Buckshot vs. Birdshot for home defense

The point you seem to be missing is that you are planning for someone wearing only a wifebeater and standing no farther than 10 feet from you. Most of us have already agreed that under such circumstances, 12 ga. birdshot *may* serve you well enough... in that very limited scenario.

What is KEY is that you can't predict what you will face, nor at what distance. You limit your plan to a scantily clad, light-weight perp at ten feet, but you are just as likely to find yourself up against two or three really beefy bruisers, possibly heavily clothed, possibly very numbed with drugs or alcohol, and you may have to shoot them at 20 feet, 25 feet, perhaps even 30 feet... you really have no idea what you're going to face.

Under that set of circumstances, birdshot *might* save your bacon, but the odds are greatly against you. Your stubborn choice to stick with birdshot may very well lead to your demise. Funny thing is I would have expected a more reasoned, balanced approach from a former marine, but that's obviously an unreasonable expectation.

So why set yourself up for failure by planning for an extremely limited set of circumstances when you are quite likely to face something significantly different?

You appear to be so fixed on seeing things from only your narrow, very limited perspective and so intent on defending your viewpoint that you have developed a "logic-tight compartment" around this issue and cannot recognize the merits of better choices. But your choices and actions determine your own fate, not ours, so all I can say is good luck. Hope you don't need it.

I've got an idea just for your consideration... have a few shotguns loaded and available to you... one with #7 birdshot in case a skinny, scantily-clothed perp presents himself right inside your bedroom. And another shotgun with #6 birdshot positioned by the bedroom door so you can use that against a slightly larger perp who might appear just down the hall from your bedroom door... then a third shotgun with some 00 buckshot to grab, if you have time, after realizing that your problems are just a bit larger than the solo, skinny, lightly-dressed perp you envisioned appearing beside your bed. :confused:

I propose that other folks might load with #1, 0, or 00 Buck and be better prepared for a wider range of possibilities.

You are a remarkable person indeed and this thread has far surpassed anything most of us could ever have imagined happening! :rolleyes: You have created quite a humorous thread here!
 
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Dhart

I appreciate your thoughts I have given way to a lot of the scenerios.
I also have stuck with the original request of post #1.

You guys crack me up, if you sway away from the original post as has happened (and I have given on that numerous times) read what I have said with out the insults. Insults to me means you just lost the match, you are barking up the wrong tree amigo with that one.

I have given ground and then come back to explain the original post.
I made my decision on my expertise. Right from the get go. No room for change on the original Idea of about 10 feet. But with other scenerios I will give ground, already have.

So enjoy the thread I have. You are a real piece of work Dhart. I truly would like to see you face to face. But unfortunatly that will never happen.

Harley
 
All that I can say is that after all these posts, all this evidence, you are a damn fool. You are free to pick whatever ammo you wish, just glad its not me your protecting.

It boils down to this, wheter you see it or not; Birdshot MIGHT work in a FEW scenarios. Buck WILL MOST LIKELY work in MOST scenarios. If you are a gamble, more power to you.
 
I Wonder

I wonder how many Hollywood screenwriters are responding to this topic. Most in-home, justifiable shootings I have read about, involve some skinny ghetto kid trying to get valuables to take care of his dope addiction. I also wonder if some of you have plans how to defend yourselves in case your home comes under an attack from Ninjas.
 
Ninjas?? are they really out there? uh-oh...hide under the bed?
true most home invasions are not big Arnold Schwartzennegar (spelling?) type guys pumped up on meth or whatever the whackos are using now, the type of guys who could head butt a bull elephant and have less of a head ache than John Travolta after head butting the bull in the movie Michael. most home invasions are younger males in one of two situations; either they are trying to steal jewelry and tv's for a drug habit OR they are teenagers who chose a very bad way to have some friday night fun (gang initiation fits both of those).
however it is not unheard of for a methed out 10 foot 600 pound mountain of a man to break into a home, or for a serial killer to pick Joe Nobody as his next target for whatever reason one of his multiple personalities picked.
no matter what the reason someone is breaking in, I personally wouldnt want to sit down with them and discuss their reasons, then if need be shoot them. I also wouldnt want to use birdshot at 30 feet hoping it is a crack addicted teenager looking for his next fix. I will use buckshot incase it is the big bad guy, knowing it will be even more effective on the little whimp.
you also have to take into consideration HOW you meet the threat. if someone breaks into my home during the night I will know it before they get to the bedroom (unless they hop the fence and come through a bedroom window) because my german shepherd barks if someone walks past our house during the night. I will grab my shotgun, close the bedroom door, wife will call 911 while I have the shotgun aimed at the doorway. it starts to open I will get my sights on the BG and fire. oh...I also have a 15 million candle power spotlight aimed at the door, ready to turn on if someone tries to come through, this will blind them and should atleast buy me the time for a second shot if I need it.
the things in my house are replacable, I have home owners insurance for that. the lives in my bedroom (me, my wife, my 2 dogs) are not replacable. I will not go hunting a bad guy in my house but if he comes into the bedroom he will get hit hard with some buckshot.
 
