Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense

Hi

If you take the ones who disagree and the ones who agree and figure it out, my odds are a lot better than the NRA and the way the rest of the country feels if you look at the amount who actually are in the NRA.

So as far as preaching the majority to me all I can say about that is this:

Considering the amount of LEO in the country and the percentage, there again I don't feel they are in the majority. Reminds me of the movie 'High Noon'.

Or lets take the people who were responsible for the writing of the constitution do you think they were in the majority?

So stick to the thread and not some other feeble attempt to persuade me.

The way President Bush got into office in the first place did not impress me.
Nor do your attacks Lead, pretty feeble about my family and trying to make it look like you care while you are just a, well, nuf said. What is it they say about mob rule?

Lead are you trying to get this thread locked? So anyone who sees your feeble attempt will not be able to answer you?

Harley
 
Again, Harley,

Lets see, how many of you have shot buck shot or seen the damage of the various things we have talked about to the human torso?
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I have extensive experience with shooting buck shot. A long time ago I felt the need to test the effectiveness of buckshot on jugs of water, wet paper, clay, and ultimately ballistic gelatin. Being a hunter, I have shot a lot of critters with buck shot. If you take the time to test your choke and find the appropriate load, and pattern your load I find the real life hunting performance to be adequate, not good just adequate.

Yes, I have seen a lot of torsos shot with buck shot, bird shot, handguns, and rifles. I have seen more knife wounds than I can count.


Steve,

Well written post.

This board, TFL was set up to Promote Responsible Fiream Ownerhip.
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What perceptions did I [Steve] do for Responsible Firearm Ownership with my postings?
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Again, well written, we all need to keep this in mind.

Charles
 
Hi steve and charles

I feel what I have said is responsible and if you can't see that well to bad.

I never advocated a warning shot???I never said half of what the super killers are saying. When the time to pull the trigger on a man or human is there, hope you make the right decision.

But if I am in a bad position regarding approaching someone alone, yes I will fire at the ground if need be, rather than risk having to kill. Been there done it.

Harley
 
Lead Council

Nonsense, You have stated nonsense. I have only talked a better mouse trap for the distance of most shootings (that is a stat that you can find yourselves) You like to attack the persons and throw out small statements that are not condusive to proper arguement.

Big game, soft skinned, and man, at the distance I am talking are toast swiss cheese. Goo and all the other stuff SM said.

Hope this finds you all thinking the same.

Just keep up the talk fellows, I love it. It is always nice to be right when the other side is starting to use ways to convince you when you know, because you have been in places they will never be or never would.

Harley
 
Harley,

You and I have a serious disagreement on the effectiveness of birdshot. I wlll admit that I am jaded based upon my personal medical experience, but I feel that my hunting, and medcal experience correlate well.

I think that birds shot is excellent at contact distances, but not at range. After we conversed I measure my shots in my house the possible shots are 16 feet, 19 feet, and 17 feet, I have one, very unlikely shot of 12 feet. Based upon my training, and reading with Ayoob, Cirillo, Cooper, Farnam, Miculeck, and Smith and my past medical experience I would not choose birds shot. I have #1 and 0 buck. I know my shots and my penetration factors, I have 2 children in the house, yet i am comfortable with my choices.

Charles
 
Charles:
I agree with you, HOWEVER, you also have shots at ranges WITHIN the ranges you posted.

I think that the point is that buckshot is deadly effective at any range up to and including 30' or more (covering most residential applications). Birdshot, while effective at contact ranges up to a few, dramatically loses effectiveness over a few feet.

The point Quinn misses is that buck is more versatile and you don't need to let the attacker get on top of you before your weapon is effective. At that range it might make more sense to carry a taser.
 
I agree with you, HOWEVER, you also have shots at ranges WITHIN the ranges you posted.
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I hope not, based upon the use of cover. Short of being surprised. I have dogs, and alarm system, and I am a light sleeper. I cannot believe that a contact shot is likely, but I could be wrong. I firmly believe that buckshot will work at contact distances, this is based upon experience.

Charles
 
My comments were NOT directed to any one poster, or any particualr posts. I apologize if this is what some interpreted.

I shared MY perceptions, observations and experiences in a general reply to simply state:

There is no Holy Grail, There is no hard fast rule Applies to life, and all that is in it. Including firearms, and loadings.

Besides I was raised right, ;) right here on TFL, we don't attack the poster, we question and learn from the post of others. Having links and references is good if you have them.

See I am one that emails, PMs, calls folks that have real expereinces too. I do a lot of stuff off -forum always have.

I was reading some old posts by Erick Gelhaus , the moderator of this forum, back before TFL closed. I read a recent post of his - interesting to see he has not changed his opinions and advice to folks over the years in regard to the topic he was posting about.

I bug...err...contact Denny Hansen, from time to time, he actually has contacted me once about something. I appreciate and respect his input and sharing. Yes he bascially has the same take on things, he also calls them as he sees them, and if something has really really impressed him, and other trainers...he will say so. He may say - hold-up, gonna test a bit more- before he recommends a change, Denny has good instincts.

