Blood Thirsty Pack of Dogs

[MLeake]

FightingBard, it always amazes me that people who have the least experience with animals make the strongest statements about their potential behavior. Happens quite a lot, in my experience.

(I've had dogs most of my life; my family has owned cats as well; for the past several years, I've been with a lady who has several horses; she grew up on a farm with horses, hogs, cattle, and a variety of other animals; my sister and I have volunteered at shelters; etc.)

My little Jack Russell terrier loves people, and is quite friendly. She does not love, and is not friendly, with the following: moles, rats, mice, spiders, roaches, lizards, frogs, butterflies. She has killed all of those. She hasn't eaten any of them, that I'm aware of. She hasn't killed a squirrel, yet, but she really, really wants to. If she didn't have a bad right hip, I'm sure she'd have been up a few trees after them. (Bone spur as a pup; vet removed the ball joint part of her femur; muscle tone is all that holds the leg in place, and yet she kills lots and lots of small animals.)

When I was a kid, my friend's Siberian Husky got loose, and broke into another neighbor's rabbit hutch. Killed every last rabbit. My friend's parents paid for the rabbits, and also had to place the dog on a farm somewhere.

In my best friend's neighborhood, outside Knoxville, a Boston Terrier (of all things) was roaming the neighborhood, chasing kids, and attacking small animals left and right. It actually killed a couple of other small dogs in the neighborhood. Blount County animal control is a joke. The Boston's owners could not be convinced that their dog was a hazard. It showed up at my friend's place one day and went straight for his Jack Russell / Basenji mix. My friend intercepted it, and kicked it like a football. (He'd have shot it, but that would not have been safe on his street - too many houses.) The Boston avoids his part of the neighborhood, now.

Don't even get me started on cats - and I like cats. But you know, when a kitten lies on its back, and holds a ball of yarn or other toy with its front paws, while kicking at it with its back paws - it's actually practicing gutting another animal. And when a dog shakes a stick or a toy, its practicing neck breaks.

Loving animals is great. Putting them on pedestals is unwise.

 

[AK103K]

Finally, a human life is worth that of 1,000,000+ dogs. Those who think otherwise need to have their heads examined.

That all depends on who's who.

I always found it harder to lose a dog, than I did a lot of people. Around here, if you shot one of our dogs, and we were present, you'd likely be found DRT of multiple gunshot wounds in a mix of calibers. Self defense of course, I mean, you did shoot first.

If we werent there, and my wife found out later you did it, I can pretty much guarantee, it would not be as pleasant.

 

[MLeake]

AK103K, to a point, I agree with you. I won't advocate shooting people over a dog in an online forum...

OTOH, OnwardAllusion, I've run into a lot of people, over the years, who are not worth a single dog. I've run into a lot of people whom I barely consider to be people.

Take the guy in Thailand who forces small kids to beg in the streets, or worse, then bring him all their earnings. Is he worth a million dogs? Is he worth a cockroach?

There are a lot of people out there, whose value is less than zero.

 

[Onward Allusion]

aarondhgraham
I did talk to the neighbor,,,


Again I ask,,,
Should I have waited until the dog bit my 79 year old dad?

No, you shouldn't have waited until the dog bit your father. I would have went from talking to the neighbor to peppering the dog to shooting the dog.

 

[MLeake]

aaron, I can understand why you took the action you did, but I also think an intermediate level of force might have been preferable.

Dogs tend to figure out when places aren't good for their well-being. Odds are, if you'd sprayed/maced it, it would not have returned.

I also know of cases where things have gotten very, very nasty after the shooting of a dog. Your situation didn't go that way, which is good, but there were decent odds it could have. (Not necessarily violence, but vandalism would be a pretty common response.)

Of course, you might not have had spray or other methods available to you.

Given the same circumstances (dog on the doorstep barring exit), I wouldn't have access to spray, either. But I would have access to birdshot or a .22 to the flank (trying to inflict pain without hitting anything vital); or a cup of scalding water; or a spray bottle with some vinegar, etc.

I'd personally prefer to start at a level below killing, given the option.

Now, if the dog were actively charging me, and I were outside the house, and if I really thought it would bite...

 

[aarondhgraham]

Honestly gentlemen,,,

I saw no need to take a chance.

Not to sound too melodramatic,,,
But the dog was a clear and present danger.

Your proposed actions could easily have solved the problem,,,
My course of action was a definite sure thing.