-might just want to practice that spotlight gig a few times in the middle of the night. You are likely to blind more that the guy opening your door.

Not sure what state you are in but shooting a guy for opening your bedroom door, especially if he is unarmed and no verbal warnings could be a bit of a problem.
 
have practiced the spotlight and it is bright but far from blinding when behind it. and yeah I left that out, there would deffinetly be some verbal warnings such as "I have gun, police are on their way, I will shoot if I have too." plus probably some cuss words thrown in and never been in a situation where I have felt a need to shoot a person so cant say for sure...might be some panic in my voice. there will deffinetly be some loud barking from the dogs, and the bedroom door has a lock on it so hed have to force it open.
also have a friend and neighbor who is a state cop who has helped me with planning this strategy to have the best chance of survival for me and my wife, least chance that I WILL have to fire and least chance of a lawsuit or criminal charges. of course no plan is without flaws and no plan ever works perfectly.
I know I left a few points out in my home defense plan, the main point was that I will not go LOOKING for the bad guy, he will have to come looking for me KNOWING that I armed and ready and will have to force his way through the door prepared to face a very large guard dog and a gun. meaning that the vast majority of home intruders would not harm me or get harmed by me in my home. I dont anticipate a professional assassin or terrorist assault team storming my home in the near future, and wouldnt trust birdshot against an assailant in my home. sure it might kill them or hurt enough to make them leave. if they retreat you have lawsuits. buckshot will most likely work against any intruder. I'll stick to buckshot.
 
Lillysdad, I am protecting your daughter who

with keener hearing then the old man, might have wandered into harms range without you knowing it and is in another spot then the one you are thinking she is. After it goes thru a few other things then just the BG is now the recipient of your over kill in a house.

Do the test and thanks for the insult, do you talk to your daughter the same way?

Harley
 
Re:panzer426

Killing or wounding have nothing to do with a lawsuit. You will be sued either way unless the attacker is an orphan with no relatives or family at all. The weapon and ammunition you use for your defense will be part of the civil trial no matter what.
 
You will be sued either way unless the attacker is an orphan with no relatives or family at all.
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Roy, I am not sure where you live, but I don't believe that to be true in Texas. As a matter of fact I believe that civil lawsuits in Texas where the attacker was shot in a house he was breaking into are very rare.

I can ask my wife to do a LexisNexis search on the subject. I am not certain of this, just going by the information provided in my concealed carry class.

In any event if you are sued, to some extent you have lost, by that I mean even if you win you have had to hire an attorney, spend your and/or you insurance companies money and your time to defend yourself.

I think the most prudent course of action is to know your local laws, your state laws, comply with them and do not act in a manner that gives a bad impression, and again as I stated before get some professional training. I cannot stress how important professional training is.

Sorry for the length. I certainly am not an expert in the legal field..

Charles
 
Re: Charles S.

I do not know if Texas law had a civil immunity clause in it for defensive shooting. But wouldn't that apply to killing and wounding. I do not think any state would have any law that would promote killing, even though for some BG's that would be what they deserved.

Unless a state has specific laws granting lawsuit imminity, you could be sued by anyone for just about anything. Our state has a Good Samaritan law. If you attempt giving first aid to someone and it doesn't go well, you are free from civil action.

I believe some of the folks on this websire live in some fantasy world. They think that if the person dies, no civil recourse is available to the BG"s family. If they wound the intruder, they will get sued. I know of no laws in any state that state that death is a civil suit immunity in itself.
 
We are kind of off topic, but oh well this thread has drifted quite a bit anyway.

I do not know if Texas law had a civil immunity clause in it for defensive shooting. But wouldn't that apply to killing and wounding.
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Texas does not have a civil immunity clause for defensive shootings, but those states that do do apply that no matter if the attacker killed or wounded.

I did check with my wife, there have been a couple of civil lawsuits in Texas where the person breaking in to the house sued the homeowner for shooting them, but the plaintiff did not win. She could not find a single case in which when the shooting was justified the plaintiff won.

My wife, who is an expert, said it would be unlikely for a jury in Texas to find for the plaintiff if he was breaking and entering and the shooting was justified. She also stated that the individual in question would have a hard time trying to find an attorney to take the case.

Unless a state has specific laws granting lawsuit imminity, you could be sued by anyone for just about anything.
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True

That is true, but you either have to bring the action yourself or find an attorney to take the case. Again unlikley, in the case of breaking and entering and a justified shooting.

