Can't just blast away!!!!!!

B

Bob F.

New member
Searched, honest!

Couldn't find a link but CNN is running a piece on a Fake Kidnapping at a K-Mart out west, I think. Store video shows a couple boys put a pillow case over a girls head, pick her up and carry her to waiting vehicle. Even had the FBI involved (whoopee!). Turns out it was a kids camp stunt, "part of a scavenger hunt". Good way to get shot! Remember, things aren't always what they appear.

Stay safe.
Bob
 
Why would you blast away anyway?

Here's the link:
http://www.kmov.com/localnews/stories/kmov_localnews_070724_bridgetonabduction.aa6099d2.html

I don't get it. If you saw that kidnapping, why would you blast away anyway? You're life isn't in danger. They're not hurting the girl. They're not committing homicide, they committing a kidnapping. I thought that you can only shoot to stop a threat to your life, not to be a vigilante and take the law into your own hands. Even the police wouldn't blast away. They would first identify themselves and order the kids to stop. Why do people think that since they have a CCW that they're above the law and can play judge, jury, and executioner?
 
Ernest, check your state laws.

In NH, you can use deadly force to stop the commission of an act of sexual assault or arson, or a kidnapping in progress..

If you saw that kidnapping, why would you blast away anyway? You're life isn't in danger. They're not hurting the girl. They're not committing homicide, they committing a kidnapping.
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Oh, I don't know, because most of that sort of kidnapping, when it's real, ends with the girl's sexually-violated, mutilated body found floating somewhere a week later? Wow, how selfish...

So you only CCW to protect yourself, not to stop an innocent person from being killed as well?

I think you're missing the point.
 
But how do I know for sure that is what's happening? The police wouldn't just blast away, so why should I? I can't imagine any police agency training their officers to shoot first and ask questions later. I think that you're missing the point. What I mean by that is, these kids weren't breaking the law, and if you were there you would have gunned them down.

So you only CCW to protect yourself, not to stop an innocent person from being killed as well?
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I don't feel that I have the training/experience to decide when/if I should get involved (i.e. use deadly force) unless the threat is directed at me. So maybe you're right - maybe I am missing the point.
 
But how do I know for sure that is what's happening? The police wouldn't just blast away, so why should I? I can't imagine any police agency training their officers to shoot first and ask questions later. I think that you're missing the point. What I mean by that is, these kids weren't breaking the law, and if you were there you would have gunned them down.
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Fact is, to any reasonable witness, these kids WERE breaking the law. The very fact that they appeared to be forcibly kidnapping a young girl is the key here.

I think what you are missing is that any reasonable person who witnessed this would have viewed this as a forcible abduction and kidnapping. And rightly so.

Any police officer, or CCW holder for that matter, had they witnessed this should have drawn his/her weapon first and should have then order the boys to stop. Had the boys persisted in abducting the girl, then shooting the boys would have been justified. Joking or not.

Kidnapping in most states is a MAJOR crime and is a justifiable reason for the use of deadly force.
 
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My opinions, and the justifaction for them are as follows:

You might be legally allowed to shoot. New York law allows a person (not just a police officer) to use deadly physical force to prevent a forcible kidnapping.

It is reasonable to assume that the life of a person being forcably kidnapped is in danger. The only two reasons I can think of to forceably kidnap someone is in order to commit a subsequent crime to them, which may include rape or murder; or to ransom them, which often times leads to the victim being killed either way.

It is still not a good idea to start shooting. 1) It may not be a kidnapping. The situation on the video looks pretty unambiguous, it looks like a kidnapping, but it wasn't. New York law allows you to use deadly physical force to prevent a kidnapping, but you are vulnerable to prosecution if you use deadly physical force to stop what you mistakenly thought was a kidnapping. In other circumstances, what you think is a kidnapping might be a parent dragging their bratty child home, a cop making and arrest, another kind of gag, etc.. 2) Shooting may endanger the victim. They may not be in any more danger than if they were sucessfully kidnapped (you hit them accidently, or the kidnappers shoot them on their way out), but they might be in more danger than if you shouted to scare of the kidnappers, or called 911 with the location, direction, and description of the kidnappers. 3) The odds are not in your favor. There's only one of you, and more than one of them. 4) You can't call 911 if you are dead. 5) You are likely not equiped (physically and from a training standpoint) to detain the kidnappers, so the best you can hope for is for them to get scared and run off, there are probably better ways to do that, like maybe by yelling, "Get out of here, I just called the cops and gave them your plate number" (extra points if you really did). 6) A real kidnapping of an adult has to happen fast, and once the bad guys get into their vehicle, it's over (you shouldn't shoot at the vehicle, and you probably) aren't going to stop them from leaving. By the time you can react, be sure what's going on, and draw, it's going to be over. 7) Again, it's not you job to intervene. As such, you do not have the gear, the back up, or the legal protections and authority you need to intervene effectively in such a kidnapping. Note: I agree that if the victim was someone you knew well, some of the above would change, and I can envision circumstances where shooting might be appropriate, but in my case, I also know those situations just aren't going to occur.
 