I ever get to meet and take a class from Awerbuck, I'm in a heap of trouble :p I figure Rich will show up and help Denny throw spent hulls/ shells at me to make my training experience ' memorable'.

Awerbuck has some interesting insights on shotguns and loadings - scary part is I have doing all my life much of what he suggests. My mentors and elders are the ones I listened to as a brat.

Maybe I can beat Awerbuck shooting skeet...just my luck he is good at that too. :D

We are supposed to all be on the same side , sharing experinces , strength and hope. The idea is to make it home at the end of the day, wake up, repeat.

That drawing of last breath comes soon enough as is.

I know, it is time to drive the Rifle Forum nuts. Someone do a Barrel Break-in cleaning thread. :p

Me...I side with Schumann and Gabe McMillan on this.

Was reading McMillian's old posts again I was... ;)

Regards,

Steve
 
But then again, you don't have to worry about killing your wife or chidren in the other room with bird shot. At distances of 30-40 feet I would not be in a shoot mode yet, not self defense unless I'm under fire at those distances and then I'd be seeking cover and/or distance.
 
Hi Charles

I agree with you on some of the scenerios, I also see that you are doing your home work and based on your experience you are making a decision.
Good.

Now switch to a certain rifle or cartridge, we both may like the caliber or not, again preference. Or a pickup truck same thing. I am not advocating for you to change, I am just telling you why I feel it is best for me. I have not insulted you over it or will I. But that can not be said of others.

I have seen lives destroyed by bad shootings, that bullet never can be brought back, that moment in time will live with you forever. I will wait that split second to give them a chance, I am not so convinced I want to shoot the guy who is drunk and stumbled into the same house one block over and is harmless. ( I saw that one too). He stops and does what I ask, well that's enough.
I am not a killer by choice or a braggard on the net. I am a guy like yourself that has a lot of experience pulling his string.

Thanks for the information.

Harley
 
MEDDAC:

Let me get this straight. Here's the scenario: You and your family are in the house and you don't know the whereabouts of your wife and kids. You are surprised by an intruder in your home. Luckily you have your shotgun but he is outside the effective reach of birdshot but within range of buckshot. If I understand you correctly, you're going to wait for him to make a move, shoot you etc.... instead of shooting him with buckshot?

I completely agree that you have to be sensitive and aware of what is BEHIND your target. In that regard you are being very responsible. However, I think it would be MORE irresponsible to NOT shoot a BG with buckshot for fear of overpenetration than taking the shot with buckshot. By waiting, you give up any advantages you may have.
 
A shot does not have to be lethal to be effective. At 10 yards which is probably the farthest a BG would ever be encountered, (definitely in my house) the spread of my birdshot load will be no more than 4''-8'', if that, with full choke. I think that this would be more than adequate to stop any BG. Just being in my house does not mean that I need to kill them. As to the bad guy only being hurt and then continuing after me, would mean that I have a hit put out on me. I think most home invasions are to steal money or any easy thing to carry and fence. These guys, after being shot, are not going to become dedicated assassins, they are going to flee or cry for their Mommy's. Look at the pic of that birdshot wound again, based on the spread that shot came from approx. 30 yds I bet even at that distance it got the guy's attention.

p.s. Not knowing where my loved ones are is why I would use the birdshot.
 
Predicting what a BG may or may not do is risky business. And if he turns to flee, what then?

I seriously doubt the stopping power of birdshot at 10 yards (which is 30') against an attacker wearing anything durable (like jeans or leather).

You're banking on a lot of dangerous assumptions:

1. He's a "normal" BG not juiced up on crack or PCP or meth;
2. He's not armed with a gun and shooting back with his "man stopping" bullets;
3. That he will flee after the first shot. Maybe he realizes that it IS life or death and will fight until the death;
4. That he doesn't have a partner out of view that has a large caliber gun that will do you in while you're making your followups on the wounded BG or chasing the wounded BG outside.
 
leadcounsel

If he flees, I win. If I continue the fight after he runs, then I'm guilty of 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.
 
Have you considered what will happen if you injure him and he escapes?

Do you think he'll be foregiving? Or is it more likely he and his friends may decide to extract revenge against you and your family, or that he may sue you? Of course if he's dead his family/friends could still seek revenge or lawsuit, but the most dangerous enemy I imagine you can make is someone that you shot that survived.

Can you defend your home 24-7 from burglary, hits, firebombs, etc.?

If you shoot and kill a burglar he's not going to testify against you in civil court about how he had a rough upbringing and was hungry and only wanted a drink of water. He's not going to rally his thug friends to do awful things to you, your family, your home, your pets, etc.

Best bet -- If there's someone in MY house that doesn't belong, and it's clear that it's not a mistake (I think you can tell in an instant whether someone has entered by mistake, mainly because it would be impossible to enter my house by mistake because the doors and windows are locked; therefore if he's there, he's made a deadly mistake), he's going out in a body bag.

Now, I'm the only witness and the police will get one side of the story, the truth, rather than two sides.
 
