Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense

Harley, you seem to be dedicated to your cause and refer to having "lots of experience".

Would you care to give us a better understanding of the background and experience from which you draw? If not, I can understand that also.
 
Civil Trials

A civil trial has nothing at all to do with a criminal trial.

When I took my "gun" course for armed guard service, most of the classroom discussion was dedicated to protecting our rear-ends in civil court. The manner and method of the actual self-defense act will be scrutinized to the most extreme case. The plaintiff, the family of the person you injured or killed, will do all in their power to make you look like some blood thirsty maniac. If they show the jury some para-military type weapons, that is a strike against you.

I do not agree with this. But you are going to have a court room full of parents or kids crying that you, the "bad guy" hurt my daddy, my son, my spouse, whatever the case may be.

I carried a Ruger Security Six on duty. The instructor strongly advised against putting shells with "magnum" written on them. He said put the hottest specials in the gun, but leave the mags at home. They could make it look like that you could not wait to blow someone away.

I am a die hard, right wing conservative. I personally believe that you should be allowed to use anything you want to defend your home, espically on the inside. However, a jury may or may not agree. Remember, in a jury trial, the decision will come down to the majority ruling. If seven members give a certain verdict, that is it. There are no hung juries here.
 
When the guts are strewn across the room like they have been scooped out with a sharp shovel because the person was hit with #71/2s at 5 feet the last thing you need to worry about is shock. Believe me.
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Harley,

You assume too much.

I was a Paramedic before I was a nurse and continued to work in the field for the first five years as a nurse.

I have practiced both pre-hospital and in hospital. I have worked at LSU Med Center a trauma teaching facility and I have worked in a Level II trauma Hospital. I have worked outside the country in Central America and treated trauma there.

I have taken the Pre-Hospital Advanced Trauma Life Support. Trauma Nurse Core Curriculum (TNCC), Advanced Trauma Nursing, ATN, Course in Advanced Trauma Nursing, CATN, and I have audited and latter assisted teaching Advanced Trauma Life Support ATLS.

I have just a little experience with trauma, and I find your statements do not support a thorough understanding of trauma.

Probably for the house a 410 is really a good all rounder make sure the barrel is 18+ inches and have a stock. Great for hitting people or shoving into a loose dog prior to blowing them away. Really 410 has more power than a hand gun and the versatility of several different shells in the snout. you could start with a scatter gun round of #8s, then go for the double 00 or triple 000 and finish it off with a slug or two as they are running down the drive way because you jerked instead of squeezed, say because of your own fears and apprehension. LOL
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This is a statement that causes me to further question your expertise.

Like I stated before take some advanced shotgunning courses from teachers like Jim Cirillo (He has been there and done that), John Farnam, Mossad Ayoob, Clint Smith ext. See if they recommend high brass 7 1/2s. I have taken some of these classes and I have spoken with some of these teachers. I have yet to find one that would recommend bird shot.

I did not intend to respond because you obviously are decided and it is your responsibility to protect yourself, but when you recommended the 410 for self defense I could not stay out. The 410 would be adequate for self defense if you used slugs otherwise it is entirely inadequate.

Barrier penetration is necessary when protecting yourself and your home from time to time. Think about the home invader who ducks behind your couch or flips your table over and is now behind cover. In my house that will do him little good. I will shoot through the barrier. I understand my fields of fire and I know where my loved ones are.

Charles
 
Buckshot/Birdshot/Tennis Balls and Gelatin

Charles S,

Thanks for your comments. After the discussion turned abusive, with some folks reacting rabidly to a bit of sarcasm of mine, I elected to stop arguing.

Can't reason with folks who aren't getting the humour of the discussion. Seems your experience trumps most of the hot air, and the angry mob.

Obviously everyone will still use whatever ammunition they think is reasonable. If it is ever needed in a life and death situation, well, some will live, and others will die.

Too bad that shouting about your own superior knowledge will not necessarily stop an ignorant felon by itself. Difficult to talk someone to death.

Thanks again for the practical answers from you and from Cobray, who also seems, at least IMHO, to actually know whereof he speaks.

As to the others, best of luck, don't forget to duck, and do try to hit the target in the chest, not the back.............. :D
 
You have some good points but you are wrong.

