Can't just blast away!!!!!!

USMCgrunt: Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family
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I have seen very VERY few charges brought on a law abiding citizen defending an innocent person against a blatanly evil person under perilous circumstances. Especially in Indiana. Never seen any in Indiana news.

I think the risk of loosing all that stuff is extremely small if I follow the rules of when deadly force is appropriate, and I act with a cool reasonable head. Escpecially in Indiana. New York and other socialist states is a different story...
 
Why don't the screamers here read the posts, mine for one, the law is clear that you can intervene under certain circumstances. However, the situation that was described at the start of the thread, doesn't come close. Why? It was not a violent felony imminently about to result in the death or ser. injury of a victim. It was a joke.
You're sorry it didn't result in the death of these people?

The law worked fine in this case.
 
How could you live with yourself if you stood there while that girl was being kidnapped and you did nothing???

The video tape shows a kidnapping, not a prank. Whether it is legal to act is irrelevant to me. It is morally required! If I were to be caught in such a no-win situation, I would hope to do the moral thing, and if that conflicts with that which is legal, I would take the consequences.
 
You're ignoring reality - it wasn't but a joke. And no one shot them. WHAT is the problem?

Were you there? Did people in the store see the video while this was transpiring?

Did they see the event live? If so, did it read "live" as more obviously not the real thing?

If it was seen while happening, could you done less than shoot to get authorities within time to find out what was happening? Did people, in fact do that ?

You weren't there were you? you don't know the answers to those questions do you, but you still think it was OK to have shot them? Even knowing that innocents would have been killed and no crime involved? That's OK, so long as "I am right", huh?

And you're talking about ethics?

Well here's the deal: with that kind of approach, many more innocent people would get killed by innumerable others - who are "RIGHT" - running around shooting with no crime taking place, than the few who might not - (and of which there are either close to no documented cases or none at all: that is, of a CCW who would have prevented a serious and violent crime and could have - but didn't - act).

So, in this case you shouldn't have acted with lethal means, because there was no crime. And generally you're inventing something that doesn't exist: a need to have CCWs shoot in crime situations that do not involve them.

And you're nonetheless attacking all who make it legally consequential for you to shoot is such situations.

Inventing villains to scream about.
 
Wow, so you would be willing to risk your freedom, your right to ever have a firearm again, not to mention your financial well being for both you and your family to defend the likes of Sheehan, Hillery, Rosie, Fienstein, et all? Ever think of what happens if the bad guy survives it and files a lawsuit or a fruity DA files charges against this "vigilante with a gun"? What happens to you and your family and for what, so these hipppie liberals can go on about their merry way? To be honest, if I seen Rosie O'donnel getting a bag tossed over her head in a Kame-apart parking lot, well, I don't recall ever having seen it happen and go about my business.
I'd hope you arent' so nieve to know that there are lawyers out there that will take away your financial independence on behalf of the "vicitm of society" you shot as well as prosecuters out there that will do everything in their power to take a "dangerous vigilante" off the streets. Calling 911 and providing details to the cops is as far as I'm going to go for strangers. Family is a different matter but that's not the debate here.
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My decision process to intervene in the commission of a kidnapping happening right in front me and why I should or should not and is not based upon a fear of a lawyer who might be "out to get me". It is about the moral issue of right and wrong. NOONE deserves to be murdered, kidnapped, or raped.

Anyone with a willingness to standby and watch a person who doesn't necessarily align to their personal political leanings to be kidnapped, raped, and/or murdered...and to do nothing about it, is quite frankly, cowardly and shows a callous disregard for human life.

Whatever legal ramifications that may come afterwards is nothing compared to the personal torment that I personally am not willing to endure for doing nothing in a situation like this. I actually trust the jury of my peers to make the right decision. I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again knowing that I did nothing for that person being kidnapped...even Ms. O'Donnel.
 
Anyone with a willingness to standby and watch a person who doesn't necessarily align to their personal political leanings to be kidnapped, raped, and/or murdered and to do nothing about it, is quite frankly, cowardly and shows a callous disregard for human life.

Whatever legal ramifications that may come afterwards is nothing compared to the personal torment that I am not willing to endure for doing nothing in a situation like this. I actually trust the jury of my peers to make the right decision. I would never be able to look at myself in the mirror again knowing that I did nothing for that person being kidnapped...even Ms. O'Donnel.
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Very well communicated. I have to agree with everything you said, and can you imagine the headline "gun nut saves Rosie from kidnappers" I wonder how she would like eating crow?
 
Corrrect response:

when witnessing a person being kidnapped, shoot that person, the kidnappers will then leave empty handed.

Seriously, I do not belive CCW was intended for folks to go round doing vigilante work. Rather I belive it is as a last defense for your own person. CCW class doesnt have any training for you to go after one that has comitted a crime or to attempt to intervene in any way. You do not have the training for that and the one in trouble may suffer from your actions.

Plate number, car make color, maybe follow with cell phone coverage to LEO.

In Council Bluffs recently a guy CCWing came upon 2 guys threating a guy with knives so CCW guy pulls weapon 2 BGs run off, CCW guy is commended for saving guy. I belive this is how most will play out unless someone gets shot. Then it is open season on who ever shot. Be careful.
 
markj, according to your beliefs that guy in Council Bluffs should not have intervened. He did not have the training, and no ccw instructors advocate that type of action?

