Yeah the reason I hesitated on it is because it’s actually a double stack. It’s skinny for a double stack, but it’s outside of the actual recommendations so that’s why I held off on fully endorsing it.
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Best pistol for childrens church security
- Thread starter CAPMJUSTICE
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Yeah the reason I hesitated on it is because it’s actually a double stack. It’s skinny for a double stack, but it’s outside of the actual recommendations so that’s why I held off on fully endorsing it.
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I consider the right to self defense a fundamental right. At the same time, I also think people and organizations have rights to set limitations on what is private property. If I don’t agree with those limitations I generally don’t patronize the establishment. In this case it seems like the OP cares about the people in this church, wants to help protect them, and doesn’t want to disrespect the wishes of church leadership and one of those wishes that has been conveyed to him directly, if maybe not clearly, is size limitations.
I’m not going to suggest the OP just disregard what you’ve been told. I think that could have a negative impact in the end. I might suggest trying to convince the church to relax those restrictions over time as the program shows itself to be successful (hopefully).
I do agree that larger firearms can be concealed easier than many people realize, and it sounds like the OP knows that too, which was my point before. Best of luck to the OP.
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I’m not going to suggest the OP just disregard what you’ve been told. I think that could have a negative impact in the end. I might suggest trying to convince the church to relax those restrictions over time as the program shows itself to be successful (hopefully).
I do agree that larger firearms can be concealed easier than many people realize, and it sounds like the OP knows that too, which was my point before. Best of luck to the OP.
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Most "rules" are there to benefit those who make them, not those who have to follow them.
What I have a problem with and understanding is, how do their rules supercede my safety, especially if they arent willing to guarentee my safety, if I disarm, and I follow thier rules, and something goes wrong.
Been through this with a couple of companys and their HR/lawyers and the answer always was, thats the rules, and as you said, you can leave if you dont like them. Normal wordage in most company manuals prohibits ANY kind of weapons, and their answers were the normal response to the question too.
They also told me that they were not responsible if something were to go wrong, so, if I follow their rules Im screwed, if I dont, at least I have a chance, but Im still screwed, as far as the job goes anyway.
By the way, each time I was in the office with HR and the lawyers, I was wearing the same gun I was wearing in the CoP's office.
It looks like we have different priorities.
The goal wast the finger, it was/is my safety. If they arent willing to provide that, and in the next breath, deprive me of it, then yea, they get a wink and the finger.
Doom on me if I get caught.
On the other hand, its been about 45 some odd years now of daily carry, everywhere and anywhere, and so far, no "doom".
RAfiringline
New member
How sure are you, in case something happened and you had to use your weapon to wound or kill a threat, that you would receive support from the church leadership and members?
You used words to the effect that the rules are that no one can know that armed protection is present. In other words, people might object to the whole idea.
Self defense and defense of others uses of lethal force can be open to a great deal of contentious conflict, involving people who not only have no experience or knowledge of it, but are psychologically disposed to blaming any user of force for any and all results.
You don't want to find yourself in some kind of jackpot, with people you intended to protect, walking away from you.
You used words to the effect that the rules are that no one can know that armed protection is present. In other words, people might object to the whole idea.
Self defense and defense of others uses of lethal force can be open to a great deal of contentious conflict, involving people who not only have no experience or knowledge of it, but are psychologically disposed to blaming any user of force for any and all results.
You don't want to find yourself in some kind of jackpot, with people you intended to protect, walking away from you.
CAPMJUSTICE
New member
I appreciate that. And your point hasn’t been wasted even if I can’t implement it in this situation. Ive decided I’m going to put some of the things y’all have mentioned to use in edc, just as an experiment on how concealed I can get with my full sizes.
the duck of death
New member
Sig P 365--& be happy !!!
IT DOESN'T MATTER. If it's their game they get to make the rules. If you want to play their game you have to follow their rules or pay the consequences for violating them if you get caught. If you don't want to follow their rules, don't play their game--that's your choice.
If you decide you want to play their game then you agree to their rules. If he's going to be on the security team, he follows the rules. Simple as that. He can opt out of the rules by not being on the security team.
Right. That's how it works.
Not just that.
Clearly you had no respect for the wishes or rules of the people or organizations you were involved with. The OP's situation is different.
It's not always just about you. Sometimes people are willing to make sacrifices for things they feel are bigger/more important than themselves.
I really dont see it being any different. I dont have any respect for anyone that requires me to follow thier rules and wishes if they are contrary to what I consider my safety.
If they require me to sacrifice, then let me decide how I do it. Im very suspect of those who tell me they know better and I should do as Im told. They usually dont, and I usually dont.
Or, do I just do as Im told, and put that vest packed with semtex on and run into some other crowd.
At the OP.... do what you feel is best for you. Thats the best you can do.
Just dont short change yourself unnecessarily. And dont count on your back being covered either. RAfiringline has a very valid point.
If they require me to sacrifice, then let me decide how I do it. Im very suspect of those who tell me they know better and I should do as Im told. They usually dont, and I usually dont.
