Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense

Humm...

I Use regular old plain jane Foster slugs.

I find out which brand groups best for a particular bbl/choke and use that load for that bbl/ choke. Federal are preferred by the bone stock 870 Express near me now...

Slugs work from contact to out yonder a bit.

I figure if I hit as I am supposed to- ain't got to worry about any stray pellets going where they are not supposed to. One chunk of lead, one target down...I like simple. Math is not my strong point either. :p

Oh...I can see the groups a whole easier than them pellets, I have my Diploma from Pattern Board Univ. Do you realize how many pellets and percentages a fella has to figure to get a diploma?

Word is Denny has a Diploma from there too. Must be why he uses Slugs as well. :D

PBU Class of '73 :cool:
 
birdshot is for the birds, not the BGs.

I forget where I read it, but birdshot is ineffective at stopping an attacker.

The GOAL to self defense is to STOP an attacker RIGHT NOW, in his footsteps with as few shots as possible before he can attack you, shoot back, flee, whatever.

The KEY to stopping an attacker immediately is to cause immediate shock to his body by creating massive internal tissue damage and large wound channels that interfere with essential body functions (heart, lungs, ateries, spine, kidneys, liver, etc.).

Typical military handgun and rifle rounds do this very well. Buckshot mimics several handgun cartridges with deep penetration (for instance, getting hit by buckshot may be comparable to multiple .380 rounds) and creating massive tissue damage and striking vital organs beneath the surface of the skin.

Birdshot, however, is ineffective because:
1. It loses velocity and energy quickly
2. It 'only' causes massive surface tissue damage and stops below the surface of the skin, failing to interfere with the vital bodily organs. I think of it as a bad case of "road rash" on a motorcycle. It's gonna really hurt and can be life threatening, but it won't necessarily kill you instantly.
3. See www.theboxotruth.com for "steel doors." Birdshot is the only round tested that fails to even go through a common steel interior door. While I don't know for sure, I suspect that birdshot would fail to adequately penetrate an attackers leather jacket, jean jacket, whatever else.

Birdshot may be effective at killing him in 10 minutes as he bleeds to death, but that may be too late. You want immediate and lethal stopping power in one shot.

From www.theboxotruth.com regarding birdshot:
Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.
 
Fatal Shotgun Accidents

I found a website that catalogs hunting accidents. It even lists the firearm used and if the accident was fatal.

The website is www.ihea.com

You will see that not all rifle accidents were fatal. You will also see a couple bird hunting accidents that were fatal. One involved dove hunting. I assume buckshot or slugs were not being used.
 
You will see that not all rifle accidents were fatal. You will also see a couple bird hunting accidents that were fatal. One involved dove hunting.
Click to expand...

There is a substantial difference in ultimate fatality and immediate stoppage.

Your welcome to hunt brown bear with a 243. I have no doubt that with proper bullet choice and placement the bear will die; you may die in the before the bear does.

I am a hunter and I have killed more than a few deer. Try this test, would you shoot a 100 pound deer with it? Then don't shoot a 200# man with it. Use a little common sense.

Charles
 
No Hope?

If I wake up in the middle of the night and confront an intruder in my bedroom, and I fire a couple of rounds of high base 6's into his abdomen, are you telling me I am SOL?

You are a nurse. My wife is undergoing major chronic illnesses. I have the utmost respect for nurses. I have learned that you guys do more to keep patients alive and going then any MD.

You should however know that there is a big difference in shooting animals and shooting people. That big variable is shock. Shock can turn an otherwise nonfatal wound into a life and death battle. Shock does not seem to be such a problem with animals.
 
In surprise scenarios, you may only get to shoot your gun one time. Make sure that your are shooting the best possible self defense man stopping round.

Mortally wounding the attacker does you no good if he can still attack you with his gun, knife, or jumping on you and bleeding his HIV all over you while you wrestle with him.