It is sad that if it had been you that came up on that crime in progress, you would have done nothing while they murdered the guy (very possible outcome), but at least you would have been a good witness, you could have given the surviving family detail of every knife wound - according to your own words.

or to attempt to intervene in any way.
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You can't have it both ways... :(

People on this board call people like me "Trying to be a hero", what do they call people that sit back and watch a crime because it is not there place?
 
Well, that's easy...and you answered it yourself: they call themselves a good witness.

Seriously, I do not belive CCW was intended for folks to go round doing vigilante work.
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Since when is intervening in a major life-threatening crime being a vigilante? If someone is being kidnapped right in front of you I guess you must wait until they actually cry for help.
 
remember the guy at the end of the bar watching the fat off duty cop beat the female bartender repeatedly?

I would assume that guy did not feel it was his place to intervene. I would assume that guy did not feel he had the proper training.

Did that guy assume if he got involved, the women would be in more danger? Did he assume that no self defense instructor would advocate breaking up a fight wear a guy is beating a women senseless?

If he did, does that make his action right?

I would hate to be that guy and live with the fact that I sat there and watched a women get beat, AND DID NOTHING...:barf:

My parents, wife, kids and friends would be real proud, not to mention the victim.
 
John galt: well said. If something like this happed for REAL to one of my daughters and no one with the means tried to intervene, I would rain hate & discontent on them later.

Liability be d___, this is NOT a mugging, a simple assault, or a purse snatching. This is a crime of violence (even thought staged) until proven otherwise. The time for action is then, not after the escape with the victim has been made.

God help us all if most are going to stand around while this happens.

You just really dont want to know what else I'm thinking. Kitty Genovese (preciously mentioned) is the perfect example of what happens when responsible people do nothing. Ask her family what they think about non-involvement.

Understanding that i risk barring from the forum: I could just puke!
 
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We have a new term "bystander effect".

The circumstances of her murder and the apparent reaction (or lack thereof) of her neighbors were reported by a newspaper article published two weeks later and prompted investigation into the psychological phenomenon that became known as the bystander effect or "Genovese syndrome."[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
 
Kitty Genovese (preciously mentioned) is the perfect example of what happens when responsible people do nothing.
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I am all for my family's safety comes first, BUT if the good guys all stand around doing nothing and repeating the mantra "me and mine only" then the bad guys have won!
 
Pity the Tragedy That Didn't Happen

Well, it was a real pity some of you weren't at the scene of the kids playing the stupid joke: we could have had you saving the day with several people shot/killed, instead of the tragedy that actually occurred: nothing, no crime committed and no one harmed.

Sometimes it all seems just hopeless doesn't it?

Well, not to worry: sooner or later a horribly innocuous situation will present itself, and you'll be able to act on what it seems to you is occurring (instead of what is), and hopefully on that occasion, reality will keep its ugly head out of it.
 
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It is sad that if it had been you that came up on that crime in progress
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Are you sure that is how I would react? You dont know me at all.

He pulled a gun on a knife holder, woopie. He didnt throw down on a gun wielding guy. Isnt the same. Why cant you give me an example that is real and valid. In the kidnapping scenario you would have done what? Shot them? Good luck to you after that event. I can say you will not be able to carry a sharp stick after they get done with you.

Been shot yet kid? Stabbed? Ever disarmed a guy or several guys? Do that then you can come talk to me. Leave the hero stuff to the men, you may get hurt playing Magnum PI.

Gee all you armchair commandos make me fear to walk out of my house.
 
What I'd do:

I would QUICKLY do the following, if I believed I was witnessing a forcible kidnapping:

1.) draw to a safe indoor ready-right carry,

Mvmp5.jpg


(yeah, I know, dramatic SWAT picture, but it was the first one I found at the indoor ready; Weapon on safe, trigger finger straight and off the trigger, muzzle down.

2.) move to a covered and concealed position, intersecting the perpetrators

3.) give strong verbal commands to "get down on the ground now!"


It would be important to keep your weapon at the ready, in case you are engaged by the perpetrators, and be aware that law enforcement / plain clothes officers could be nearby. I would keep giving commands to get down, then I would secure the girl if possible. The moment law enforcement arrives, I'd drop my weapon and show hands, following instructions from there, to avoid any potential confusion.

If the perps continue abducting the girl, I'd fire center mass repeatedly to stop them. I feel that once they get out of the building the chances of stopping them are close to zero, and the chances of that girl surviving are less.

In this case, deadly force would likely be justified, since a reasonable person would fear for the life of the victim. The actions of the perpetrators put the girls life in imminent and demonstrable danger of death. As was said earlier, the victims of these kinds of crimes usually end up dead within 24 to 48 hours, floating in a shallow muddy ditch. I couldn't live with myself if I had the means to stop a kidnapping, and didn't- and it ended with a dead little girl.



You aren't law enforcement, and its not your "duty", but I've got a conscience, and I'm not going to live with something like that for the rest of my life. Weapon at the ready, professionalism with regards to muzzle position, cover and concealment, and strong authoritative commands are the only thing one can do.
 
markj: In the kidnapping scenario you would have done what? Shot them?
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I dont feal like going back through the post to verify, but I don't recall anyone advocating shooting the bad guys (without provocation). Why is it when a pro-intervention type says they would get involved and draw their gun, the 'bystanders' have to instantly say "You gonna shoot them???"

Walking up with gun drawn does not mean we shoot them.

Why does a 'good witness' feel a gun can't be drawn without shooting?

Maybe that is why they are bystanders, they are afraid they will not be able to control themselves.

Most pro-intervention people feel they can draw without shooting.
 
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