Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense
- Thread starter Helwan
- Start date
I am the kind of guy that keeps a 590 loaded 8+1 with "hollow point" 1oz slugs. (The remington loads are VERY accurate out of my shotgun. I can routinely hit a soda can 25 feet away with quick follow-up shots.)
That being said, I do not think anything is wrong with shooting a BG at 5 feet with birdshot. You would basically blow a shot cup sized hole into him... but beyond that I want 00 of 000... preferably a solid .72 caliber projectile.
That being said, I do not think anything is wrong with shooting a BG at 5 feet with birdshot. You would basically blow a shot cup sized hole into him... but beyond that I want 00 of 000... preferably a solid .72 caliber projectile.
OneInchGroup
New member
Birds of a Feather
Yo Harley,
Hope you don't suffer too much from whatever "insults" you think I tossed in your way.
Nothin' personal there, pal, just mebbe a difference of opinion expressed a bit harder each time you went on the offensive from your side.
Its called a discussion.
End result is some of us had some fun, some of us reacted like we'd had our chains pulled too hard.
Maybe next thread we'll actually agree on somethng........or maybe not
Yo Harley,
Hope you don't suffer too much from whatever "insults" you think I tossed in your way.
Nothin' personal there, pal, just mebbe a difference of opinion expressed a bit harder each time you went on the offensive from your side.
Its called a discussion.
End result is some of us had some fun, some of us reacted like we'd had our chains pulled too hard.
Maybe next thread we'll actually agree on somethng........or maybe not
WOD - Yes I am changing my mind - to load up a more powerful type of birdshot into my shotgun. Not switching to buck as of yet. The number 6 birdshot - might be switched to a number 4. Or perhaps a number 3 if I can find one.
I live in a townhouse environment with cinder block walls on the sides, but the front and rear is a brick facade - lots of overpenetration danger. I would probably switch to buck if I lived in a stone house out in the countryside with no nearby neighbors.
I do not think you can go wrong with either solution - one has to tailor the solution to the scenario. Where you live etc.
I live in a townhouse environment with cinder block walls on the sides, but the front and rear is a brick facade - lots of overpenetration danger. I would probably switch to buck if I lived in a stone house out in the countryside with no nearby neighbors.
I do not think you can go wrong with either solution - one has to tailor the solution to the scenario. Where you live etc.
Dfariswheel
New member
Duxman:
If you have cinderblock side walls and brick rear, you're good to go with buckshot.
Buckshot won't penetrate block or brick walls.
A test I once saw showed that buckshot will "spall" block and brick, but won't "bust" them, and certainly won't penetrate.
Block and brick are about the only wall construction that WILL stop buckshot.
As I recall, even slugs won't penetrate block and brick.
If you have cinderblock side walls and brick rear, you're good to go with buckshot.
Buckshot won't penetrate block or brick walls.
A test I once saw showed that buckshot will "spall" block and brick, but won't "bust" them, and certainly won't penetrate.
Block and brick are about the only wall construction that WILL stop buckshot.
As I recall, even slugs won't penetrate block and brick.
Just to touch on the possibilities of firing at a distance of 50'. I live in a 80 yr old row home. For those of you down south and elsewhere, it is what they now call "town" homes. Think of the opener of All In The Family, here in the N.E., they are rows. But anyway. From mt front door straight back to my back door is 50'. If a goblin is at one end, and I am the other, and he threatens my fams safety, I am engaging.
XavierBreath
New member
I'm going to dispute this.
There are a lot of variables, from the distance the buckshot is fired from to the quality of the masonry and the brick itself. I have seen buckshot penetrate a brick chimney. It was a ND from about 4 feet, and the chimney was about 10 years old made of fire rated red brick. The opposite wall of the chimney was not penetrated.
There are no absolutes.
Why keep it simple - when you can make it difficult?
Well I can certainly understand why some folks just call 911.
I know, with Halloween coming up - I reload some Skittles or Reece's Pieces - Goblins show up " Trick or Treat".
I am not the only one that has actually gone out and shot inside structures. Using safe backstops and abiding by 4 Rules.