I am going to say this. A couple of the people HERE have SOME good pointS but miss the target. Several of the writers and experts who you talk about have written on this very subject. They agree with me.

The last thing I am going to say: 250 projectiles at .11 cut them in half because you are doubling .11+.11= .22... Now 125 .22s are going into your body cavity and some will go through and some won't they will stay within.

5 inchs of penetration! LOL your heart is only 1 inch deep behind the sturnam that has become projectiles continuing with the shot.

Enough said. I have the experience, I have the know how, I have been there, I am an expert, I am, and that is the end of the conversation.

Except: every thing I have talked about I have seen. From guts on the wall to dead bodies on the ground. Persons loading their 410s the way I described and kelvar vests in shambles with just little old #6s. Under 10 feet gentleman is where most of the shooting occurs. Stand your ground, because I stand mine.

PS: edit for 1"group, Humor is in the eye of the beholder, as I stated I was tongue in cheek myself. LOL You insulted not one but two persons in your rant and now you are a groupie LOL...I will not say more about myself just because of persons like you.

Harley
 
Harley:

I cannot believe how irresponsible and wrong you are with your postings!

First, if you're implying that #6 12 gauge will penetrate ballistic vests, you should first qualify the TYPE of ballistic vest you're refrencing.

For instance, you are wrong if you're talking about a level II or greater. Level II will stop OO buckshot and slugs from a 12 gauge, 9mm, .357, and .40 caliber rounds! It will certainly stop birdshot.

Secondly, I don't care if you've seen the aftermath of shootings. Personal experiences are not scientific and there are many variables involved. The stopping power of a particular round warrants science, not your experience of the aftermath. I grant that a birdshot shooting will be bloody and cause massive surface tissue damage. Besides, unless you witnessed what happened it's moot. Your arrival on the scene at a later time does not illuminate whether the birdshot had adequate STOPPING power. For all you know the BG was shot and bled to death for 10 minutes.

As far as gelatin penetration of 5", that is assuming perfect situation. In a real life scenario, the BG may very realistically be wearing a leather or jean jacket, thick flannel shirt, possibly kevlar. All of these would dramatically reduce the penetration of the small pellets from the birdshot. Further, the gelaten fails to reproduce angle, bone matter, etc. The birdshot penetration may very well be reduced to just a really bad surface tissue damage and fail to stop the bad guy, but allow him to shoot back.

Conversely, 00 buckshot which is what I advocate, should immediately stop and drop a BG due to the MASSIVE and widespread external and internal tissue damage, wound channel, interference with vital organs, and system shock.

I'm leaving this conversation as we've all made good points that birdshot is RELIABLY INEFFECTIVE in a self-defense situation. We've failed to persuade you and I no longer care what you use b/c you've stubbornly ignored reason.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

I wish you and your family the best and hope no BGs are in your future.
 
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The last thing I am going to say: 250 projectiles at .11 cut them in half because you are doubling .11+.11= .22... Now 125 .22s are going into your body cavity and some will go through and some won't they will stay within.
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By gosh! Now I understand. I should be hunting deer with #8 1/2 shot because and if I multiply that by 6 I have I will have a diameter of .51 and this will provide all the penetration I need. LOL

Enough said. I have the experience, I have the know how, I have been there, I am an expert, I am, and that is the end of the conversation.
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I have provided some of my credentials. Please feel free to do the same.

I am going to say this. A couple of the people HERE have SOME good pointS but miss the target. Several of the writers and experts who you talk about have written on this very subject. They agree with me.
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Cites please.

BTW seeing a shooting’s aftermath, or a seeing a shooting no more makes you an expert, than does watching a surgery make you surgeon, or going to a concert a musician.

You still have to have an understanding of the underlying theory, physics and dynamics.

Your quote about doubling .11 shot size to .22 shot size shows a lack of that understanding. There are charts available in trauma that will provide your estimated penetration based upon shot size and composition. I will look for mine and see if I can find it.

Charles

Charles
 
Leadcounsel

Thanks for the last line. But I don't believe that any more then you believe me. The other lines are just more misunderstanding regarding the thread.

For example I explained about the jello and wood and tennis balls in a container with some tough outer surface. Tests I have personally done and they are mocked.

Tennis balls are like organs stronger than the jello. sticks are like bone but all is not exactly perfect, but a test anyway.