Meddac

You are very correct in your thinking as far as I am concerned. 2nd degree or manslaughter is exactly what you will be looking at if you pursue and shoot them down.
BG is running because he had no weapon he is wounded. You are not going to continue and kill him? Good call.

They come back and harm you and yours, yes that is a tough one to call.
But they are the ones that make the overt move not you, because you are a responsible citizen and not a wanton killer. Another good call.

I think "Lead" you need to quit making up all these different scene's just so you can say I won HA HA.

This is one of the tough things about taking someones life based on your own training and your experience. Or lack of it.

Given a badge, major responsibility, a city can be sued millions of dollars because you as an officer of the city makes a bad call.

I knew a guy that was LEO and would not shoot back because of not wanting to take a life. True, he was pensioned off after twice being hit in the vest on two different occasions and he did not fire back, his fellow officers did though.

I have seen some that were to quick to shoot and get fired or pensioned.

I wish it was as easy as 'Lead' say's but the circumstances have to be right and even then you are in for a long legal battle. Civilians as a rule don't make good choice's, But meddac is making responsible choice's.

This is not right or wrong it is a decision that needs to be made by the person who loads the gun. The scene can change in an instant and hopefully you make the right choice. I feel as I have said the choice for me would be #6s in the house.

I think Meddac feels the same, so now he is going to feel 'Lead's' rage. LOL

Lead let it go.

Harley
 
At 10 yards which is probably the farthest a BG would ever be encountered, (definitely in my house) the spread of my birdshot load will be no more than 4''-8''
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Your shotgun obviously shoots better patterns than mine, my favorite shotgun a Remington 1187 won't make 4' groups at 30 yards with a turkey choke. I know, I have tried. I consistently shoot 12-14 inches with my turkey loads and a extra full turkey choke at 30 yards. The best I can do is about 45 yards and consistently get a tight enough pattern for turkeys (number of hits on the birds silhouette). Based upon the patterning of my shotguns I am impressed with yours.

On a different note, my self defense shotguns a Remington 1187, Remington 1100, Remington 870 and a Mossberg 500 wont come close to patterning like my hunting shotguns. Again I know I have tried.

You might want to pattern your gun on paper if you have not. If you have, again you have a really special gun.

The rule of thumb for a cylinder bore, most defensive shotguns are cylinder bore, pattern spread is on inch per linear yard of travel. So at 30 yards your typical shotgun pattern with a defensive shotgun will be 30 inches. At the afore mentioned 10 feet it will be approximately 3 inches. This is just a rule of thumb and every individual should pattern their shotgun so they know how it performs with an individual loading.

As I stated before, I think that everyone can benefit from professional training. I know that I did. It changed my perceptions of reality. I highly recommend LFI, Thunder Ranch, Jim Cirillo’s classes, John Farnam’s Classes, and Gunsight. There are others that are great also. I am just making recommendations based upon experience.

Charles
 
Exciting Places

Boy, some of you live in exciting places. I mean with folks coming into homes that are as big as linebackers and wearing enough clothing to deflect lead going at 1300 feet per second. I guess the BG's around here are wimps compared to yours. Around here, a blast from a shotgun, regardless of payload, at ten feet, incapacitates them.
 
From less then 10' to more

then 30 Yds, LOL...

Geez guys we are talking a specific area, your home.

Not shooting turkey at 30 or 40 yds or BG at that distance. We have a changing scenerio every couple of posts and it is growing.

Less then 10' is where most shootings occur. This sounds like a football game and one side is trying to run the ball and get a few yds and someone else is talking throwing it 30 to 40 yds.
In that game you have multiple scenerios from Quarterbacks making, 'Hail Mary's', to your Fullback going in for a couple of feet.

One more thing about shooting. Shotguns or longguns or handguns one thing
in common they will spread out the further they get from the barrel.

Shotgun scatters pretty fast, slugs are luckey to be in a 12" circle at 80 yds
Rifle's are pretty accurate at distances of under 300 yds but after that they grow. Heck they grow quite a bit, if say at 100yds you are shooting a 2" circle, then at 300 yds you are luckey if you can keep it in an 8" circle.

Hand guns are similar they are going to grow, from where they are touching at 7yds and then at 50yds you are growing quite a bit, depends on the length of a barrel etc... It is inherent in the piece you are holding in your hand.

Now add all that up and take into consideration the shooter. Now we are talking major variables. Lets keep this to open sights shall we?

So what I am saying is less than 10' ...LOL this is funny.

Then you go from the wife beater shirt (very popular for BG) to leather jackets and heavy overcoats, then to the vest, on to Batman costumes with stronger then steel protection. LOL

I think there are quite a bit of teenagers out there arguing this thread.

Do the test. LOL

Edit...
I have been doing training under professional leadership most of my adult life.
From learning to shoot in the Marine Corps at the young age of 17 to now.
I was figuring it out today when I was over to the range practicing with a 30 cal carbine. I probably have shot more than 100,000 rounds of ammo. Not bragging, just the fact's ma'am.

Harley
 
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