Materials are one thing, these material react differently when actually part of a structure. Two x four studs differ from sixes. Paneling from sheetrock, from drywall ceilings. Porecelan tubs from Fiberglass ones. Fake wood fireplace mantels from heavy wood mantels.
Boy...them stone fireplaces are tough customers. Shooting from the "bedroom" out, stone fireplaces will stop a slug. Takes a nice chunk out of the River Rock, still stopped it. I'll stick with the 1oz Federal slugs anyway.
Find a way to shoot Thermal Pane glass installed. Have a target on other side, and take note of POA/ POI. Reacts just like vehicle glass, bullets, buckshot, do not always end up where pointed - slugs do much better.
Shoot thru a heavy glass room door - one that divides rooms.
Try the glass decorative bricks for backstops. Say for instance you need to cower down for cover below a kitchen counter, bar, or low divder wall in an office setting made up of these decorative bricks.
I think about what if...what if the BG is coming at me, what can I use for cover to stop his incoming lead.
I hope he is using Skittles...
Well I can certainly understand why some folks just call 911.
I know, with Halloween coming up - I reload some Skittles or Reece's Pieces - Goblins show up " Trick or Treat".
I am not the only one that has actually gone out and shot inside structures. Using safe backstops and abiding by 4 Rules.
Materials are one thing, these material react differently when actually part of a structure. Two x four studs differ from sixes. Paneling from sheetrock, from drywall ceilings. Porecelan tubs from Fiberglass ones. Fake wood fireplace mantels from heavy wood mantels.
Boy...them stone fireplaces are tough customers. Shooting from the "bedroom" out, stone fireplaces will stop a slug. Takes a nice chunk out of the River Rock, still stopped it. I'll stick with the 1oz Federal slugs anyway.
Find a way to shoot Thermal Pane glass installed. Have a target on other side, and take note of POA/ POI. Reacts just like vehicle glass, bullets, buckshot, do not always end up where pointed - slugs do much better.
Shoot thru a heavy glass room door - one that divides rooms.
Try the glass decorative bricks for backstops. Say for instance you need to cower down for cover below a kitchen counter, bar, or low divder wall in an office setting made up of these decorative bricks.
I think about what if...what if the BG is coming at me, what can I use for cover to stop his incoming lead.
I hope he is using Skittles...
Harley Quinn
Moderator
Still reading and writing
I agree with most of the various thoughts and similar scenerios,
00..000..0000, slugs, good stuff.
But I will stick with my thoughts regarding the question. In the house and less then 10 feet.
Again at that distance you are going to have that slug going through the BG and the wall and the wall. Pretty much with your heavier buck.
I don't shoot um and then drag um in the house like I saw once...LOL
So I still like the bird shot for my first one in the snout.
Nothing wrong with a good discussion it is when people call each other names that things go a drift.
So don't throw mudd unless you want it thrown back, thats a good point also.
Does not hurt anybody? Hey this is an internet talk board. I can figure that most of the BS is from just that. BSers... I agree with others like I have said,
and again I go with my scenerio for less then 10 feet in the house.
Lets see, how many of you have shot buck shot or seen the damage of the various things we have talked about to the human torso?
Since leadcouncil has dissapeared after the salvo to his character, wonder how he is doing? Kinda makes you think don't it? Or not.
Harley
I agree with most of the various thoughts and similar scenerios,
00..000..0000, slugs, good stuff.
But I will stick with my thoughts regarding the question. In the house and less then 10 feet.
Again at that distance you are going to have that slug going through the BG and the wall and the wall. Pretty much with your heavier buck.
I don't shoot um and then drag um in the house like I saw once...LOL
So I still like the bird shot for my first one in the snout.
Nothing wrong with a good discussion it is when people call each other names that things go a drift.
So don't throw mudd unless you want it thrown back, thats a good point also.
Does not hurt anybody? Hey this is an internet talk board. I can figure that most of the BS is from just that. BSers... I agree with others like I have said,
and again I go with my scenerio for less then 10 feet in the house.
