Best pistol for childrens church security

[rodfac]

Simple and easy, don't go for a "mini pistol" with all its drawbacks, just change the way you dress so a decent size gun doesn't show. Maybe not convenient or stylish, but what matters more, the way you look or having the better tool for the job IF it ever is needed?

Very good advice and I'll add, pick a model that's accurate for the distances involved. Our church is nearly 100 ft square...30+ yards...a pocket pistol in a marginal caliber will not fill the bill.

Dress around the gun and use a holster that'll let you get to it while sitting in a pew. Concealment, given dress up church suitable attire, should not be a problem.

Lastly, pick a gun & caliber that'll do the job and has enough bullet options to satisfy your tactical needs. .357s, 9's, 40's, & 45's will all offer what you'll need. Pin point precision is your goal without excessive penetration. Your job is identical to that of the Secret Service protection detail....

HTH's Rod
__________________
All else being equal

 

[zxcvbob]

I don't disagree with the last comments, but when did this morph from protecting the children's ministry area (which in my church is a small classroom, but that's probably unusually small) to protecting the entire building? It would be /nice/ to pack a large enough gun to be effective from across the sanctuary should the need arise, but I don't think that was one of the requirements. And it would be better to have multiple people armed, so the chances increase that *somebody* has a close (and clear) shot.

 

[Jim Watson]

You don't prepare for the average condition, you prepare for the worst.
If I were guarding children, I would want a powerful weapon that would hammer any attacker.
The OP is just going to have to balance protecting the kids and hiding his gun.
This might require field testing several pistols.

 

[tipoc]

Best pistol for childrens church security

Is it a good idea to arm children? Is there gonna be a cut off age for these gun toters? Like toddlers and below, no guns. Or maybe they got to be strong enough to pick it up and point it before we give you a gun? Also who are they supposed to be defending themselves against? Overly stern parents?

If you give all the kids guns won't you have to have an armed adult hanging around to look after them?

Seems a sketchy idea.

Now if your thinking of what gun a person should carry who is responsible for taking care of the kids while in church, well that's another thing.

First off I notice that one criteria the op has is that the gun be not so large that it might print and some parents be made afraid or nervous when they see a gun. Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?

It's clear that the "guardian" of the children in this case is untrained because they come to a gun forum to ask this question.

Before asking about "what gun" the politics and policy of the church need to be worked out regarding armed self defense. Discussed by parishioners clearly and honestly. That's the bedrock of self defense. The particular gun is down at the bottom of the list.

tipoc

 

[RAfiringline]

Full or medium size 9mm loaded w/ good hollow points (or possibly frangibles?). Small handguns are harder to shoot accurately and have more stoppages rising from design factors and difficulty in getting/maintaining a good grip.

Concealment- go to Goodwill and get a slightly oversize mundane sports jacket. You want to blend in as an ineffectual schlunky, not Captain America. Your schlunky jacket will allow you to have and hide a good weapon, a good holster, an extra mag, and rapid access.

 

[CAPMJUSTICE]

Is it a good idea to arm children? Is there gonna be a cut off age for these gun toters? Like toddlers and below, no guns. Or maybe they got to be strong enough to pick it up and point it before we give you a gun? Also who are they supposed to be defending themselves against? Overly stern parents?

If you give all the kids guns won't you have to have an armed adult hanging around to look after them?

Seems a sketchy idea.

Now if your thinking of what gun a person should carry who is responsible for taking care of the kids while in church, well that's another thing.

First off I notice that one criteria the op has is that the gun be not so large that it might print and some parents be made afraid or nervous when they see a gun. Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?

It's clear that the "guardian" of the children in this case is untrained because they come to a gun forum to ask this question.

Before asking about "what gun" the politics and policy of the church need to be worked out regarding armed self defense. Discussed by parishioners clearly and honestly. That's the bedrock of self defense. The particular gun is down at the bottom of the list.

tipoc

Well, given your eagerness to make uniformed declarations about my training level, yours is evidenced to be the least valuable opinion here. So I think I'll just leave the policy process to the church, do what I was asked to do, and try to protect children. And for the record, I came here for what amounts to a "product review". If you think me asking this question here amounts to asking for marching orders, then you clearing overestimate your value, and it clearly explains why you're seeking validation by posting the way you are.

 

[JohnKSa]

First off I notice that one criteria the op has is that the gun be not so large that it might print and some parents be made afraid or nervous when they see a gun. Seems to me that if you have armed defense in the church all of the parishioners should know it, be aware of it and agree with it. Armed individuals protecting the Sunday School while it's in session is something the parents must be aware of and agree with. Without that chaos and confusion can easily follow. Do the parents and pastors agree that an untrained armed person watch over their children? What is the plan?

