Best pistol for childrens church security

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Onward Allusion said:
Concealment would be a secondary objective, IMO. If I am reading correctly, your role is that of security for a place of worship. The choice is not for CCW but to protect others. So, carry what you were trained with... Full size duty weapon... G17, G19, Sig 320, Sig 226...etc...
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You haven't had much dealings with church internal politics, have you? The pastor may have to deal with a board of deacons or elders. Keeping a firearm concealed may be the trade-off to get any armed security. We don't know, and it's not our place to ask. The criterion presented was that concealment is a requirement. IMHO, responses that start off with "Don't worry about concealment ..." aren't answering the question, and are worthless in the context of this discussion.

A good friend of mine is the de facto head of the security team at his church. The pastor has given him an impossible assignment: make the church safe, but we don't want armed security.

Yeah, they really do think that way.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
You haven't had much dealings with church internal politics, have you? The pastor may have to deal with a board of deacons or elders. Keeping a firearm concealed may be the trade-off to get any armed security. We don't know, and it's not our place to ask. The criterion presented was that concealment is a requirement. IMHO, responses that start off with "Don't worry about concealment ..." aren't answering the question, and are worthless in the context of this discussion.

A good friend of mine is the de facto head of the security team at his church. The pastor has given him an impossible assignment: make the church safe, but we don't want armed security.

Yeah, they really do think that way.
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I’m not official clergy or anything but this is kinda the impression I’m getting. Concealment seems to be the compromise. My pastors literal words were “ look I support this but we need to make sure someone could go to church here for 20 years and never know there were guns in the building “
 
I can't recommend a PP, terrible DA and not as reliable as others.
A Sig P230, P232, or CZ 82 if you just must .380.
Better a 9mm with light fast JHP. My P225 is pretty flat and a P239 is somewhat modernized. Compact CZs shoot well if you will dress to cover the thicker butt.
 
dogtown tom said:
.380 out of a pocket pistol will often have more perceived recoil than 9x19 out of a larger framed pistol. If that .380 is blowback design then even more so.





Don't wear clothing that prints. It's not difficult to dress for concealment. And fear of scaring people by printing? Not likely they would know what it is that is printing anyways.




The first bolded part describes the second bolded part to a T.






I've owned both and both would be the last I would choose.
The first would be a Glock 19 or other medium sized 9x19 pistol.
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I can get my pinky on both the ct380 and the ppks, maybe you’re confusing the ct380 with the cw380 and the ppks with the ppk standard? My hands aren’t small but they aren’t so big that I cant fit my pinky on anything that isn’t full size. I’m sure the Glock 19 is accurate but it doesn’t satisfy my safety or size requirements. But if you have bad accuracy experience with the walther or kahr that you’d like to share I’ll certainly take that into consideration.
 
As a parishioner I would hope the security team was well trained and able to hit a moving threat (and not non-combatants) at the longest possible diagonal distance in the church.

I don't believe a pocket gun is the right weapon for that in any room that has more than 100 square feet in it.
 
Jim Watson said:
I can't recommend a PP, terrible DA and not as reliable as others.
A Sig P230, P232, or CZ 82 if you just must .380.
Better a 9mm with light fast JHP. My P225 is pretty flat and a P239 is somewhat modernized. Compact CZs shoot well if you will dress to cover the thicker butt.
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I do really love CZ’s, but I just don’t know about them and my concealment requirement. I really wish they made a single stack subcompact. It would be my automatic choice.
 
bjw741 said:
Springfield XDe 3.3 9mm DA/SA with thumb safety decocker 8+1
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Just looked this one up, And it seems great. Maybe exactly what I’m looking for! My only concern is how new it is. Do you know if there are any issues? Most new designs have them till they get them worked out. Springfield isn’t a typical da/sa manufacturer to my limited knowledge
 
I was under the impression that Kahr’s were around 7lbs and had more creep than other strikers that have typically 5lbs or even less with the new sigs and the like.
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Kahr triggers tend to feel long but are light, smooth and consistent.

The two Kahr triggers I've measured (CW9 & P9) were between 5.5lbs and 6.0lbs in pull weight. By the way, the P9/CW9 size is very shootable--most folks will be able to get all three fingers on the grip.

"Creep", IMO, is a term that does not apply to DA/DAO type triggers. They have takeup and long travel intentionally and unavoidably. "Creep" is a term that has to do with trigger travel prior to the trigger break. In the ideal single-action type trigger, there is no trigger travel at all before the break. Any trigger travel before the break is termed "creep".

Anyway, some people dislike Kahr triggers because they feel long and they are hard to "stage". The trigger pull weight is pretty constant all the way through the pull. A lot of people want to feel a takeup, some easily discernible increase in trigger pull weight right before the break and then a clean break. Kahr triggers tend to pull all the way through smoothly without a lot of buildup to the break.

Also, people who want to shoot from the reset will probably find Kahr triggers irritating. The reset isn't super-distinct, and anyway, you have to pretty much release the trigger completely before it resets.

I highly recommend that you try to handle one if they interest you. It is certainly true that the triggers are sort of unusual, but that doesn't mean they're bad triggers or difficult to shoot well. You might really like how they work. Or you might hate them. Either way, actually getting your hands on one is about the only way to be sure.
 
JohnKSa said:
Kahr triggers tend to feel long but are light, smooth and consistent.