Now, if it were just me,,,
I might have tried something non-lethal,,,
But I live over an hour away from my dear old Pappy,,,
I didn't want to get the cell phone call that he had been mauled.

This was a large dog marking out his territory,,,
You had to have been there to appreciate the threat.

Aarond

 

[Onward Allusion]

MLeake
AK103K, to a point, I agree with you. I won't advocate shooting people over a dog in an online forum...

OTOH, OnwardAllusion, I've run into a lot of people, over the years, who are not worth a single dog. I've run into a lot of people whom I barely consider to be people.

Take the guy in Thailand who forces small kids to beg in the streets, or worse, then bring him all their earnings. Is he worth a million dogs? Is he worth a cockroach?

There are a lot of people out there, whose value is less than zero.

We all have run across those types of people at one time or another. Yes, those types are not worth the air they breathe.

However, I'm not specifically referring to "those" types of people. If I see someone being mauled by a dog or dogs, my first reaction would be to stop it even if it means killing the dog. I'm not going to stop and ask if he's a sinner worthy of damnation and then take action. This is where my philosophy of "a person is worth a 1,000,000+ dogs" comes into play.

 

[MLeake]

aaron, you got censored? Hard to believe; wonder what the checker thought you typed, but I'll bet it was actually legit.

I'm not trying to criticize you directly, as I'm sure you felt you did what you had to do. But, should it ever come up again, some options could exist. The point here isn't to slam you for what you did, but to present possible options should a similar situation ever repeat.

Situation: dog is outside, I'm inside.

Block off the entryway with a piece of furniture, before opening exterior door. Zap dog around makeshift barricade with deterrent of choice.

In my case, an oak rocking chair would make a good barrier. Dog won't go over it or under it quickly; if it tries, that's when it gets shot.

Question: did you inform animal control that the neighbor's dog wouldn't let you leave the house? While it would be hard to believe they wouldn't respond quickly to that, I do know of a place or two where I could believe that might happen.

Question: did you have reason to believe the dog would come back and bother your father again, if you ran it off one time? (That would be another valid reason for escalating quickly, IMO.)

 

[MLeake]

Onward, that would depend, too.

I've seen people provoke dogs; when those types get bitten, that's just too bad.

I've also seen dogs move in to protect their owners. Just be careful you don't shoot a dog that's actually defending against an attacker.

Dog owner might mistake you for another attacker, and if the dog owner is armed, well...

Now, if I saw a pack attacking a person; or an aggressive dog attacking some old lady, well that's a different story.

It's just that most "attacks" I've seen, were cases where the person had it coming.

Edit: the two times I got bitten, I had it coming. Though not deliberately, in one case I hurt the dog (it had arthritis, and I was too young to understand). In the other, I got an overgrown puppy too riled up, playing rough, and I panic-flnched when it grabbed my hand. If I hadn't ripped my hand out of its mouth, odds are its teeth wouldn't have even broken the skin.

But I've seen kids who used to poke a fenced-in dog with sticks, or throw rocks at dogs; amazingly, their parents complained when those dogs came over the fence or broke their collars, and bit a kid.

And, as I've said before, if one of my dogs bites you, odds are decent you should fear me, too, because you'll have had to do something serious to them in order to get them to bite.

 

[Onward Allusion]

aarondhgraham
Honestly gentlemen,,,
I saw no need to take a chance.<SNIP>

Listen, you took action that you thought was right to protect your dad. People like me can armchair quarterback it for a dozen Mondays. The bottom line is that many people, myself included, would have reacted in a similar way if an elderly family member was in the same situation.

 

[Onward Allusion]

MLeake
Onward, that would depend, too.

I've seen people provoke dogs; when those types get bitten, that's just too bad.

I've also seen dogs move in to protect their owners. Just be careful you don't shoot a dog that's actually defending against an attacker.

Dog owner might mistake you for another attacker, and if the dog owner is armed, well...

Yup - it all comes back to (too often used phrase) situational awareness....

 

[serf 'rett]

I’ve been sewn up two different times from dog attacks. Probably have been bitten a half a dozen other times, but didn’t get ripped up enough to need the needle and catgut. Had to climb a tree to escape a pack of feral dogs once – let me assure you I could NOT do crap with the bow and arrow when they came after me. Learned a lot about dogs while working in door to door sales one summer and by the end of my tour, I became somewhat astute on sorting out Fluffy from Fangs whenever I encountered them. I would have been bitten many more times, if I didn’t have a bulky hard sided sales case; the case had some impressive scars by September.

