leadcounsel
Moderator
Sticks and stones and buckshot may break your bones, but birdshot certainly will NOT 
Couldn't resist!
Couldn't resist!
Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense
- Thread starter Helwan
- Start date
He is wrong about A LOT of things. You should see his pepper spray thread that got locked and his amusing tales of breaking into hardened steel safes with a screw driver in a different thread.
On topic-- I would probably use #4 after seeing those nasty photos posted earlier in the thread.
This has been a very interesting discussion and I am change my mind about my current load: #6 birdshot in a 590 Mossberg.
Thank you for your varied opinions gentlemen, and the nice links: Lead - I especially like your Wound ballistics link - and the box of truth (Which I have been surfing for a while) with the new shotgun test is very enlightening.
I must add that before I started reading about shotguns and HD, I used buckshot, then after taking to various sources: Ex CIA, army folks, I switched over to birdshot. (With their advice)
Hoping to never use my shotgun in a defensive scenario, but if I were, my main concern is taking out the BG. If I can accomplish that without destroying my home, killing my neighbors etc., that would be the preference.
Thank you for your varied opinions gentlemen, and the nice links: Lead - I especially like your Wound ballistics link - and the box of truth (Which I have been surfing for a while) with the new shotgun test is very enlightening.
I must add that before I started reading about shotguns and HD, I used buckshot, then after taking to various sources: Ex CIA, army folks, I switched over to birdshot. (With their advice)
Hoping to never use my shotgun in a defensive scenario, but if I were, my main concern is taking out the BG. If I can accomplish that without destroying my home, killing my neighbors etc., that would be the preference.
I am a little confused?
Are you saying that after talking with ex CIA, army folks, ie people in the know who advised you to use birdshot as Harley espoused;
You have now changed your mind from birdshot to buckshot on the advice of virtual people who have used nothing but conjecture and jest to prove their point? Harley's methods may not be scientific, but at least he has spent the time to test them, while everyone else is just making fun of him.
To each his own
Friendly Prosecutors
Some of you must live in counties with very understanding and conservative DA's. You mention going outside and shooting at someone 50 or 60 feet away. There is mention about shooting someone through a door. I am more restricted in my county. Our district attorney frowns on any self defense shooting that is not anything but just that, self defense.
Some of you must live in counties with very understanding and conservative DA's. You mention going outside and shooting at someone 50 or 60 feet away. There is mention about shooting someone through a door. I am more restricted in my county. Our district attorney frowns on any self defense shooting that is not anything but just that, self defense.
WOD the thing to keep in mind is I think you have to ask yourself ultimately where you have to defer to a better source for testing. I won't try to do my own MRI at home, I have to go to a professional for that. The same goes for home ballistics, at least to me. I can do all the tests in the world with wet phone books, or half full milk jugs, or whatever other scheme I dream up. Looking at hard test data for ballistic gelatin though far beats out anything I can mock up at home. So yes when the FBI says I need a foot of penetration from hard data gathered from people getting shot I'll believe them no matter how many watermelons I've blown up. When someone does a comparion with ballistic gelatin, I'll probably take their results over someone shooting through corn cobs unless their methodology seems wrong. It just seems foolish to ignore the results of a better testing method just because you don't have the means to replicate their testing setup.
OneInchGroup
New member
Bucks and Birds and Lions and tigers and bears....Oh My
Don't feel bad Mathman, I'm one of the ones who caught the first few rounds of abuse for mentioning that they call it "birdshot" because the ammo manufacturers, little backwoods outfits like Federal, Remington, Winchester, etc., designed the load for...... big surprise....BIRDS!!. And they call that other stuff BUCKshot because its for big male deer. Response I got was that I'm sooooooooo stupid that I'd probably not be able to know enough to use .223 Varmint ammo on a Tango because its got a picture of a groundhog on the box. That was about the time I abandoned training, knowledge, experience, etc. and suggested that the best weapon must be a hammer, because that wouldn't penetrate drywall accidentally but you might be able to beat the BG to death with it, unless he had a gun, of course.
Half the folks posting here would absolutely positively do the PC thing and bring an underpowered weapon to a live or die GUNFIGHT!
Wanna have a duel at the length of my upstairs hallway? You guys take the #6, or #8, and I'll stand behind the hall tree and pound away at you with 00 BUCKSHOT.....OK? Range 20 feet, spread on 00 buck about 10-12 inches. Do the math, pals! I'l be a bit bloody, you'll be a bit shredded.
