Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense

What is Hydrostatic Shock???

The Answer:

"Hydrostatic shock is the effect commonly believed to be caused by a high velocity object entering a body, such as a bullet fired from a weapon.

The shock is described in the following way—the object will cause ordinary damage by the actual penetration, but also pass a shock wave in the surrounding tissue due to the energy of the slowing object being passed into the largely liquid material of the body (65%+). The shock wave, or sometimes competing shockwaves from multiple impacts, are believed to cause greater damage than the object itself, sometimes enough to rupture internal organs and fracture bone. Especially large objects are believed to cause hydrostatic shock by the closure of the cavity created by the object's passage.

There is a body of opinion, however, that believes hydrostatic shock is errant nonsense. The argument is based around how energy is transferred and the effects of such a transfer. Issues raised include kinetic energy vs. momentum, the rate of energy transfer, thermodynamics (kinetic energy would be transformed into heat), the speed of sound in tissue, hydrodynamic effects, 'wound tracks', and the nature of a body.

Testing in recently killed pigs (soon enough that no loss of muscle elasticity or rigor mortis could occur), shows that large amounts of tissue distruption from spherical projectiles only occurs at striking velocities somewhere between 800 and 1100 meters per second (2,500 and 3,600 feet/second). A velocity of 764 m/s (2507 ft/s) resulted in a hole barely larger in diameter than the 6 mm projectile used, while a velocity of 1116 m/s (3661 ft/s) produced a 20 by 25 mm hole in muscle. (Fackler, et al)

Some sources attempt to compare inelastic media, such as fruit and water jugs, to people, saying that the massive "splattering" effect also occurs in living flesh. This is totally contrary to the known laws of physics.

If an exerted force exceeds the tensile strength of a material, deformation and tearing occur. Because water effectively has a tensile strength of zero, any force exerted on it will deform or "tear" it (cause it to splash), discounting the effects of gravity. Human muscle tissue, however, has a tensile strength of roughly 1 to 4 MPa (145 to 580 lbf/in²); other tissues may be weaker or stronger. If the force of the "hydrostatic shock" exceeds the tensile strength of the tissue struck, then stretching or tearing of the bullet hole can occur. Lesser forces will still displace tissue, but not hard enough to cause any damage other than bruising due to blunt trauma.
"

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock
 
Hydro shock 22-250 26" barrel Bad dude

Hi
The 22-250 is one that fits the bill very well, so is the 220 swift, goes through steel(that is a mis nomer) what happens is the friction of it hitting the 3/8 plate and velocity send the hot steel from the plate mixed with the molten bullet, then it go's through the steel sending quite a bit more down the road than the original weight of the bullet.

Take one of the above and load it so the primers don't flatten but close.
Now you are getting some very high velocity, the longer the barrel the better, but of course there is a limit. FMJ is the best under these conditions.

The statement about hydrostatic shock was sarcasam :) In my above post.

Hydrostatic shock is very real and the difference between 2500 and 3600 is quite a bit (percentage) now add the additional fps that I have just suggested (into the low 4000+) and we are talking bad news.
But...The bullet is the thing, got to be able to take that kind of velocity.

PS. If you need wikipedia you have not had first hand experience.
:D
Harley
 
"PS. If you need wikipedia you have not had first hand experience."

No I dont have a first had experience of shooting someone and seeing what the Hydrostatic shock will be like, if that what you meant by first had experience. And the only reason I used wikipedia because its a reliable source and poeple cant argue on how accurate the info is. :)
 
EV1L
If you read what wikipedia is, it is very controversial. Anyone can post about the subject and they will tell you it is very controversial.

If I have knowledge that you don't have, and believe me I do.
I am not going to go to a location like wikipedia and try to convince you.

Like all of this controversy (this discussion, off topic) It is not relevent to what the person asked. :) Reread the original post.

Harley
 
A question...

I have a question about buckshot for defense. Winchester still makes expanding led shot where some manufactureres use only copper coated. As a person that has shot deer with buckshot, the led shot expands much more and causes more damage while not overpenetrating the deer. Copper coated tends to go right through, where led will often stop in the deer. Has anyone ever tested the different brands for penetration vs just throwing different sized shot (00 buck, 1 buck, etc.) at the boards?