Lets see, how many of you have shot buck shot or seen the damage of the various things we have talked about to the human torso?
Since leadcouncil has dissapeared after the salvo to his character, wonder how he is doing? Kinda makes you think don't it? Or not.
Harley
leadcounsel
Moderator
Quinn,
This post is dead in the water... nobody cares that you use birdshot and you seem to be about the only one. You have NOT posted a single professional source that backs up your statement about using birdshot. Others, including myself, have posted MANY professionals that recommend buckshot.
I only hope that any burglar that attacks your home is unarmed, not wearing a heavy jacket or body armor, and approaches within 10' and then waits for you to shoot him. Beyond 10' or if he is wearing protective clothing, your birdshot will be an ineffective manstopper. Great that you've protected others from overpenetration, and the perp will thank you while he's standing over your body with your shotgun getting ready to go rape your daughter.... and bleed all over your wife because you caused alot of surface tissue damage....
As for the unwarranted attack on my character on another posting, that person should back up their comments or sit down. He's done neither, much like you. You're in the clear minority here regarding birdshot for home defense applications. The overwhelming research, HD instructors, and firingline posters all recommend buck; you'd be wise to listen. However, I stopped posting because I said I was withdrawing and I really give a rats @ss about what you think is best for HD because you have zero credibility anymore.
Oh, and by the way, I performed your silly little test over the weekend using birdshot and buckshot. The birdshot barely damaged the object at 10' and the buckshot destroyed it. So, there you go. If you're worried about overpenetration, Daisy makes a great BB gun... maybe you can shoot his eye out.
This post is dead in the water... nobody cares that you use birdshot and you seem to be about the only one. You have NOT posted a single professional source that backs up your statement about using birdshot. Others, including myself, have posted MANY professionals that recommend buckshot.
I only hope that any burglar that attacks your home is unarmed, not wearing a heavy jacket or body armor, and approaches within 10' and then waits for you to shoot him. Beyond 10' or if he is wearing protective clothing, your birdshot will be an ineffective manstopper. Great that you've protected others from overpenetration, and the perp will thank you while he's standing over your body with your shotgun getting ready to go rape your daughter.... and bleed all over your wife because you caused alot of surface tissue damage....
As for the unwarranted attack on my character on another posting, that person should back up their comments or sit down. He's done neither, much like you. You're in the clear minority here regarding birdshot for home defense applications. The overwhelming research, HD instructors, and firingline posters all recommend buck; you'd be wise to listen. However, I stopped posting because I said I was withdrawing and I really give a rats @ss about what you think is best for HD because you have zero credibility anymore.
Oh, and by the way, I performed your silly little test over the weekend using birdshot and buckshot. The birdshot barely damaged the object at 10' and the buckshot destroyed it. So, there you go. If you're worried about overpenetration, Daisy makes a great BB gun... maybe you can shoot his eye out.
Harley Quinn
Moderator
Hi Lead
Yes I agree with you on some of what you are saying.
But and here is the real issue, you are not who you say you are in my
opinion and I don't believe you did the test. OK.
Lets just let it go at that, Opinions are like -------- because everyone has
one.
Your last post said it all.
Harley
Yes I agree with you on some of what you are saying.
But and here is the real issue, you are not who you say you are in my
opinion and I don't believe you did the test. OK.
Lets just let it go at that, Opinions are like -------- because everyone has
one.
Your last post said it all.
Harley
OneInchGroup
New member
Bucks and Birds and Sneezy, Grumpy, and Doc
Might as well take one more kick at this dead horse. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, shoot it with duck-shot.
If it weighs 200 lbs, wears a mask and light body armor and has a gun, how about using buckshot? Lots and lots of buckshot.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Like somebody said opinions are like ------s, everybody has one.
Of course , when deciding what might be a life or death question, the only opinion that finally matters is your own, because that's the opinion that will either keep you alive, or kill you.
If it was a majority vote, then birdshot is out by about a 6 to one ratio here.