Look, just get buckshot (my research says 0, or 00) like the overwhelming evidence supports and rest easy.

I don't understand really why this is a debate.
 
You should however know that there is a big difference in shooting animals and shooting people. That big variable is shock. Shock can turn an otherwise nonfatal wound into a life and death battle. Shock does not seem to be such a problem with animals.
Click to expand...

I have been a nurse for over a decade, almost 15 years. Shock will stop someone quickly, but it cannot be counted on.

That big variable is shock.
Click to expand...

I have had gunshot victims walk into the ER. I believe that if you induce shock you will stop the person, I do not believe that you can reliebly induce shock without penetration. As I stated earlier; I have experience in this area. I have worked, in the past, in Shreveport, LA where I have seen and cared for numerous gunshot wounds.

Based upon my experience I think that birdshot is not reliable. I have seen too many instances where people shot with birdshot did not stop what they were doing, some even drove themselves to the hosptial. I am looking for RELIABLE, rapid incapacitation. I do not believe that that can be achieved utilizing bird shot.

My 2 cents, you want to ignore my experience that is up to you. I will not trust bird shot. I feel so strongly about this that I carry a handgun when I am bird hunting.

I would sugest that any who wish should get some advanced training like Gunsight, Thunder Ranch, ect.

Charles
 
Come on

Think about what you are saying here.
1 1/8 ounce of lead moving at 1300 feet per second and still in its wad. The wad holder is still wrapped around this lead and you are telling me it will only make skin deep penetration? LOL :eek:

The wad usually does not totally seperate for about 15 feet. Just go to a range and check it out. The wad alone will go into a person at that range.

Reread my post, I have personally done tests. 1 3/8" wooden doors are quite a bit harder than jeans and leather. At 5 feet you can stick your hand through the door, the gut of someone would be similiar. In a house where loved ones are at and behind other walls this is the prudent round of choice.

Bird shot is not for the weak of stomach. :eek: Some of the shot stays in the person so he has absorbed all the energy and it is not all passing through.
Slugs are just that one round, not 70 or thereabouts hitting the target at say 'less then 10 feet along with the wad'.

You guys are making me think we need more laws to protect yourselves from yourselves. LOL LOL No actually it is sad :barf:

Harley
 
When I have used birdshot and shot plastic milkjugs the birdshot generally penetrates only one side of the empty jug and most of the birdshot can be recovered in the milkjug. Thats equivalent to a pellet gun and I'm not interested in using it for home defense.

If that's your weapon of choice, best of luck to you.
 
1 1/8 ounce of lead moving at 1300 feet per second and still in its wad. The wad holder is still wrapped around this lead and you are telling me it will only make skin deep penetration? LOL
Click to expand...

That is not what I stated. I stated that it did not cause rapid incapacitation.

The wad usually does not totally seperate for about 15 feet. Just go to a range and check it out. The wad alone will go into a person at that range.
Click to expand...

I do not disagree I have personally removed the wad from the skin.

I am sure that your testing of inanimate objects make you more of an expert than anyone with real life experience in gunshot wounds.

Like I stated before get some real training by professionals. I have, and see what they recomend.

Hey you are responsible for your own protection not me. I have made my choices based upon real life shootings I have personally cared for. I know what a shotgun can do. I have seen open abdominal wounds from knifes, handguns, rifles and shotguns (Penetrating trauma is the term we use).

The key is not the ultimate death of the intruder through exangination. It is rapid or instant incapacitation.

Charles
 
Charles

When the guts are strewn across the room like they have been scooped out with a sharp shovel because the person was hit with #71/2s at 5 feet the last thing you need to worry about is shock. Believe me.

You see the ones that get to the Operating room not the ones that go to the morgue.

Harley
 
#71/2s.............see, that equates to number 35.5 shot, pretty fine stuff.




Kidding aside, all of it will kill you, sometimes. Why chance it? I really could give to craps what you use, but Im using the stuff thats designed for it. I shoot clays with #7 1/2s, and scrotes with #00.
 