...

Before asking about "what gun" the politics and policy of the church need to be worked out regarding armed self defense. Discussed by parishioners clearly and honestly. That's the bedrock of self defense. The particular gun is down at the bottom of the list.

The OP is not a policy maker and is complying with the policy that was provided to him.

While your points are good, it appears that the OP doesn't have the ability to start from the ground and build a security policy from scratch. The OP's choices appear to be either to comply with the policies provided or decline to participate and it appears that he has chosen to participate/comply.

 

[Jim Watson]

No, but the OP does have the option of selecting gun, holster, and coat to fit the mold.
He has a number of recommendations, some even fitting his DA/SA spec.

Here is a helpful tool I found today. Pick two pistols off a long list and it will illustrate them side by side and with a table of comparative dimensions.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/sig-sauer-p365-xl-vs-glock-g48

 

[CAPMJUSTICE]

The OP is not a policy maker and is complying with the policy that was provided to him.

While your points are good, it appears that the OP doesn't have the ability to start from the ground and build a security policy from scratch. The OP's choices appear to be either to comply with the policies provided or decline to participate and it appears that he has chosen to participate/comply.

Spot on, I am neither official clergy nor the head of security. Our church is ideologically mixed, and our head of security is a retired federal agent who personally asked me to participate and lead specifically the childrens church section of security, because he knows I AM trained in regards to threat assessment/awareness, even if not in this particular setting with these particular limitations. I came here to get reviews on firearms that fit my limitations and current training (DA/SA). If you find my limitations stupid, I empathize and even agree ... but it still doeasn't change them. If asking for suggestions and reviews counts in anyone's book as "evidence" that I am "personally" untrained, unrealistic, not taking the situation seriously, or as good as unarmed unless I'm carrying a full size double stack, then I'll file your opinion in the appropriate place along with all other worthless and waste of space typing that happens online. Tipoc did have one thing right. Firearm choice is bottom of the list of things to decide. And thats exactly where I am. Everything else is already set. My training in threat awareness, pain compliance, and dedication to following proper procedure are why I was asked to participate and will probably come into use far more than any firearm I pick.

 

[RAfiringline]

https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/...l-vs-glock-g48

Great. Not only cool, but actually useful.

 

[JohnKSa]

No, but the OP does have the option of selecting gun, holster, and coat to fit the mold.

Sure. To understand my remarks, it's important to look at what I was responding to--comments basically telling the OP that the entire premise of the security team was screwed up and that it needed to be reworked from scratch with an entirely different philosophy.

 

[CAPMJUSTICE]

No, but the OP does have the option of selecting gun, holster, and coat to fit the mold.
He has a number of recommendations, some even fitting his DA/SA spec.

Here is a helpful tool I found today. Pick two pistols off a long list and it will illustrate them side by side and with a table of comparative dimensions.
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/sig-sauer-p365-xl-vs-glock-g48

Let me address the "dress around it" suggestion. It's not a bad suggestion, and its something I thought about when the limitations were first presented to me. I carry a full size as my edc after all. But let me run a situation by you. I "dress around" a bigger pistol, during a day on security duty, and the standard church goers are none the wiser, but then when I'm putting on or taking off my com's and ear piece after church in the security office and while adjusting my wardrobe to do so a fellow security member, the head of security, or the pastor see's that I have not complied and kicks me off the security team and finds someone who will comply, or worse, it gets back to the board and gives them more reservations about having armed security at all right after they were just dipping their toe into starting one. I hope that one day the ignorance will be overcome but right now the best protection these children can get is from a security team with the limitations I've presented and I'm not going to jeopardize that. I will continue to advocate for more, but I will comply with the current policies.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I will continue to advocate for more, but I will comply with the current policies.

What a novel idea -- "Just fly the mission."

[/sarcasm mode]

Some folks can't do that. I've never been able to understand it, but they just can't.

 

[TunnelRat]

Let me address the "dress around it" suggestion. It's not a bad suggestion, and its something I thought about when the limitations were first presented to me. I carry a full size as my edc after all. But let me run a situation by you. I "dress around" a bigger pistol, during a day on security duty, and the standard church goers are none the wiser, but then when I'm putting on or taking off my com's and ear piece after church in the security office and while adjusting my wardrobe to do so a fellow security member, the head of security, or the pastor see's that I have not complied and kicks me off the security team and finds someone who will comply, or worse, it gets back to the board and gives them more reservations about having armed security at all right after they were just dipping their toe into starting one. I hope that one day the ignorance will be overcome but right now the best protection these children can get is from a security team with the limitations I've presented and I'm not going to jeopardize that. I will continue to advocate for more, but I will comply with the current policies.