Fortunately, there is no mandatory loading that has been legislated up to now, so anyone is entitled to use buckshot, birdshot, rock salt, skittles, whatever floats your boat, as long as you know that its only YOUR LIFE that hangs in the balance.
Might as well take one more kick at this dead horse. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, shoot it with duck-shot.
If it weighs 200 lbs, wears a mask and light body armor and has a gun, how about using buckshot? Lots and lots of buckshot.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Like somebody said opinions are like ------s, everybody has one.
Of course , when deciding what might be a life or death question, the only opinion that finally matters is your own, because that's the opinion that will either keep you alive, or kill you.
If it was a majority vote, then birdshot is out by about a 6 to one ratio here.
Fortunately, there is no mandatory loading that has been legislated up to now, so anyone is entitled to use buckshot, birdshot, rock salt, skittles, whatever floats your boat, as long as you know that its only YOUR LIFE that hangs in the balance.
I really hate to help perpetuate this thread, but one more thought comes to mind... there is a "happy medium" between 00 Buck and #7 birdshot. There is some strong authoritative support for #1 Buck and #4 Buck... loads which will be much more effective than birdshot, yet not penetrate walls quite as readily as 00 Buck will. Not so great for long distances, but for a homeowner with likely ranges of perhaps 5' to 30', it's a reasonable alternative, though not perfect... but nothing is!
Actually...
I used to work in the Main OR of a big hospital. We had 19 OR suites.
This did not include other surgical areas btw...
I worked there as I was taking medical classes at the time, I was going in that direction at the time. So with my classes, I had rotations if you will.
My shooting pards over the years, many were Doctors, Surgeons, ScrubTechs...
So yes I have seen , literally stuck my Bio-Gel -ed hands into the goo, gore, blood, muscle, bone, tissue...to retreive the lead / various types of ammo emptied into a human body. I have done so with Animals as well.
Same with edged weapons, pointy sticks, the green fence stake that went into a ladies body during a MVA and - best to just bring her in with stake and remove in the OR.
Seat belts, have a tendency to do nasty things to mammaries, sometimes the breast was saved, sometimes not.
We had a "discussion" once upon a time, in regard to the "Ultimate Shotgun", many folks recall the discussion.
We have Professional Folks on this board and THR, actually been on Safaris and such. Buckshot is NOT the "Ultimate". Basic gyst of that discussion. Now when a mean critter weighing only 150# , with claws, horns or whatever is coming at you, intends to do harm, and does not have a PC much less the internet - said critter does not know he is supposed to run away, or DRT. Mother Nature instead gave that critter some skills, and that critter is gonna do some serious hurt, if an IMMEDIATE ACTION does not occur by his 'prey'.
Apply this to a bigger , meaner critter.
Humans are another factor in this equation.
I have shot rabid critters, including dogs ( in a pack or not) weighing 60# to 120#. At distances as close as 2yds. Buckshot did not always stop the immediate action with one shot, and I made good hits! A 60# mutt did not stop DRT, he keep a coming and was serious about his intent, I shot until the threat was stopped.
I doubt seriously bird shot would have done any better. I figure a human being weighing more, with intent, drunk, high, both or all the above is a no brainer.
I choose to NOT risk the "sound of a pump will scare 'em. Nor do I chance the sound of the gun, or any type of projectile going at them - would stop and immediate threat.
Why do I want to give away my intent by racking a pump or any other action , like throwing a bolt, racking a slide, closing a cylinder, slapping a mag in...I do not give away my position when I hunt - why in the world would I want to when the BG is the one hunting me?
I am also responsible for any projectiles I launch. So why would I fire an indescrimate warning shot - or scare tactic shot?
WE talk , bash, trash, discuss, get threads locked, and theorize Firearms, Platforms, Wood & Blue, tactical, Bling Bling, Fuzzy dice, caliber wars, guage wars, birdshot, buckshot, slugs, dragons-breath , flares - you name it.
The reality is - we have 4 Rules of Gun Safety. Guns are dangerous tools no doubt. It is the intent of the user of any tool, every tool has Rules of Safety - be it a handsaw, powerdrill, or matchstick.