Don't feel bad Mathman, I'm one of the ones who caught the first few rounds of abuse for mentioning that they call it "birdshot" because the ammo manufacturers, little backwoods outfits like Federal, Remington, Winchester, etc., designed the load for...... big surprise....BIRDS!!. And they call that other stuff BUCKshot because its for big male deer. Response I got was that I'm sooooooooo stupid that I'd probably not be able to know enough to use .223 Varmint ammo on a Tango because its got a picture of a groundhog on the box. That was about the time I abandoned training, knowledge, experience, etc. and suggested that the best weapon must be a hammer, because that wouldn't penetrate drywall accidentally but you might be able to beat the BG to death with it, unless he had a gun, of course.
Half the folks posting here would absolutely positively do the PC thing and bring an underpowered weapon to a live or die GUNFIGHT!
Wanna have a duel at the length of my upstairs hallway? You guys take the #6, or #8, and I'll stand behind the hall tree and pound away at you with 00 BUCKSHOT.....OK? Range 20 feet, spread on 00 buck about 10-12 inches. Do the math, pals! I'l be a bit bloody, you'll be a bit shredded.
The range of 00 buck is limited, in a typical cyl bore barrel, to about 15 to 20 yds before the pattern thins out.
There's no question that birdshot is devistating at near contact range--or that it's ineffective as soon as the pattern develops and individual pellets are on their own. Why argue about it. For those who understand the facts before making decisions with re: to HD loads, then that's your call if you wish to limit your effective range to 5 to 7 yds (less if heavy clothing is involved).
This subject comes up more than the 9mm vs. the .45 Auto debate before .40 cal. came along.
There's no question that birdshot is devistating at near contact range--or that it's ineffective as soon as the pattern develops and individual pellets are on their own. Why argue about it. For those who understand the facts before making decisions with re: to HD loads, then that's your call if you wish to limit your effective range to 5 to 7 yds (less if heavy clothing is involved).
This subject comes up more than the 9mm vs. the .45 Auto debate before .40 cal. came along.
Okay Roy, here you go . . .
The bad guy breaks in your house and rapes your daughter. He starts dragging her out of the house and her scream wakes you. By the time you wake up, grab your shotgun and go down stairs, he is throwing her in the back seat of his car and getting ready to get in the front seat to drive away . . . are you going to shoot? Or, let him drive off? Or, close to 5' so your birdshot works?
Here is another, it is a hot summer night. You are sleeping when you hear a car pull up. You see several guys get out with hooded sweat shirts with one carrying a shot gun. You aren't far from the door when they start to kick it in and screaming mean nasty phrases at you . . . are you going to shoot (possibly through the door)? Or, are you going to wait until they door finally gives way? Oh, I forgot . . .just birdshot . . . better wait until the door gets out of the way.
I am sure there are far better examples but that should make the point clear.
The bad guy breaks in your house and rapes your daughter. He starts dragging her out of the house and her scream wakes you. By the time you wake up, grab your shotgun and go down stairs, he is throwing her in the back seat of his car and getting ready to get in the front seat to drive away . . . are you going to shoot? Or, let him drive off? Or, close to 5' so your birdshot works?
Here is another, it is a hot summer night. You are sleeping when you hear a car pull up. You see several guys get out with hooded sweat shirts with one carrying a shot gun. You aren't far from the door when they start to kick it in and screaming mean nasty phrases at you . . . are you going to shoot (possibly through the door)? Or, are you going to wait until they door finally gives way? Oh, I forgot . . .just birdshot . . . better wait until the door gets out of the way.
I am sure there are far better examples but that should make the point clear.
OneInchGroup
New member
Buck or birdor 9, 12, or 18 Pellets??
I'd go with the 3 1/2and 18 but ONLY because the wife won't let me set up any claymores in the bedroom.
Anybody thinks the sound of a slide racking on a Mossy 12 is enough to scare off the BGs, has never been around when somebody double-clicked one of those puppies' detonators..... BOOM!
I'd go with the 3 1/2and 18 but ONLY because the wife won't let me set up any claymores in the bedroom.
Anybody thinks the sound of a slide racking on a Mossy 12 is enough to scare off the BGs, has never been around when somebody double-clicked one of those puppies' detonators.....
BOOM!
Re:aashooter
Your added details make all the difference in the world. Some of the responses mentioning distances and outdoors did not mention any scenarios like you did. In other words, you added details "should" make the shooting a justifiable homicide.
However, around where I live, if you shoot anyone at more than at twenty or thirty feet, espically outdoors, you better have had all your ducks in order. In my county, if you shoot someone on the other side of a door, you better have evidence that it happened as you indicated above. Short of that, you better hope the DA is in a good mood.