So I’m confused a bit. From what you said previously I gathered the policy is that the firearm must remain concealed and the fellow parishioners can’t know. You’re saying that even if that was true and another security member judged your pistol too large you’d still be in trouble? In that case there should be exact size specifications in terms of what you can carry (or at least a lot more than what has been suggested thus far), otherwise it seems extremely arbitrary and how are you ever supposed to know if you “comply”? If we had those specifications recommendations would be a lot easier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CAPMJUSTICE]

So I’m confused a bit. From what you said previously I gathered the policy is that the firearm must remain concealed and the fellow parishioners can’t know. You’re saying that even if that was true and another security member judged your pistol too large you’d still be in trouble? In that case there should be exact size specifications in terms of what you can carry (or at least a lot more than what has been suggested thus far), otherwise it seems extremely arbitrary and how are you ever supposed to know if you “comply”? If we had those specifications recommendations would be a lot easier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not "knowing" level of concealment is the goal. The policy adopted to achieve that goal went overboard to the level of "maximum concealment" in a pistol format. The policy was going to be basically pocket pistols, but our head of security had to fight for raising the bar to the level of still having a full grip, on the argument that more accuracy was needed than what could be offered by a "pocket pistol". Again, this is all second hand. I wasn't in the meeting and have no power over policies. This stuff in on the advice of my pastor and head of security. We met and they told me, as second in charge and head of the childrens church area, I could adjust some of the procedures as needed for children's church, but that I needed to go as small as I could on my side arm while still having a full grip. It is VERY arbitrary, but I think I'm fine as long as it seems an effort was made. My head of security suggested that any single stack subcompact is probably going to be fine. I didn't get this specific with the story because I didn't think I needed to just to get some product reviews.

 

[AK103K]

So I’m confused a bit. From what you said previously I gathered the policy is that the firearm must remain concealed and the fellow parishioners can’t know. You’re saying that even if that was true and another security member judged your pistol too large you’d still be in trouble? In that case there should be exact size specifications in terms of what you can carry (or at least a lot more than what has been suggested thus far), otherwise it seems extremely arbitrary and how are you ever supposed to know if you “comply”? If we had those specifications recommendations would be a lot easier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Im confused too. If youre doing your part, no one will know you have the gun on, and no matter what it is.

And who gets the right to tell you what to carry?

Ive carried in NPE's for most of my life, and stood in a couple of different police chiefs offices, in a pair of jeans and my comapany uniform shirt, wearing a full sized hand gun (1911, SIG P226, etc) I wasnt supposed to have on, and he never had a clue, nor did any of the other cops I interacted with headed to his office.

Ive also had quite a few conversations with people, inlaws, people in gun shops, work, etc, face to face, a couple of feet apart, and was told I couldnt possibly carry a full sized gun wearing what I was wearing, while I was doing exactly that, and right in front of them.

This isnt rocket science, nor is it hard to do. You just have to "want" to do it, and youll figure out a way. Dont listen to the nay sayers, or let those who think they are, and/or want to be in charge of you, tell you what to do. You do what you think is best for you, and let them find their own way.

As I said earlier, personally, Ive always tried to carry the gun I shoot best with in regular practice, and allows me the best chance to deal with as many possible things that may come up. Why in the world would you limit yourself, needlessly, if you dont have to?

Id be willing to bet, with a little work on your part, you can easily figure out how to hide and carry the gun you were told you couldnt possibly carry, and do so right in front of the person who told you that.

And theres a LOT of satisfaction in doing just that too.

 

[TunnelRat]

Not "knowing" level of concealment is the goal. The policy adopted to achieve that goal went overboard to the level of "maximum concealment" in a pistol format. The policy was going to be basically pocket pistols, but our head of security had to fight for raising the bar to the level of still having a full grip, on the argument that more accuracy was needed than what could be offered by a "pocket pistol". Again, this is all second hand. I wasn't in the meeting and have no power over policies. This stuff in on the advice of my pastor and head of security. We met and they told me, as second in charge and head of the childrens church area, I could adjust some of the procedures as needed for children's church, but that I needed to go as small as I could on my side arm while still having a full grip. It is VERY arbitrary, but I think I'm fine as long as it seems an effort was made. My head of security suggested that any single stack subcompact is probably going to be fine. I didn't get this specific with the story because I didn't think I needed to just to get some product reviews.

I totally get a lot of this is beyond your control. I’m just trying to figure out what parameters might be known so I can actually make a meaningful suggestion.