Why don't you reproduce what I have explained as the target and then come back with your findings. 223 against a watermellon? Try the #6s at 10 feet.

Within 10 feet ok? Make sure the container is on a bench about 3' off the ground. Also shoot the 1 3/8 door and take the precaution I explained earlier.

Now I will state further the smaller projectile will go through vests like 22-250 or 220 Swift 223 fmj or 218 Bee and an icepick. I have explained all this in the thread but apparently no one is reading, only disagreeing, so disagree you are still wrong.

I conducted the tests over 20 years ago and used the on going vests at that time. I also conducted tests with steel plate 1/4 up to 1" You would be surprised at the results, but you won't believe about those either, so.

I also did some tests with stun guns and tear gas. I personally talked to the Deputy chief and he drew his conclusions from my reports. They used my findings and then political pressure, (well we all know) and about disagreeing, then finding out you are right, is really what it is all about. :D

Edit. The comparison was not the best .11 x 250 or 22 x 125. But you are missing the point of smaller at twice the amount vs larger at half the amount.
10 feet remember not shooting deer. Humans at less than 10 feet.

Knowledge is power and I have the knowledge. So continue on with your stories.

Harley
 
I've already said before that I've shot birdshot into empty plastic jugs and many of the shot fail to exit the backside.

If the birdshot fails to exit a plastic just, I'm not using it for home defense.

You're not going to pursuade me otherwise. I can probably speak for everyone else that uses 00, #1, or #4 too. So why are you carrying on this argument.

I'm finished with this conversation.
 
Good points from both sides

I think we should refrain from totally denouncing Harley. His views are valid as are the proponents of buckshot. This is getting as bad as 9mm vs. .45 discussions as their is a mountain of evidence and experience proving the case for both sides. As Harley said, everyone is entitled to use whatever they chose to use depending on their philosophy and situation.

Me, I can tell you that load #4 or #6 birdshot as my first round in my HD shotgun. The rest is 00 buckshot. The reason is my house is 1,000sq.feet meaning I dont have any area that will stretch much over 25 feet. The doors to my kids room and the walls are cheap and hollow. I have neighbors on all sides of me. I would hesitate in a life and death scenario due to collaterall damage, whereas with birdshot I would be much less inclined to hesitate and thus not get shot.

My experience, not extensive like all you guys, but I am an avid hunter and outdoorsman. My preferred hunting weapon has always been a Remington 1100 for deer as well as waterfowl.

My only experience of using birdshot in a semi-defensive situation was when I shot a Rottweiler that was tearing up my pack Llamas. I grabbed the closest weapon(Rem 1100) and shot the dog once at about 10 feet distance. He died instantly and didnt make a sound, but the wound was profound and grotesque. I dont see a bad guy fairing much better. If he needs more convincing, I got 5 more rounds of 00 buck.
 
Leadcouncil

Why am I carrring on this conversation LOL...

A group of persons (groupies) have called me names and attacked my experienced position, I have explained numerous times.

So far only one person out of about 70 post has really seen the devastating effect of this load we are talking about. Besides me, and you want to argue about it along with your groupies...

1 for charles etc. Well Charles I have more experience then the persons you paid to go see and get certs. I don't do that because I end up arguing with their own lack of knowledge. Did I say I was an expert, certified in a court of law numerous times.

Thanks WOD better late then never.

Like I said in past post's I am right, the fact that I know, that is why I am so inclined to take the abuse and still be here.

Here is a scene:

Walking along with your #6s in your shotgun hunting birds and rabbits, an animal weighing 60 plus pounds attacks you, raise your shotgun trying to get to better cover moving out of harms way (you are on the path).
You shoot at the animal and it is flown sideways and does not move. A hole as big as your fist and dead. No other clues. Do the test.

Regards

Harley
 
From the "For what it's worth Department":

Here's a nice picture of a birdshot wound on another forum.

Notice, the recipient ISN'T dead as a doornail.

http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=42;t=028290;p=0

My 2 cents worth of input is this:
I've never heard too many cases of people hit at close range with buckshot that weren't stopped instantly and/or killed on the spot.

I've heard many cases that were hit with birdshot that walked away from it, and/or kept fighting.