I’ll not pretend to give advice on which is the best weapon – rifle, spray, high capacity pistol, shotgun – I’m sure each has their own merits in specific situations; however, I will say my personal experience makes me believe you DO NOT want the dog(s) to be close before action is taken. Things happen really fast once the dog is trying to drag you down or jumping for your throat.

As for the kneeling suggestion, you might want to add praying to the kneeling. You need to pray that heaven will accept someone who’s participating in lunacy. I wouldn’t even find a big knife very comforting in multi dog encounter.

There was one time an eight member pack came for me and my brother while we were walking down the railroad tracks. The pack spotted us, split up and was working toward at us from several directions. I’m glad that we were routing to, instead of from, the dove field; i.e., we had pockets bulging with birdshot shells. The pack stayed with us for about 300 yards before the alpha decided to close the distance, but the dog appeared to have experience because he shied away when the shotgun was pointed at him. We didn’t shoot the dogs but later wished we had.

A few months later, our pet dog (a Sheppard mix) came home with a bullet hole in his flank. The neighbor had shot him while he was running cows with the feral pack. Since we couldn’t break him of his bad habits he eventually went MIA (it was rumored that the neighbor’s marksmanship had improved.)

 

[AK103K]

If I see someone being mauled by a dog or dogs, my first reaction would be to stop it even if it means killing the dog.

No argument there. Then again, same goes for people. There really is no difference.

I've also seen dogs move in to protect their owners. Just be careful you don't shoot a dog that's actually defending against an attacker.

Dog owner might mistake you for another attacker, and if the dog owner is armed, well...

Which was basically my point as well.

 

[8shot357]

Be prepared! That's it.

 

[output]

Reading this article I concluded with 5, or more dogs out for blood, unless I start shooting at 50 yards I'm dead meat, and my J-Frame will not cut it. I would like to hear some ideas, thoughts and maybe experiences if you live in a community where similar threat by a dog pack, or other serious animals was involved. I would like the responses to consider the older, less able body citizen ... young bucks seem to possess super powers I don't.

Hook,

I see these questions popup fairly frequently. I often do not chime in.

Here are some statists that were taken directly from the CDC.org (Center for Disease Control and Prevention)

- About 4.5 million people are bitten by dogs each year.
- Almost one in five of those who are bitten: a total of 885,000: require medical attention for dog bite-related injuries.
- In 2006, more than 31,000 people underwent reconstructive surgery as a result of being bitten by dogs.

The above statistics show that there is definitely reason to be concerned with being bitten or attached by one or multiple dogs.

As a dog trainer, I recommend carrying pepper or bear spray. If you are being attacked by multiple dogs I do not recommend using lethal force (firearm) in an urban environment there are just way too many things that can and probably will go wrong.

Most dogs have a faster reaction time than humans and when attacking they will go after just about anything that moves “fast” especially your hands and legs. Remaining still and as calm as possible in most cases will be your best bet from my own experience(s). Once you are being attacked all fine motor skills will almost certainly be lost and that presents a huge problem! Pepper spray will get the dogs off of you (and probably be much easier to use), stop the attack, and give you enough time to get out of that area. If there are a lot of dogs in your area carry the spray in your hand so that it will be ready if and when you need it.

I would also recommend consulting a local dog trainer and taking a course on dog bite defense. It might be a little tricky to find a trainer in your area that offers it, but it is well worth the course. I have done a bunch of classes for the local postal workers. If you need help finding someone PM me and I will be more than happy to help.

There is also a book that you can read called “Inside Of a Dog” that is a great read. It does not talk about dog attacks but it talks about the attention of animals, manipulating attention, and how to read a dogs body signals.

 

[603Country]