Reality is also - There is NO Warranty that any Firearm, with any loading is 1) gonna go bang. 2) Result of said bang will hit what aimed at ( shot placement) and 3) the immediate threat will be stopped.
I have seen, stuck my Bio-Gel -ed hands into the mouth of a fellow that stuck a .357 revolver , with full power .357 loads mind you , into his mouth and pulled the trigger.
Yes he lived, and is still living. Granted he has room service, all sorts of attention, folks tending to him, some dental work, sinus work, - but he lived.
There are NO Absolutes in Life - except there ain't any.
My observations : If some life form ever draws a breath. if you will - someday it won't anymore. About as Absolute as I tend to get.
Human beings are facinating. Anatomy and Physiology I really really enjoyed. The human body is the most unique "computer" if you will, all sorts of stuff all working at the same time. The body is designed to protect itself.
All sorts of things happen when a body takes a trauma. All sorts of things happen while laying on a OR table.
So yes my experiences do shape my opinions. My experiences sometimes takes me back to my youth and <click> "umm maybe that is why that critter did not do this, or that person died, or that one survived that car wreck, fall, this, that or the other accident or experience".
This board, TFL was set up to Promote Responsible Fiream Ownerhip.
I know, there are folks all over the world that read TFL and similar sites. I also know there are folks that are AGAINST Responsible firearm ownership that read TFL as well. What perceptions did I [Steve] do for Responsible Firearm Ownership with my postings?
I have my faults , made my mistakes, I am human and will so again most likely.
There is so much to this Responsibe Firearm ownership - than guns.
So much more than types of shot, slugs, ammo, mag capacity and whatever else is hashed, bashed and trashed.
Rich has a sig line : More Signal, Less Noise.....please
Well Rich - I apologize for wasting bandwith. I know I cannot change people, places and things. I am responsible for ME, and I am the only one that can change ME.
I am going to do everything possible to NOT be there when trouble shows up. I am going to know how to use various tools, be it guns, ammo, voting, being a member of some Organization, taking a new shooter shooting, keeping up with legistalation ...etc.
Most of my trigger time is on shotguns and handguns. I let the rifle skills kinda slide - and I used to shoot rifles in competion when I was younger. That is my fault.
Folks - we can hash, bash, trash all we want. The reality is one has to actually get the training, test for themselves to make a determination. Once that deterimination is made - really really hope that determination is never tested in the real world application.
Again apologize to Rich, Staff, and Mods. I'm going to log off and then read the L&P, nope on second thought, going to read some old archives , need a LawDog story I do.
I have some other reading to do in the TFL Library, I keep finding new things to read and learn from in there.
I won't be making noise - I'll be making more signal.
Steve
I used to work in the Main OR of a big hospital. We had 19 OR suites.
This did not include other surgical areas btw...
I worked there as I was taking medical classes at the time, I was going in that direction at the time. So with my classes, I had rotations if you will.
My shooting pards over the years, many were Doctors, Surgeons, ScrubTechs...
So yes I have seen , literally stuck my Bio-Gel -ed hands into the goo, gore, blood, muscle, bone, tissue...to retreive the lead / various types of ammo emptied into a human body. I have done so with Animals as well.
Same with edged weapons, pointy sticks, the green fence stake that went into a ladies body during a MVA and - best to just bring her in with stake and remove in the OR.
Seat belts, have a tendency to do nasty things to mammaries, sometimes the breast was saved, sometimes not.
We had a "discussion" once upon a time, in regard to the "Ultimate Shotgun", many folks recall the discussion.
We have Professional Folks on this board and THR, actually been on Safaris and such. Buckshot is NOT the "Ultimate". Basic gyst of that discussion. Now when a mean critter weighing only 150# , with claws, horns or whatever is coming at you, intends to do harm, and does not have a PC much less the internet - said critter does not know he is supposed to run away, or DRT. Mother Nature instead gave that critter some skills, and that critter is gonna do some serious hurt, if an IMMEDIATE ACTION does not occur by his 'prey'.
Apply this to a bigger , meaner critter.
Humans are another factor in this equation.