Not a duty to intervene?

7) Again, it's not you job to intervene. As such, you do not have the gear, the back up, or the legal protections and authority you need to intervene effectively in such a kidnapping.
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Wow. Okay...let us test that logic: you are driving along at the posted speed limit of 70mph when all of a sudden you blow a tire. You seriously wreck your car because you rolled more than three times. You need help getting out of your car because your hanging upside down from your seat belt and are unable to reach the release.

I witnessed all of this since I am in the car behind you.

According to your logic and because I am not an EMT, a firefighter, or a police officer, I am not really all that qualified to render assistance. True enough.

So, do me and my pocket knife just stand there and watch you burn alive? Because I have no backup or authority to intervene?

Hogwash.
 
Not the same thing.

In one case you're deciding to take a life, in the other you're deciding to save a life. Besides cutting a seatbelt doesn’t have the same liability associated with it as shooting someone does. Bad analogy.

You could argue that you were saving the life of the person being kidnapped, but the prosecuting attorney would argue that you wouldn't know for sure that the person was going to be killed, therefore the shooting wasn't justified.

I can't help but agree with Newerguy - I don't think that it's your job to intervene. Just my opinion.
 
I would also add that the law in most states says that you can USE deadly force to stop a kidnapping, that is, you can draw and fire your gun.

If you're worried about whether it's real, remember, all you're trying to do is STOP the kidnapping. Who cares if the perps flee or not, as long as the victim isn't taken away...that's all you need to stop! The law says you can fire your gun. That means you can also shoot out the windshield of the car they're trying to drag the girl into, try to shoot the sidewall of the tires, whatever. If they still get away, they're not going to go far, be able to go fast, or blend into traffic with a car with a blown-out windshield.

ALL you care about is stopping the kidnapping, and the law says you can use your gun if it's obviously a kidnapping. You're covered.

So if you don't want to shoot the perps in case it's something like this, wreck the vehicle they're trying to drag the kidnapee into, and it will still be stopped. You can't do much damage to a car with a handgun, but you can bust the windows and hopefully scare the perps into abandoning their victim and fleeing. Just make sure you have rounds left in case they're armed and try to return fire.

Makes sense to me.
 
I am with Ernest on this...partly...

"There's many a slip between a cup and a lip." To immediately go to your firearm in such a situation would only serve to escalate a situation, not end it.

There are a LOT of measures that could be taken before resorting to drawing your weapon in a situation like this.

Confront the suspected kidknappers. In this case a good shout would have ended the whole ordeal. At this point had either of the kidknappers brandashed their own weapon THEN it would be prudent to draw your weapon.

Say the situation continued, and the kidknappers got the girl into their car and took off. At this point you could pursue the vehicle and take down the licence number. You could call in the position of the suspects vechicle until the authorities got to them.
Once these kids noticed a car chasing them they would either have stopped, or gone to get help themselves.

It isn't a matter of just standing by and letting a crime happen without trying to help, it is a matter of choosing your actions according to the situation before you. I would definately offer my help without even thinking about it. For me it would be a reactive response. But whether I would respond with a weapon BEFORE assessing the situation first I would have to say, NO.

That being said, none of the people involved would have been in any risk of being shot IF no weapon was presented by the people involved. My own well being would be the last thing on my mind in a situation like this. The law can decifer if I was wrong in taking action against people whom I thought was causing another person harm, but again, resorting to my weapon would not happen if no other weapon was involved.
 
Say the situation continued, and the kidknappers got the girl into their car and took off. At this point you could pursue the vehicle and take down the licence number. You could call in the position of the suspects vechicle until the authorities got to them.
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No, THAT will get you in trouble, especially if you cause an accident, or cause the kidnapper's car to have an accident. You'd be smacked with a civil suit from the people in the car that was hit.