Todd
 
Buck or Birdshot For Home Defense

From what everybody seems to understand about ammunition, seems it would be logical to assume that shells labeled as "Birdshot" "Dove Load", Quail Load" etc. were designed and assembled with, ummm shooting BIRDS in mind.

"Buckshot" is not called that because it was designed to blow doves into powder (Although I've seen that happen once or twice), but because it will most likely knock down a male deer. At least that's probably what the Ammo Makers had in mind, mebbe. Perhaps it would be smart to go with what the shells were DESIGNED for when trying to decide what to use them for.

Bottom line on home defense though, is to only use a shell, a load, or a weapon that is 99.99999% likely to be lethal at the range chosen. There are only three imperatives that matter in a home defense scenario.
1. Be prepared to use, and then USE lethal force when confronted with a home invasion situation. If the other guy is armed, he will not ask permission to kill you before trying his very best to do so.
2. Make sure that once gunfire begins, you will be the only survivor of the confrontation. In today's real world, you must be CERTAIN that you will be the only one testifying at the coroner's inquest or at the Grand Jury.
3. Once you have terminated the intruder and made sure all wounds are front to back, and have called a lawyer to deal with the next phase of your life, then put away your weapon and call 911, being sure to tell the 911 operator what you look like and where you will be when the police arrive. You do not want to be shot by mistake by some nervous rookie.

If you do all these things in the proper order, you may just possibly survive the experience.
 
Other Ammo

What if you were to use .223 ammo in a rifle. Lets say that the ammo box has a picture of a varmint on it. Would this disqualify the ammo from human use?
 
Hi Roy, thats cute I like your logic.

Roy Has a very good point. So do others.

I was viewing some of the posts and not many seem to understand the idea this fellow is asking. Home defense as in the home, as in rooms occupied by loved ones and other persons who you may care for.

Most of the buck shot and slugs are really to powerful inside a home they go through walls innocents etc. I should clairify something I notice I did not give the correct number of shot per ounce regarding 7 1/2s. I did not hit all the keys. In a 12 gauge in an ounce + of 7 1/2s you are shooting something that is just smaller than .10 and it contains close to 400 of them, more if you are shooting 1 and 1/4 ounce in 3" mags. Really look it up. Now the close range makes it a very deadly weapon and it also makes it less dangerous. If that makes sense.

Probably for the house a 410 is really a good all rounder make sure the barrel is 18+ inches and have a stock. Great for hitting people or shoving into a loose dog prior to blowing them away. Really 410 has more power than a hand gun and the versatility of several different shells in the snout. you could start with a scatter gun round of #8s, then go for the double 00 or triple 000 and finish it off with a slug or two as they are running down the drive way because you jerked instead of squeezed, say because of your own fears and apprehension. LOL

You who believe, will believe, you who don't, won't. So what, ignorance is fine but now you should know different. If you don't I will still sleep soundly.

Harley
 
Buck or Birdshot?

Roy,

What a brilliant riposte you've tossed up today! You get the "clever guy" award for the next 2 minutes, so enjoy yourself! :D

I suppose the concept of sarcasm is lost on you? Trying to point out to those naifs on the board that only a birdbrain loads birdshot for a lethal force scenario, and any case in which you fire on another human HAS TO BE a lethal force situation. Can you understand the term "Negligent Homicide"? How about "Wrongful Death Lawsuit"?

Did you also miss the parts about the after-action sling your butt will be in if you just cripple or mutilate a housebreaker whose attorney will then make your life WORSE than it is for the nitwit you shot?

Trouble with these forums is there are only a few really trying to be helpful, and just loads of smartasses just out to prove they are champs of the snappy, snippy comeback.

Try being flip with the 300 lb felon who just plowed thru your front door, see if being cute works with him. :mad:
 
Buck or Birdshot for home defense??

Hey Harlequin,

The only good point Roy has is the one on top of his head. Everybody is trying to make "cute" comments when the subject is deadly serious. If you make decisions about what load or what weapon to use because you are PLANNING ON MISSING YOUR TARGET at under 20 feet with a shotgun, then you should only be allowed to use a hammer to defend yourself. Not one of the big 20oz. ripping hammers, either, those go RIGHT THROUGH drywall.