Or, do I just do as Im told, and put that vest packed with semtex on and run into some other crowd.
At the OP.... do what you feel is best for you. Thats the best you can do.
Just dont short change yourself unnecessarily. And dont count on your back being covered either. RAfiringline has a very valid point.
dogtown tom
New member
The more the OP posts, the more ???? it raises.
You are concerned about overpenetration, being unable to properly conceal your handgun and if printing the reaction of other members of your congregation. All valid concerns, but if you are as well trained as you believe, you would surely know that .380 is often faulted as an under penetrating round. And being well trained means you are aware of the limitations of small pocket pistols, blowback actions and greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to others.
Your choice of clothing impacts what method of carry, what type of holster and what type or size of handgun. Telling the forum what you wear to church would be helpful.
"Printing" is 99% YOUR fear, 1% "what's that bulge?". Unless you wear lycra shirts two sizes too small its unlikely that any other churchgoer will notice a handgun sized bulge. If they do observe the bulge, the majority will assume its a cellphone, a diabetics belt bag or Depends.
If your Sunday dress is a coat or jacket.....you could hide any handgun OWB.
If your Sunday dress is a polo or sport shirt, wear it untucked and IWB.
You could also go with a holster that doesn't look like a holster: https://sneakypeteholsters.com/
Spot on.
This is what strikes me as odd about this thread.....if you are "trained" it usually means you have significantly more experience with firearms than the average man on the street and selection of the handgun would be a no brainer. The way your question was phrased in the OP didn't lead me to believe you had any training or experience either.
You are concerned about overpenetration, being unable to properly conceal your handgun and if printing the reaction of other members of your congregation. All valid concerns, but if you are as well trained as you believe, you would surely know that .380 is often faulted as an under penetrating round. And being well trained means you are aware of the limitations of small pocket pistols, blowback actions and greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to others.
Your choice of clothing impacts what method of carry, what type of holster and what type or size of handgun. Telling the forum what you wear to church would be helpful.
"Printing" is 99% YOUR fear, 1% "what's that bulge?". Unless you wear lycra shirts two sizes too small its unlikely that any other churchgoer will notice a handgun sized bulge. If they do observe the bulge, the majority will assume its a cellphone, a diabetics belt bag or Depends.
If your Sunday dress is a coat or jacket.....you could hide any handgun OWB.
If your Sunday dress is a polo or sport shirt, wear it untucked and IWB.
You could also go with a holster that doesn't look like a holster: https://sneakypeteholsters.com/
Complied with what? Having a 9mm/.40/.45? or that when you are in the office they see your gun?
CAPMJUSTICE
New member
Our church is doing it the right way. Insurance and all that. I’m sure some of the people might be upset to find out, hence the focus on concealment, but the security team would be legally protected .... so long as the security team member involved was following the proper rules and procedures.
CAPMJUSTICE
New member
As I said before I’m trained full size combat arms, not pocket 380s. I don’t shoot them. These ???? You are so concerned about are irrelevant to just getting some product reviews. Do I have to submit a resume just to get a product review? Fine, my background is military, not civilian gun enthusiast. I know tactics, combat, and procedures. I’m lacking firearm knowledge that didn’t have to do with military service. I was trained on the beretta, have carried a 226 for several years. I have the army commendation medal with valor for combat operations in Iraq. I scored expert in pistol, machine gun, rifle, and grenade courses. I’m known for my awareness and by the book procedure following and that is why I was asked to serve on security.The more the OP posts, the more ???? it raises.
Spot on.
This is what strikes me as odd about this thread.....if you are "trained" it usually means you have significantly more experience with firearms than the average man on the street and selection of the handgun would be a no brainer. The way your question was phrased in the OP didn't lead me to believe you had any training or experience either.
You are concerned about overpenetration, being unable to properly conceal your handgun and if printing the reaction of other members of your congregation. All valid concerns, but if you are as well trained as you believe, you would surely know that .380 is often faulted as an under penetrating round. And being well trained means you are aware of the limitations of small pocket pistols, blowback actions and greatly reduced magazine capacity compared to others.
Your choice of clothing impacts what method of carry, what type of holster and what type or size of handgun. Telling the forum what you wear to church would be helpful.
"Printing" is 99% YOUR fear, 1% "what's that bulge?". Unless you wear lycra shirts two sizes too small its unlikely that any other churchgoer will notice a handgun sized bulge. If they do observe the bulge, the majority will assume its a cellphone, a diabetics belt bag or Depends.
If your Sunday dress is a coat or jacket.....you could hide any handgun OWB.
If your Sunday dress is a polo or sport shirt, wear it untucked and IWB.
You could also go with a holster that doesn't look like a holster: https://sneakypeteholsters.com/
Complied with what? Having a 9mm/.40/.45? or that when you are in the office they see your gun?
I own an XDe.
With the extended mag it provides a full grip even for a big hand and is still easy to conceal.
The extended mag also expands the capacity to 9+1. Good capacity for a 1" wide single stack.
Jim Watson
New member
Great. Sig made a whole lineup of guns with the same operating system.