Those who think that birdshot is adequate for self defense are missing the POINT.

The POINT is that adequate self defense requires immediate massive INTERNAL tissue damage and interruption with KEY vital organs.

While birdshot will, granted, probably cause alot of surface tissue damage and blood loss, it is inadequate at stopping assailants with any regularity, particularly drugged assailants who aren't feeling pain. Birdshot will, however, penetrate up to two sheets of drywall whereas 00 penetrates 8 sheets according to www.theboxotruth.com

Any search on the internet will result in the same advice; don't rely on birdshot for self defense.

Is it lethal? Yes. Can it be used for self defense? Of course. Am I going to trust MY life to it. Absolutely not! I'm not interested in the assailant dying in the emergency room. If there is an assailant assaulting me, I want a one shot stopping round. You may not get a chance for a second shot.

I trust MY LIFE to calibers that will IMMEDIATELY stop an attacker in his tracks due to the penetration, velocity, bullet expansion, and/or massive internal penetration and tissue damage and would channels, such as 00 buckshot, slugs, .40, and .223.
 
Background is a must

I am advocating this in your home at close quarters because as has been pointed out the other stuff really penetrates and goes through stuff it is not leaving all the energy in the suspect.

00 buck is my call for police work or outside shooting where the distance gets greater, but the background really is a needed concern. As was stated the slug as a one round into the suspect is better then 4 in and 8 somewhere else.

Shoot what you want. I have seen all the wounds I want for a life time.

I like paper and cans and plastic jugs that go woosh. For real action watermelons at 20 feet or you can use the sledgeomatic at 2 feet LOL. :D

Harley
 
Real pics of (shotgun wounds)

wound0006a.jpg


wound0006b.jpg


wound0006c.jpg


***LINK***
 
Thanks for the web and view

Hi,
I remember the time frame and the tests that were done by the FBI.

Interesting statement in the article, I find that a give away.

Lets just say that all the gun manufactors and the manufactors of ammo are in this conspiracy to decieve the public. They had many persons on their payroll to decieve the public and the shooters who annually killed so many things they started an outrage by the Enviromentalists, is very much fabrication.

The 10mm, and 357 were designed to get around the large slow moving projectile that was on the scene (the old 45 auto and 44 spl).

And of course the 9mm which is the most popular hand gun cartridge of all time is not worthy of any consideration.(world wide)

I have seen so many bullet wounds and death by gunfire, some die because of shock, some die because they think they ought to and others die because they bled out from a shot to the leg and it hit the artery, or the puny 38 stopped a man in his tracks and he was dead before someone could get to him.

The term Hydrostatic shock that turn organs to jelly, are also bogus?

If it goes thru the object it does not stop the object. You get hit in the lower abdoman and if it stops in your spine or pelvis you are going down now.

FMJ is and was designed because it produced less trauma. Geneva rules remember. But this webpage is proof positive? Good stuff but all does not fit so neat in the box.

A slug that hits a vest causes so much blunt force trauma they bleed internally and the shock to the system is real. The 223 will go through the vest the heart and the spine and kill the person 5 feet behind them (FMJ).

Let's see the armor piercing round that goes thru a car door and then some of it hits the driver in the chest cavity goes thru him and kills the passenger (in the head) and lodges in the other door HMMM.

I find the webpage a good one and it has information that I would consider good. Thanks for sharing.

The picture of the person who was shot is a very terrifying vivid example of what happens to persons who are as we say shot. Superficial you say? OK!

I feel that my posts are accurate to the question asked in the initial post.
Much of what has been discussed is off topic.

I also feel that most of the persons that say they will kill a human at the time of the shooting will be very hesitant. That's good.

Then you have the new generation of cowards who shoot indescriminatly into crowds and kill innocents. These are the true terrorist's in our society and we have persons who want them to have rights,??? Interesting our society.

Harley
 
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