I have shot rabid critters, including dogs ( in a pack or not) weighing 60# to 120#. At distances as close as 2yds. Buckshot did not always stop the immediate action with one shot, and I made good hits! A 60# mutt did not stop DRT, he keep a coming and was serious about his intent, I shot until the threat was stopped.
I doubt seriously bird shot would have done any better. I figure a human being weighing more, with intent, drunk, high, both or all the above is a no brainer.
I choose to NOT risk the "sound of a pump will scare 'em. Nor do I chance the sound of the gun, or any type of projectile going at them - would stop and immediate threat.
Why do I want to give away my intent by racking a pump or any other action , like throwing a bolt, racking a slide, closing a cylinder, slapping a mag in...I do not give away my position when I hunt - why in the world would I want to when the BG is the one hunting me?
I am also responsible for any projectiles I launch. So why would I fire an indescrimate warning shot - or scare tactic shot?
WE talk , bash, trash, discuss, get threads locked, and theorize Firearms, Platforms, Wood & Blue, tactical, Bling Bling, Fuzzy dice, caliber wars, guage wars, birdshot, buckshot, slugs, dragons-breath , flares - you name it.
The reality is - we have 4 Rules of Gun Safety. Guns are dangerous tools no doubt. It is the intent of the user of any tool, every tool has Rules of Safety - be it a handsaw, powerdrill, or matchstick.
Reality is also - There is NO Warranty that any Firearm, with any loading is 1) gonna go bang. 2) Result of said bang will hit what aimed at ( shot placement) and 3) the immediate threat will be stopped.
I have seen, stuck my Bio-Gel -ed hands into the mouth of a fellow that stuck a .357 revolver , with full power .357 loads mind you , into his mouth and pulled the trigger.
Yes he lived, and is still living. Granted he has room service, all sorts of attention, folks tending to him, some dental work, sinus work, - but he lived.
There are NO Absolutes in Life - except there ain't any.
My observations : If some life form ever draws a breath. if you will - someday it won't anymore. About as Absolute as I tend to get.
Human beings are facinating. Anatomy and Physiology I really really enjoyed. The human body is the most unique "computer" if you will, all sorts of stuff all working at the same time. The body is designed to protect itself.
All sorts of things happen when a body takes a trauma. All sorts of things happen while laying on a OR table.
So yes my experiences do shape my opinions. My experiences sometimes takes me back to my youth and <click> "umm maybe that is why that critter did not do this, or that person died, or that one survived that car wreck, fall, this, that or the other accident or experience".
This board, TFL was set up to Promote Responsible Fiream Ownerhip.
I know, there are folks all over the world that read TFL and similar sites. I also know there are folks that are AGAINST Responsible firearm ownership that read TFL as well. What perceptions did I [Steve] do for Responsible Firearm Ownership with my postings?
I have my faults , made my mistakes, I am human and will so again most likely.
There is so much to this Responsibe Firearm ownership - than guns.
So much more than types of shot, slugs, ammo, mag capacity and whatever else is hashed, bashed and trashed.
Rich has a sig line : More Signal, Less Noise.....please
Well Rich - I apologize for wasting bandwith. I know I cannot change people, places and things. I am responsible for ME, and I am the only one that can change ME.
I am going to do everything possible to NOT be there when trouble shows up. I am going to know how to use various tools, be it guns, ammo, voting, being a member of some Organization, taking a new shooter shooting, keeping up with legistalation ...etc.
Most of my trigger time is on shotguns and handguns. I let the rifle skills kinda slide - and I used to shoot rifles in competion when I was younger. That is my fault.
Folks - we can hash, bash, trash all we want. The reality is one has to actually get the training, test for themselves to make a determination. Once that deterimination is made - really really hope that determination is never tested in the real world application.
Again apologize to Rich, Staff, and Mods. I'm going to log off and then read the L&P, nope on second thought, going to read some old archives , need a LawDog story I do.
I have some other reading to do in the TFL Library, I keep finding new things to read and learn from in there.
I won't be making noise - I'll be making more signal.
Steve