Our state has a Good Samaritan law. If you attempt giving first aid to someone and it doesn't go well, you are free from civil action.
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This is true in Texas also.

I believe some of the folks on this websire live in some fantasy world.
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In this you and I are in 100% agreement. LOL

They think that if the person dies, no civil recourse is available to the BG"s family. If they wound the intruder, they will get sued. I know of no laws in any state that state that death is a civil suit immunity in itself.
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I guess no one is ever sued after an individual dies. LOL

I agree with your principals, and I think we should all be cognizant of the laws and the potential to get sued.

I think the best way to prepare for the eventuality of using a gun in self defense is to get professional training. (I kind of sound like a broken record don't I).

Charles
 
Re:charles S

Even though we do not agree on the initial premise of this thread, you seem to be one of the few here that understands the morale and legal implications of shooting someone. I really believe that some of the other responders look at shooting a person as some sort of video game. Unfortunately, real life does not have a reset button.
 
Roy,

I really believe that some of the other responders look at shooting a person as some sort of video game.
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I really hope you are wrong about that, but I am afraid you are not.

Unfortunately, real life does not have a reset button.
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Before anyone picks up a gun for self defense one should look at the moral and ethical implications of their choice.

Good luck,

Charles
 
Roy:

My state of Colorado provides immunity for lawful defensive shootings in ones dwelling. The relevant CRS is below.

As for the lawsuit, if you live in a state where you are immune it's a moot point IF YOU kill the perpetrator and he cannot give his FALSE version of the story to the police. The problem arises where you might otherwise have immunity BUT the BG lies to the police raising doubts about whether your shooting was rightful or wrongful. If he is convincing, you may face BOTH criminal prosecution AND civil suits. If you are justified in shooting, better that he leaves in a bag.

18-1-704.5. Use of deadly physical force against an intruder.
(1) The general assembly hereby recognizes that the citizens of Colorado have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.
(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 18-1-704, any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including deadly physical force, against another person when that other person has made an unlawful entry into the dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person has committed a crime in the dwelling in addition to the uninvited entry, or is committing or intends to commit a crime against a person or property in addition to the uninvited entry, and when the occupant reasonably believes that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant.
(3) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from criminal prosecution for the use of such force.
(4) Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including deadly physical force, in accordance with the provisions of subsection (2) of this section shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the use of such force.
 
Not sure what state you are in but shooting a guy for opening your bedroom door, especially if he is unarmed and no verbal warnings could be a bit of a problem.
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Jeez. Even here in California that's not a worry. Someone illegally comes into your house here, the presumption is that you have legitimate fear of death or serious bodily harm.
 
Re:gunsnrovers

Can you site tthe California Penal Code that backs up your claim?

I have looked it up. It is very vague, to say the least. It leaves alot of interpetation open to the prosecutors.
 
California Penal Code

First I called our county DA's office. They told me that they could not comment of the penal code. I then called our county Sheriff's Office homicide division. A nice detective explained things to me.

She agreed that the Californai Penal Code addressing justifiable homicide is vague. It is that way to give the DA's office latitiude in prosecution. A person entering your house, in California, does not automatically immune you to prosecution. All the circumstances are investigated and weighed. You shoot someone in your home in this state, all your ducks better be in a row,

I realize that this in now way off topic. However, being a Californian, I want to make sure my fellow state gun owners do not find themselves in hot water due to some unfactual information.
 
That's why if you shoot someone in your home,they better end up in a box or their version WILL differ from yours and it WILL increase your odds of prosecution and civil suits.

Hence, use a real man stopper like buckshot and not something that will maim him like birdshot.
 
Bucks and Birds and Castles

Best civil liability exception law on the books just got enacted in Florida, by Satan's brother, Jeb Bush, working hand in glove with the liberal's other most favorite enemy, NRA/ILA, who helped the Florida Legislature draft the law. The "Your Home is Your Castle" legislation specifically establishes that any intruder inside your home, or breaking in to a vehicle you own and are occupying at the time, may be met with lethal force with no requirement that you prove any of the usual "in fear for your life" stuff that most other states still have in their laws. Florida also has a "Will Issue" CCW law that mandates a citizen's right to carry unless he is a felon. No discretion, like the setup that has kept almost every Maryland gun owner from getting a permit if the local police don't feel like giving you permission. Here almost all permits go to security cops or store owners who handle over $25,000 worth of cash on a daily basis, and those are limited carry, only OK when going to and from a bank deposit.
What a place! Homeowners' protected against invasion, mandatory issue of carry permits to honest citizens, sunshine, oranges, electronic voting machines that favor Republicans (because you can't screw with the results), its like California without the nuts! :D
 
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