Full grip is still pretty vague. Like, I can get a full grip on something like a Glock 19, but others have bigger hands that make that hard and for them they need a Glock 17 for a full grip. Full grips in single stacks aren’t particularly common unless we’re talking about Commander sized 1911s.

That being said if it has to be a single stack and you want DA/SA I think the XDe, P239 (might not give you a full grip depending on your hand size), or some of the older S&W semiautomatics might work. It’s hard because DA/SA or true DAO aren’t as popular these days so there aren’t as many options with that manual of arms, but that’s what comes to mind. I would say, and this is me being biased, the HK P2000 or P2000sk are surprisingly svelte if you get a chance to look at one. I don’t have anything against the PX4 line, but it’s rather thick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jim Watson]

That is getting you into deep concealment from your alleged allies.
Not knowing how you are wired, but I'd consider a shoulder holster under the shirt or one of those holster undershirts for a medium pistol. Ken Null will even make a white shoulder rig to reduce printing.
Would a "tuckable" IWB do? Thunderware?
If even deeper hiding is necessary, you are down to a pocket pistol in a pocket or ankle rig.

 

[CAPMJUSTICE]

I totally get a lot of this is beyond your control. I’m just trying to figure out what parameters might be known so I can actually make a meaningful suggestion.

Full grip is still pretty vague. Like, I can get a full grip on something like a Glock 19, but others have bigger hands that make that hard and for them they need a Glock 17 for a full grip. Full grips in single stacks aren’t particularly common unless we’re talking about Commander sized 1911s.

That being said if it has to be a single stack and you want DA/SA I think the XDe, P239 (might not give you a full grip depending on your hand size), or some of the older S&W semiautomatics might work. It’s hard because DA/SA or true DAO aren’t as popular these days so there aren’t as many options with that manual of arms, but that’s what comes to mind. I would say, and this is me being biased, the HK P2000 or P2000sk are surprisingly svelte if you get a chance to look at one. I don’t have anything against the PX4 line, but it’s rather thick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you, the xde and p239 have been recommended by several people here so I'm going to look into them. The p2000sk I've heard of, but also heard its big for a single stack. I'll look into it.

 

[JohnKSa]

And who gets the right to tell you what to carry?

The person who has responsibility for the property and the team? How is that hard to understand?

Just because it's unpaid doesn't mean that he doesn't have a boss and doesn't have to follow rules. The boss has told him how to operate and given him boundaries within which he must operate. As with any job, he could choose not to "work there" and then he wouldn't have to follow that boss' rules.

And theres a LOT of satisfaction in doing just that too.

That makes sense. However, if the goal of basically giving people in authority the finger isn't paramount, you can see how following the rules provided might rise a little higher on the list of priorities.

By the way, I usually try to avoid the "I can carry a bigger gun than you can because _______" arguments (fill in the blank with whatever--I'm smarter, I care less about printing, I'm more security conscious. ) For one thing, it would take getting everyone in the argument together in a room to really verify what different people mean by concealment, what different people mean by a normal range of activities, for people to see that not everyone is built the same way they are, for people to understand that not everyone is free to choose their mode of dress with the same leeway they are, that not everyone can manage the same level of discomfort that they feel is reasonable, etc., etc.

That all said, it is worth noting that simply carrying is not really what this is about. It's about carrying in a specific environment and maintaining perfect concealment throughout the entire process.

If you've ever had a kid run up to you to hug you and smack their head on your carry gun, you will know why the kind of people you are carrying around can make a difference. If you've ever had someone put an arm around you and feel your carry gun, you'll understand.

If you've ever tried to figure out what to do with a gun while using the restroom because it's too heavy/large to leave on your belt during the process, you'll understand why someone who can go lock themselves into a room by themselves every time they need to go to the bathroom has more concealment leeway than someone who has to use a public restroom sometimes.

If you've ever had a gun unconceal when reaching up for something or bending over and sitting and you can't wear a cover garment long enough to qualify as a short dress, then it might make sense why someone who can't just stand still or walk around without bending/reaching/sitting is more restricted in terms of what they can conceal and/or how hard they must work to conceal.

If you can't wear loose/baggy/casual clothing, you will probably understand why those who have a lot of leeway in that area can conceal more easily and can conceal larger firearms.

Finally, I think by now we all know that some people are just plain superheroes when it comes to concealing. They can always conceal a full-sized, full-weight pistol and several magazines for it regardless of what manner of dress they are restricted to, no matter who they are around, no matter what kind of activity they have to do, etc.

I think we also know that in practice, most non-superhero concealers find that they are sometimes forced to tailor their carry gun to the situation.