Your added details make all the difference in the world. Some of the responses mentioning distances and outdoors did not mention any scenarios like you did. In other words, you added details "should" make the shooting a justifiable homicide.
However, around where I live, if you shoot anyone at more than at twenty or thirty feet, espically outdoors, you better have had all your ducks in order. In my county, if you shoot someone on the other side of a door, you better have evidence that it happened as you indicated above. Short of that, you better hope the DA is in a good mood.
OneInchGroup
New member
Birds and Bucks and BeeStings
You mean "Retarded"? Like I usedtabee a Jarhead buttnow I'm retarded?
You mean "Retarded"? Like I usedtabee a Jarhead buttnow I'm retarded?
OneInchGroup
New member
Buck? Shot? Just Talked to him Yesterday!
Roy,
You must have missed half the threads in this old raggy shirt. All that legal worrying got tossed out about 50 or 60 posts ago! Couple of us had the nerve to say it would be a really good idea to make sure alll the entry wounds were in the front of the BG, and that firing at a fleeing felon 25 yards down the driveway was mebbe gonna get you more jail time than the Target,. Then we moved on to the important stuff, like what size birdshot is best to use on a burglar in a flannel shirt or a Martha Stewart Shawl, to be sure of a one shot stop without damaging any of the furniture, etc.
Everybody is obsessing on the weapons and tactics, and giving no thought to the couple years' worth of hassle that starts just as the gunfire echoes die out.............. Plenty "how to" and "what if" up to the first trigger pull, NO plan for the after-action changes to your whole life.
Couple shots fired in the moment, and you are forever after gonna be somebody else. "One little mistake" and a blue dress..............!!!!!!!!
Bet not one baby got named Monica the last couple years....
Roy,
You must have missed half the threads in this old raggy shirt. All that legal worrying got tossed out about 50 or 60 posts ago! Couple of us had the nerve to say it would be a really good idea to make sure alll the entry wounds were in the front of the BG, and that firing at a fleeing felon 25 yards down the driveway was mebbe gonna get you more jail time than the Target,. Then we moved on to the important stuff, like what size birdshot is best to use on a burglar in a flannel shirt or a Martha Stewart Shawl, to be sure of a one shot stop without damaging any of the furniture, etc.
Everybody is obsessing on the weapons and tactics, and giving no thought to the couple years' worth of hassle that starts just as the gunfire echoes die out.............. Plenty "how to" and "what if" up to the first trigger pull, NO plan for the after-action changes to your whole life.
Couple shots fired in the moment, and you are forever after gonna be somebody else. "One little mistake" and a blue dress..............!!!!!!!!
Bet not one baby got named Monica the last couple years....
Harley Quinn
Moderator
You are welcome Helwan
Hi Helwan,
Glad to see you. Since you came back and offered your thanks I will say one more thing.
Did you notice how "lead" disappeared when he was exposed for his silly stuff on another thread. Then "1 inch group" comes back with his insults? LOL
I gave a scenerio of the 410 with bird then 000 and 00 and then slugs.
One inch bad mouthed it, then it comes up as the scenerio to justify the 00.
I have got to tell you, I am glad the rope was long enough. I sat and waited for you.
Take care,
Harley
Hi Helwan,
Glad to see you. Since you came back and offered your thanks I will say one more thing.
Did you notice how "lead" disappeared when he was exposed for his silly stuff on another thread. Then "1 inch group" comes back with his insults? LOL
I gave a scenerio of the 410 with bird then 000 and 00 and then slugs.
One inch bad mouthed it, then it comes up as the scenerio to justify the 00.
I have got to tell you, I am glad the rope was long enough. I sat and waited for you.
Take care,
Harley
Roy, although I provided some scenerios, shooting in either case would likely end you up in court. Still might take the shots.
Helwan, realize that you have many(!) people telling you that birdshot is a bad idea in most cases. It limits your ability to stop an attack except under very close encounters. Their opinions also align with most professional trainers in the field.
On the flip side, you have one very strong advocate recommending birdshot based on his background (which he won't share) and some home done experiments. Many of his points are valid for extremely close encounters.
As you mentioned, the choice is yours. If you are responsible for protecting others (aka family), I hope you make the right choice.
Helwan, realize that you have many(!) people telling you that birdshot is a bad idea in most cases. It limits your ability to stop an attack except under very close encounters. Their opinions also align with most professional trainers in the field.
On the flip side, you have one very strong advocate recommending birdshot based on his background (which he won't share) and some home done experiments. Many of his points are valid for extremely close encounters.
As you mentioned, the choice is yours. If you are responsible for protecting others (aka family), I hope you make the right choice.