The two Kahr triggers I've measured (CW9 & P9) were between 5.5lbs and 6.0lbs in pull weight. By the way, the P9/CW9 size is very shootable--most folks will be able to get all three fingers on the grip.

"Creep", IMO, is a term that does not apply to DA/DAO type triggers. They have takeup and long travel intentionally and unavoidably. "Creep" is a term that has to do with trigger travel prior to the trigger break. In the ideal single-action type trigger, there is no trigger travel at all before the break. Any trigger travel before the break is termed "creep".

Anyway, some people dislike Kahr triggers because they feel long and they are hard to "stage". The trigger pull weight is pretty constant all the way through the pull. A lot of people want to feel a takeup, some easily discernible increase in trigger pull weight right before the break and then a clean break. Kahr triggers tend to pull all the way through smoothly without a lot of buildup to the break.

Also, people who want to shoot from the reset will probably find Kahr triggers irritating. The reset isn't super-distinct, and anyway, you have to pretty much release the trigger completely before it resets.

I highly recommend that you try to handle one if they interest you. It is certainly true that the triggers are sort of unusual, but that doesn't mean they're bad triggers or difficult to shoot well. You might really like how they work. Or you might hate them. Either way, actually getting your hands on one is about the only way to be sure.
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Thank you, I think that rules out the kahr for me. I just don’t want to go that low on trigger weight.
 
HK P2000 and P2000sk come to mind.

Some of the options mentioned seem to me more what I would expect for a personal ccw. If you’re envisioning needing to use this to stop a mass shooter at a church setting, I personally would want more than a PPK.


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Good Lord. (Literally). This is a dog chasing it’s tail debate.

A small gun will be harder to shoot with accuracy.

Some rounds will over penetrate. Some won’t have enough energy to shut off a bad guy.

I would go with a compact 1911. It has a real trigger that you can hit with. And an off switch to make it safe. Either in .45 ACP with a good hollow point.

Or, a Springfield EMP 4 in 9mm. With an off switch. Again, with a fast expanding hollow point.

But. That’s me.

A 4” S&W Combat Masterpiece would work well.

It really comes down to what you shoot well.

I’m not a big fan of the current crop of cocked and unlocked striker fired guns without an off switch. But, they generally have good triggers.
 
I like the inherent safety of DA/SA for carry. As more guys have discovered AIWB, there seems to be renewed interest in hammer feedback. Jokes aside, I do feel better holstering with my thumb on the hammer.

Unfortunately, the revolution in polymer subcompacts hasn't given us much in the way of DA/SA. As much as I like the Sig P239 or some of the classic metal-framed choices in .380; they still feel heavy versus modern carry guns like the Shield, PPS, or P365. If I had to pick from that category, I'd skip the .380 guns and go with the P239. It's a much nicer gun with respect to some of your requirements. It sounds like anything larger might be off the table here.

In the new class of polymer subcompacts, the Springfield XDE might be the only option. I've avoided it because I have strong feelings about manual safety switches on carry guns. In your case though, that could be a benefit. It's at least worth trying to handle one and see how it feels.

As far as penetration, even lighter calibers like .380 can punch right through walls, doors, pews, couches, etc. They can go through bad guys too. The degree to which you can minimize that by going down in power feels marginal. In fact, you can get the opposite effect as hollow-point expansion becomes less reliable at lower velocities.
 
Ruger Lc9s with the safety and a Galco King Tuck holster. Use the optional pinky extension on the mag and carry an extra mag as well. 9mm, ultra reliable, accurate, very concealable, and with a rubber grip sleeve recoil is not bad. While the trigger is a tad light it’s a long enough pull that coupled with the manual safety it’s not an issue and in fact helps a lot with accuracy. The most important thing with all these smaller handguns is regular practice since they are a little harder to maintain accuracy with than a full size gun. Minimum to me would be a box of ammo twice a month, so 100 rounds per month.
 
CAPMJUSTICE said:
Just looked this one up, And it seems great. Maybe exactly what I’m looking for! My only concern is how new it is. Do you know if there are any issues? Most new designs have them till they get them worked out. Springfield isn’t a typical da/sa manufacturer to my limited knowledge
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No issues that I'm aware of. I've had mine for 3 years and have never had a failure of any kind. Have read similar reports on the Springfield XD Forum.
 
I have and carry an LC9s, thumb safety version. It is compact and reliable, accurate by pocket pistol standards, but at the bottom edge of what the OP needs.

I had not thought of the XDe but it may be the most applicable of the current crop. There is the dinky 3.3" gun and the 4.5" model which is about the size of my elderly Commander but with "modern" DA/SA and plastic construction.
 
The Federal Air Marshals work in the exact environment you describe.

They carried Sigs in 357 SIG for a very long time.

I usually carry appendix. And, I carry a P239 DAK in 357. As others have alluded to, that longer trigger stroke and exposed hammer gives a margin of safety.

Just a thought.
 
You haven't had much dealings with church internal politics, have you?
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Yeah, thank gawd I have never had to deal with that. HOA & management politics is more than enough. The thing is, I wonder how the elders would feel about security trying to shoot a bad guy with a small concealable pistol and nailed someone else? If one is gonna do security work, use the right tools. Otherwise, don't volunteer for a no winner.
 
If you're taking a survey as to which gun you should use to prevent a mass murder in a church you've already got a huge problem.
 
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