This is what happened to me. About 3 years ago I was deer hunting on our small ranch in central Texas. I was in an elevated box blind and could hear a pack of dogs to my north. They were hot after something, and the sound continued until I decided to give up the hunt and get down from the blind. When I did that, I found that the sound was actually to my west, and closer than I thought, and on my property. I had the 260 Ruger Compact, and the usual 3 rounds I put in hunting rifles, and I walked over to see what all the racket was about. The dogs were up in some heavy brush, so I quietly started working my way over to them. They were still making noise like they had bayed something up a tree. As I got very close to all the racket, I still couldn't see any of the dogs. Then...to my 2 o'clock, about 20 feet away, was a big dog who saw me just as I saw him. He didn't hesitate. He laid the ears back, showed me a serious set of canines and came at me low and slow with a deep growl. I didn't hesitate. I shot him dead on the spot. Here came another one with ears back and teeth showing and growling. I shot him, and then dogs were all hauling butt, but two came right at me. I shot the big one at maybe 4 feet, purely on instinct, and the little one apparently chose to fight another day. That was fine with me, because I was out of ammo (in the rifle). Then I got a real good case of the shakes. Then I put more bullets in the rifle. After that I examined the dogs. All were lean and tough looking, with shredded ears and scarred faces. One had a dog tag. To this day I don't know who's dogs they were, and I don't care. I think they would have killed me if they could have. That short quick little Ruger 260 will always be a favorite of mine. The reloaders among you will be pleased that before I took my shaky A__ back to the house, I found my brass.

 

[DRBoyle]

Sir that is surely one of the best true experiences ever related regarding firearms.

Busting a few myths, pouring a cold bucket on the hysteria from the antis and highlighting what man had in mind regarding this important tool. A great tale of real world personal survival especially with something not so tactical. Good to read you got out of it without a mark.

The previous posters comments about fine motor skills was an eye opener. Didn't think or even consider that aspect.

 

[troy_mclure]

i couldnt find the link, but several years ago a guy in Illinois(?) pepper sprayed a dog that was trying to attack him as he got out of his car in his driveway.

after he sprayed it he called animal control to report the incident knowing who the owners of the animal were.

he was later successfully sued in a civil suit for cleanup of the dog owners house from pepper spray contamination, and medical bills for the owners child who petted the dog.

iirc it was over $10k.

 

[JohnKSa]

Situation: dog is outside, I'm inside.

Block off the entryway with a piece of furniture, before opening exterior door. Zap dog around makeshift barricade with deterrent of choice.

In my case, an oak rocking chair would make a good barrier. Dog won't go over it or under it quickly; if it tries, that's when it gets shot.

Question: did you inform animal control that the neighbor's dog wouldn't let you leave the house? While it would be hard to believe they wouldn't respond quickly to that, I do know of a place or two where I could believe that might happen.

Question: did you have reason to believe the dog would come back and bother your father again, if you ran it off one time? (That would be another valid reason for escalating quickly, IMO.)

If a dog is out of its territory and on my property (synonomous, by the way), is big enough to pose a threat to me or any other member of my household and is exhibiting menacing behavior it had better back down convincingly and rapidly if a confrontation develops.

Frankly I'm just as concerned with assuring myself that there will be no recurrence as I am in resolving the current confrontation. I can't patrol the property all the time to keep it away and the consequences of a repeat performance when I'm not available to deal with the threat are unthinkable.

<<<I suppose it's worth noting that the goal of preventing a recurrence is not legal when dealing with human attackers. Deadly force can only legally used against humans to prevent the commission of certain serious crimes under certain circumstances WHEN the crime is imminent (just about to happen) or actually in progress. You can't legally use deadly force against a human with the goal of preventing a possible attack or recurrence of an attack that might happen next week, next month, or next year. It would certainly be the best strategic approach, but it's not legal.>>>

 

[fightingbard]

Dear MLeake,

There is one other thing that amazes me as much. And that is people making assumptions about people that they do not know..

For instance, I have raised two dogs, and a cat. At one point in my life (for about 10 years) my family owned a ranch in a godforsaken place near nowhere, where we had aprox. 300 sheep, two horses and everything else you can think of.

Nearest village was about 15 km away, and at most nights all we hear were the sound of coyotes , and sometimes wolves.

To get back to the point...

In this thread I understood that there are a lot of people that feel themselves threatened by packs of dogs.
I know the feeling of being threatened so I understand it. No argument there...
Myself on the other never felt this way, among dogs. Whether there is one dog, or a pack.
I am a citizen of a country, where dogs do not get caught even if they have no owner, so there are dogs everywhere (I am not arguing here, that this is right or wrong), but alas maybe by some very fortunate luck, I have never seen any dog, like many mentioned in this thread.

Also I will never frame a living soul as blood thirsty, just because they have instincts.
Thinking about it, planning, making preparations to kill...now that is blood thirsty. And only we humans do that.

Finally I simply say that, I never did feel threatened bu dogs (except just one time) and do not plan to be.
Unless it/they seem to be "rabid dogs"


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