And about your progressive load scenario, saving the last couple slug rounds to FIRE AT THE FLEEING ATTACKER RUNNING AWAY FROM YOU DOWN THE DRIVEWAY? Sounds like you are just bound and determined to spend more time in prison than your fleeing "victim"

I hope you were just "clowning around" with that statement, Mr. Harlequin, 'cause I don't know of any tactic more certain to get you locked up than shooting somebody in the back, running away. Great idea. :eek:
 
Lawsuit

You will have a law suit on your hands irregardless of the criminal aspect of your shooting.

I put myself through college working as an armed guard at a convenience store. Yes, it was an idiotic job, but it paid my bills. I had to go through a certification and qualification course to earn my "gun" card. The instructor was an ex DA.

If you ever shoot anyone, you will be in court facing the family of the person you shot. You will be sued. You will be made to look like the scum of the earth by the family's attorney. The person you shot will be made out to be a pillar of society.

One thing they will have as evidence against you is your weapon and ammunition. Remeber, the jury probably will have little or no knowledge of firearms and their applications. Imagine how you will look to them if they bring out a small, short barreled shotgun, loaded with half a dozen rounds of buckshot. They will use this to make you look like a kook. Compare that with a guy that used his bird shotgun loaded with high base pheasant loads.

Remeber, in a civil suit it comes down to a tipping of the jury towards one side or the other. Beyond a resonable doubt is not part of the outcome.
 
one inch group

Not only are you correct on some of your statements you are obnoxious to boot.

You probably know about as much about lawyering as you do about the subject matter. You like to get mouthy, hey that is fine.
I have swung a 20 + oz Hammer most of my adult life, so I could easly revert to it if needed.
Funny how do you know these things? Just clever I guess.

Yes, some of it was tongue in cheek, I have been very serious most of the time I have talked on this thread. But ignorant and obnoxious people as you have worn out my desire to communicate. So a little levity. Why don't you read the entire thread and give it a rest.

300 pound gorilla or 100 pound meth freak I feel certain I can handle the situation, can you say that? I am not one bit concerned with my abilities.
But on the other hand I would say you are.

You lost it chump, when you started calling people names so back to you.

Bud and Lou do my light weight work and keep me informed to all trespassers
Mdl 37 12 gauge does the rest.

Harley :D
 
Birdshot will stop people shot with it most of the time, so will a .22, you're limited experience means nothing to me. The problem with birdshot is that it has limited penetration, it will cause nasty wounds that are not likely to be fatal. Birdshot can blow off an arm, it can disembowl someone, but I pity you if you ever try to shoot a bodybuilder or fat person high on PCP with it, or for that matter a determined person of regular stature. It will not penetrate to vital organs, and they will very likely disregard the damage and go on to harm you.

You're playing with fire and gambling with you're life on this one, you've gotten lucky so far, but trust me if you ever go up against someone that is very determined or high on something, you will probably lose, the birdshot will fail.

You simply cannot depend on shock and disgusting surface wounds to stop someone, eventually your number might be called and you will be left holding a thunder stick with less penetration than a pellet gun.

#1 buckshot for home defense, it has enough penetration to go through an arm and still hit vitals, and causes the most wound volume for its penetration.
 
The poster that thinks that birdshot will look any different to a jury than buckshot is ill-advised. It would likely be irrelevant in a self defense situation. By this logic, one should use pillows and fight the bad guy. A good defense lawyer would crush this logic by simply saying that the homeowner prepared himself with the most efficient means of stopping a burglar and, with research, learned that it was with 12 guage buckshot and armed himself accordingly.

If it were allowed, a few photos to the jury of the tramatic looking results of birdshot damage, or the disfigured BG in the courtroom with massive surface tissue scars would be much worse than a single penetrating hole of a buckshot wound, and the BG would not even be in the courtroom to tell HIS side of the story (how his car broke down and he only came up to use the phone and found the window open...).

Besides this, in many states including Colorado, a homeowner is IMMUNE from criminal prosectution or civil suits. So, here it's a moot point.

#1 priority is stopping the BG immediately, not causing mortal wounds that may kill him in 10 minutes through blood loss. The odds of you accidently shooting someone through a wall or two are so remote as to not worry abou it. FIRST, you'd have to miss your target. SECOND, the bullet would have to cleanly go through the wall and not be stopped by a stud (about 10% of the wall) or any furniture/appliances on the other side. THIRD, it would actually have to hit somebody. If you can't hit a BG 10 feet away for whom you're AIMING at, I think the odds of you hitting a random person through a couple walls is incredibly remote!