The great thing about America is, you're free to use depleted uranium or foam rubber, at your choice.
 
You ever see someone shoot at a game bird a little too fast and a little too close?
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Yes I have been guilty of disentegrating birds, not really on game birds because I am not that fast but on starlings on slow dove and duck hunting days. I have shot them at about 10 feet and all you see are a puff of feathers like a magic trick.

I dont know Harley, but I understand his thinking. It is kind of Ironic that many of you are picking on him because he is emphasizing limiting collateral damage in a Home Defense situation. The gentleman criticizing Harley's thinking seem to disregard this fact in their argument. If I was fighting looting, raping, terrorizing thugs, then heck yeah I would grab the #00 buckshot so I can shoot through windows and cars 50yards away. The fact is we are talking about a home intrusion scenario in a neighborhood where I am loath to shoot a .22 pistol.

I am not a seasoned crime scene guru, but I have shot enough game with buckshot to know that even at close range, the majority of my game did not receive the full load, which means that the stray pellets could go into an unintended target. It is this fact I chose to use bird shot in the home. If I am errant enough to miss a man sized target at 20 feet with my bird shot, then the buckshot will settle it.

Each man to his own as far as this goes, but my decision for birdshot is based on my priority in a HD situation.

Number 1) Safety of my family
Number 2) Safety of innocents
Number 3) Taking picture and recording wound details from bad guy to guage effectiveness so that I may argue my points better on this forum.
 
This has been quite a little whirlwind here... :rolleyes:

I can understand the choice to use birdshot in a close, heavily peopled living space, but it is a very compromised defense load, suitable only when necessary by circumstances. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

I'm no expert, but from what I know, I would say that a hot 12 ga. birdshot load at 7 feet or so to COM of a moderately built man (NOT wearing a heavy leather coat) would probably take out the bad guy right now... it's certainly quite capable of that under "just the right circumstances".

On the other hand, at twice that distance or more and given a heavy leather coat, winter clothing, bodybuilder or obese type of guy, there's no way I'd even think of trying to rely on birdshot. I can't imagine how Harley would want to RELY on that either, when the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of buckshot when the barriers get thicker and the distance longer.

So Harley loads up for defense use with birdshot expecting to be up against people who aren't heavily clothed or built and they appear inside his bedroom at less than 10' range. Chances are probably decent that his birdshot may stop the guy OK.

BUT, what does Harley do if he has to go outside to try and protect someone else who is being harmed by the big bad guy and the distance is 15' to 25' and the bad guy is big, heavy, cracked up, leather clad, whatever? The birdshot he expected to work well at 7' inside his bedroom is likely to fail miserably in stopping the perp under these difference circumstances.

On the other hand, if he had loaded with 12 ga. buckshot to begin with, it would be supremely effective at 7' inside the bedroom, and still very effective at 17' down the hall, and also very effective at 27'+ in the yard against little guys and big guys, lightly or heavily dressed, sober or all hopped up.

The buckshot is simply a more reliable defense load under a wide range of circumstances. I can't see why a reasonable person doesn't understand the wisdom in choosing buckshot for defense. It just makes the most sense because you never know what circumstances you will find yourself up against. And if I knew that behind the perp was a room containing an innocent person, I'd be as disinclined to shoot birdshot as anything else. A high collateral damage-risk background is just that, no matter what the weapon or load.

Signed,

another "12 ga. buckshot kind-of-guy". :cool:
 
Hi DHart,

Resonable? Well I laid down a scenario others want to convince me I am wrong. They arn't being resonable and I am not going to be resonable either.

I explained my scenerio and gave other scenarios and agreed with them (when they changed).

But under what I think the question that was asked, by the never seen again asker. Was my thoughts, still are. Up to 25 feet I still will go with #6s or 71/2s not enough difference to worry at that footage, 8yds +

Who asked for resonable? To reason is to give in or be acceptable to a majority decision. NOT. I am banking on my experience and know how and that is it.

Civilian is not police and never will be. Military the same. Resonable tell that to President Bush.
Add in more variables, change the question, throw in armor add 100 feet and I will adapt.
But regarding the question I stand by my thoughts.
How many times do I have to say 10 feet? Ten little feet? Or ten large feet?

No biggie, be resonable and agree with me... LOL

Harley
 
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