a hair brush.
and the guys sprint away through a parking lot, as if to make it LOOK like a kidnapping, you will be confronted by me and my gun. That's the video, that's the scenario, that's how I'd react. Joke, not a joke, hidden camera show, whatever.
w/o a gun I would hesitate and formulate a plan to gain the advantage I did not have while gunless (get some help, call 911, push shopping carts into their shins).
If I walk into a bank and pretend I want to rob it, can any of you (fs2k) tell me whether it matters that IT WAS NOT A BANK ROBBERY? I might not get the same amount of time in jail but a conviction of some kind is a certainty.
People get killed in joke/pretend situations by cops, and I would imagine by civilians. Cops shoot people all the time because it LOOKED like the guy had a gun. Not all die and that's great. Hopefully it teaches them a lesson to not draw down on cops using a hair brush.
We are allowed permits for SELF-protection, and one exception:
"I demand laws around this issue protecting the law abiding citizen."
We have laws to protect the law-abiding citizens - including stupid citizens who play dumb games but don't need to be killed for it.
We are allowed permits for SELF-protection. The rest is the job for cops, save only one: a violent felony that will result in the immiment death or serious energy of a victim - then a citizen can intervene.
If you want to stop crime become a cop.
"I demand laws around this issue protecting the law abiding citizen."
We have laws to protect the law-abiding citizens - including stupid citizens who play dumb games but don't need to be killed for it.
We are allowed permits for SELF-protection. The rest is the job for cops, save only one: a violent felony that will result in the immiment death or serious energy of a victim - then a citizen can intervene.
If you want to stop crime become a cop.
Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family to defend the likes of Sheehan, Hillery, Rosie, Fienstein, et all? Ever think of what happens if the bad guy survives it and files a lawsuit or a fruity DA files charges against this "vigilante with a gun"? What happens to you and your family and for what, so these hipppie liberals can go on about their merry way? To be honest, if I seen Rosie O'donnel getting a bag tossed over her head in a Kame-apart parking lot, well, I don't recall ever having seen it happen and go about my business.
I'd hope you arent' so nieve to know that there are lawyers out there that will take away your financial independence on behalf of the "vicitm of society" you shot as well as prosecuters out there that will do everything in their power to take a "dangerous vigilante" off the streets. Calling 911 and providing details to the cops is as far as I'm going to go for strangers. Family is a different matter but that's not the debate here.
I'd hope you arent' so nieve to know that there are lawyers out there that will take away your financial independence on behalf of the "vicitm of society" you shot as well as prosecuters out there that will do everything in their power to take a "dangerous vigilante" off the streets. Calling 911 and providing details to the cops is as far as I'm going to go for strangers. Family is a different matter but that's not the debate here.
You're either willing to intervene on behave of a third party or you're not. To suggest looking the other way and pretending that you didn't even see anything while somebody is being kidnapped, raped or assaulted because you recognize they're of a different political leaning than yourself is not just utterly wrong... it's blatantly offensive. I believe that such an action can only be called morally bankrupt and an embarassment to responsible gun ownership.