Police and judges take a very dim view of civilians trying to engage in pursuits like police.
 
That's true Manedwolf...

You're right. But in this case, there wouldn't have been any chase. Like I said, once these kids noticed they were being followed they would have either pulled over or sought help for themselves. It's easy to assume there would be a high speed chase involved, but again, choosing your actions to fit the situation is key.
 
Police and judges take a very dim view of civilians trying to engage in pursuits like police.
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But it's okay to pull a weapn and start shooting like the police? I think that they [police and judges] would take an even more dim view of a shooting. Also, a civil lawsuit is a lot better to have to deal with than a criminal lawsuit. And I don't think that FS2K was talking about a high-speed dangerous chase. Maybe just following the car at a distance to keep an eye on its location.
 
And to get their licence #

That would be the most important thing...IF the situation went that far to begin with.


Let's face it, most of us would be more than willing to help the perceived victim in such a situation, but there is a line between being a concerned citizen and a law enforcement officer. It surprises me that people would so easily go for their weapon in such a situation that didn't involve them directly, and didn't involve any other weapon being present. I understand the mentality of wanting to be prepared for anything, but jumping to your weapon before adequately assessing the situation is, in my opinion very dangerous. It is because of such "Do-gooder" thinking that these kids ran the risk of getting shot while pulling off their prank. Too many people too willing to resort to deadly force too quickly.

In any case I agree...you Can't just blast away!!!!!!
 
Personally, I carry a sidearm to defend myself and my family...end of list. Somebody is getting attacked, kidnapped, or what have you, I have a cell phone to call 911 and I can fill the role of being a good witness. But as for me jumping in to any altercation that with the intention of potentially using deadly force, sorry ain't gonna happen unless myself or my family is directly threatened. There are WAY too many ambulance chasing lawyers out there that would love to leave my family in the poor-house because I chose to shoot rather than report.
For the victim, sorry this had to happen to you but my famlies well being far outweighs your well being. I'm not going to risk financial ruin or the potential of being incarcerated for a shoot that can be painted by a slick lawyer as a bad shoot that is going to bring about problems for me and my own. I know it sounds selfish and maybe it is but my family comes before an "unarmed victim" that should have armed themselves in the first place.
 
Creature...

Not a duty to intervene?

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Quote:
7) Again, it's not you job to intervene. As such, you do not have the gear, the back up, or the legal protections and authority you need to intervene effectively in such a kidnapping.

Wow. Okay...let us test that logic: you are driving along at the posted speed limit of 70mph when all of a sudden you blow a tire. You seriously wreck your car because you rolled more than three times. You need help getting out of your car because your hanging upside down from your seat belt and are unable to reach the release.

I witnessed all of this since I am in the car behind you.

According to your logic and because I am not an EMT, a firefighter, or a police officer, I am not really all that qualified to render assistance. True enough.

So, do me and my pocket knife just stand there and watch you burn alive? Because I have no backup or authority to intervene?

Hogwash.
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Creature, I can't speak for thenewguy, but I think his list of reasons all could have ended..."With a Gun" or "Armed and ready to use deadly force". For istance:

7) Again, it's not you job to intervene. As such, you do not have the gear, the back up, or the legal protections and authority you need to intervene effectively in such a kidnapping...Armed and willing to use deadly force.

As I said before, there is a line between being a concerned citizen and being a law enforcement officer. It IS a police officers job to intervene. We on the other hand are not obligated to taking action and have a choice whether we want to HELP or not.

I'm not picking you out for an argument creature, I'm just trying to clear things up a little.
 
Sad state of affairs our country is in, when people refuse to intervene in a kidnapping, when the statistics i have heard say nearly 90%+ of them end in murder of the victim. Now all you people will ASK for me to site some evidence. All i can site to you is what my law class instructors taught me in College. Irregardless of the outcome i would intervene, resting easy(my bed, jail bed, casket) that i did everything i could save her/there life.
 
Ernest, You can “What if” your self in circles.....

With today's society, The two guys were F’en up..
I would weigh that today it is more likely that it in fact
was a real kidnapping.

USMCGrunt, No good deed goes unpunished. But, remember
Karma works both ways my friend.. If some one is in need
And you don’t, when you are in need they wont, Ya’know.;)

Its sad when good people sit silent.:(
 
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