Do an experiement and see whether birdshot will even penetrate a leather jacket at 10 feet, or heavy jean jacket. Even if it does, I suspect that it's velocity will be slowed tremendously.

Everyone here, with few exceptions, agrees that buckshot is much much better. Why do you refuse to listen to the advice of the other members?

Bottom line is to use the best tool to stop the BG.
 
This is quite a spirited discussion. For me, it is 00 buck.

I always get a kick out of people's assumption that a defensive shot will always be at short range (under 10 feet). I agree that birdshot might (!) be effective at very short distances. However, you can't always control the situation.

I think you can think of a variety of situations that might occur where distances could be much further. I can imagine situations where you might pursue the home invaders as they attempt to leave. Take for example you wake up and find them dragging your daughter/son/wife out the front door to their car. The strategy isn't close to 5 feet so your birdshot works!

Lead--your comment about not worrying about overpenetration with 00 is bad advice . . . Be sure of your target and what is BEYOND.
 
Cobray are you talking to me?

I have got to say again I have lots of experience.

I stick with my posts, you stick with yours. But please don't lecture me.
You sir are sadly mistaken. What you know about bird shot is very limited obviously. Again within the confines of a home it is very very effective and lessens the potential of over penetration to hurt loved ones and innocents.

At five to 8 feet (where most shooting occur by the way) If you hit some one in the chest with a 12 gauge (#6s this time since you have discounted #71/2s but both are considered bird shot.) we are talking major damage as in no sternum, no heart, and possably only parts of the spine left, and not much damage to your son who is in the next room (why because he is between 2 pieces of drywall and other things).

The same thing will happen with #71/2 but you don't believe it for some reason. Listen people are afraid of 165 mile an hour winds debris and other stuff flying, but you sir are discounting 1 1/8 ounce's of lead traveling at 1300 feet per second and less then ten feet away. (plus 71/2 are safer for loved ones), not much but sometimes enough.

Number 6s are .11 in size and approx 250 in an ounce along with the wad.
That is the size of a bee bee. Moving at 1300 fee a second. LOL

Muscle is nothing compared to lead traveling at that speed. Believe it. It is the truth. Go out and check it out this week-end. But I would say with the way you are talking you have not shot much or you would know better.

Enough on this topic. Good day.

Harley
 
I think my point about overpenetration was not written very well and misinterpreted as a result. My mistake.

To clarify the point, ANY effective man stopping round will necessarily penetrate MANY common barriers in the home such as drywall.

I'll reiterate a final points and then rest my case:

You wound't shoot a 100 pound deer with birdshot, why would you use it for a 200-300 pound attacker doped up on who knows what?
 
You don't seem to understand, shooting jello with tennis balls in it really doesn't tell me much. Shoot a watermelon with an Ar-15 and it will explode. So what?

Shotgun Pellet Wound Ballistics
A shotgun pellet produces wound trauma by crushing the tissue it comes into direct contact with as it penetrates. In order to produce wound trauma that will be effective in quickly stopping an attacker, the pellets must penetrate his body deeply enough to be able to pass through a vital cardiovascular structure and cause rapid fatal hemorrhage to quickly deprive the brain of oxygenated blood needed to maintain consciousness.

Shotgun pellets are classified into two general categories: 1) birdshot, of which individual pellets are typically less than .20 caliber in diameter, and 2) buckshot, which varies in diameter from .24 caliber to .36 caliber.

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.


Taken from firearms tactical.

In conclusion, your ridiculous conjecture and blind faith in birdshot may eventually end with your death. Do not expect it to create immediately life threatening wounds. Also, birdshot will penetrate multiple walls. It has a lessened chance of killing someone on the other side, but think about why that is for a few hours...

You wouldn't hunt a deer with birdshot, you wouldn't kill someone in a firing squad with birdshot, no major police department or military has used birdshot, just don't bother with it, for God's sake! leadcounsel has made some very good points that perhaps you should think about...
 
I'm still debating between #1 and #4 buck for myself. Bird shot may kill, but from looking at ballistic gelatin tests from 2-3 yards I don't believe it has enough penetration to be reliable. Plenty of people have "walking away with birdshot in them" stories too. I personally won't be trusting birdshot to stop a man. But I also won't use glasser rounds in the my pistol. Ymmv.

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/conte...ing/bird_4_rem_heavy_dove/gelatin_shot_4.html
 
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