You can work your way down the size scale until you find concealabilty.
I hope you can get there before you reach the Japanese contract .32.
Time to turn off the computer and shoot some guns.
RAfiringline
New member
Yeah.
Spend some time researching what happened to George Zimmerman in Florida. At the start, the police chief found it to be a valid self defense shooting. Then Sharpton and other leftist political activists showed up and the chief resigned, and Zimmerman (who may be a small part African American himself) became a victim of fear politics from politicos reacting to frightened voters.
The Zimmerman case was really not a close call, the police had it right at the beginning. You better know what you're doing and who you're depending on, because it has gotten a lot worse.
stephen426
New member
CAPMJUSTICE said:
The Sig P239 doesn’t have a safety which I thought that was the first thing listed on your criteria? If a safety is not required, does that open up the options to other guns? The Sig 365XL could fit the bill nicely. The Glock 43X has the Glock 19 sized frame with the slim and short Glock43 slide. It holds 10+1 rounds. If safeties are not required, I would also suggest you look at the Springfield Armory Hellcat. It is almost the same size as the Glock 43, but holds 11+1 with the flush fitting mag, amid 13+1 with the extended mag (included). I carry with the 11 round mag in the gun, plus 2 of the 13 round mags.
You mentioned Kahr, but I am not a fan due to the long trigger. The insides are also not as corrosion resistant as other guns, and mine rusted almost to the point it would not fire after sweating all over it (post Hurricane Irma). The longer pull and long reset makes longer distance shots harder and follow up shots slower. I also see no point in going down to .380 acp when there are so many great 9mm pistols that are almost the same size. You also mentioned the Walther PPKS. The German ones are decent, but the American made ones have a bad rep. It is still too heavy for a .380 6 shot. There are so many better choices with polymer guns that are lighter.
I understand that your church may have people who are uncomfortable with guns, but not announcing armed security could lead to “friendly fire” situations. Other parishioners may be armed and think that a designated armed security team member may be a threat. You and the security lead may be much better trained than other parishioners.
Good luck and take the advice and comments with a grain of salt. It is a public forum with varying degrees of knowledge and backgrounds. My pastor asked if I cared and I told him I did. He said “good”. I’m not sure if we are ready for an armed security team, but I don’t believe there are too many others that carry.
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CAPMJUSTICE
New member
Sorry I meant “safety” as an issue not the mechanical “manual safety”, though as I said I do prefer Da/sa or at least da. I know shorter triggers offer a potential accuracy benefit but I’m familiar and trained with the DA trigger so I’m not afraid of it and appreciate the extra layer of “safety” they offer. I certainly hear you on the “friendly fire” thing. Something I think about a lot while I’m serving. Though I might would face the same problem whether I’m on security or not. If something happens I’ll just have to do my best.
stephen426
New member
I had a crazy idea when they were talking about arming teachers after the Marjorie Stoneman Douglass school shooting. If there are. Bunch of armed teachers, how do responding officers know who the threat is. There is no way for them to know all the teachers in all the schools.
That gave me the idea of a color coded sash with the church name and security team on it. While a vest would be ideal, you can’t pull one on that quickly, especially when responding to a threat. I’m thinking maybe some kind of rolled up ribbon that has church security might reduce the chance of being mistake as a threat. This would have to be quick to deploy and discreet to carry.
Thanks for clarifying about the “safety” requirement. Please let us know what you decide to go with. Try and rent whatever you are interested in. Gun availability has been very scarce in many places. Getting to handle a bunch of different guns in a gun store is not so easy anymore.
That gave me the idea of a color coded sash with the church name and security team on it. While a vest would be ideal, you can’t pull one on that quickly, especially when responding to a threat. I’m thinking maybe some kind of rolled up ribbon that has church security might reduce the chance of being mistake as a threat. This would have to be quick to deploy and discreet to carry.
Thanks for clarifying about the “safety” requirement. Please let us know what you decide to go with. Try and rent whatever you are interested in. Gun availability has been very scarce in many places. Getting to handle a bunch of different guns in a gun store is not so easy anymore.
the duck of death
New member
....
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Cosmodragoon
New member
I agree with the caliber recommendation, the list of guns here, and the fact that a suit jacket or blazer is very forgiving for concealed carry. Any combination there can work beautifully with a nice leather IWB holster.
I don't agree with the light and laser recommendation. I understand the arguments in favor of these things but for real-life civilian defensive encounters both seem a little iffy. It's extra stuff and extra complication. In my experience, lasers do have value as a training tool. As far as lights, I believe in carrying an EDC flashlight. It's very useful for a very wide variety of things. Having a light married to your gun means carrying a second light and pointing your gun wherever you shine it.
As far as the Urban Carry goes, don't bother. I looked into one of these and it was a hard pass. Coincidentally, this guy came to the same conclusions I did. If you aren't familiar, Active Self Protection is an excellent YouTube channel that looks at real-life defensive encounters caught on video. It's a valuable resource for anyone interested in these sorts of topics. This is the secondary discussion channel for the trainer and commentator on Active Self Protection.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUvpH1u3c-0
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