BATFE goes postal in Richmond VA

Rich,

Sorry about the repost.

And I agree, it would be nice to see a major news outlet covering this, but I dont think it will happen. Its not like the ATF will issue a statement, they want to distance themselves, and fast.

I do find it upsetting that Van Cleave and his group are just going to sit back and see if it happens again. That bothers me. Kind of like, you know the fox ate the hens, but you are going to wait and see if he does it again before you do something.
 
Wildcard, I am a member of vcdl. I joined because it is an appropriately aggresive organization, and smart. I don't speak for anybody but myself.But I am not waiting for them to do something else. The first step is to get the facts that we can and that is what I am doing now.Just the first step. And we have about 4000 members.
 
You know, amid all the calls for more news sources (which I'd like to see as well), how about some calls for an official explanation from the involved agencies? Why won't they tell us their version of what went on? It seems there was some sort of operation, and it was not normal. What was it? Have any of you asked them for an explanation? I haven't, but maybe we all should...
 
publius42 said:
how about some calls for an official explanation from the involved agencies
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One of the more reasonable (and disturbing) statements I've seen. BATFE works for US; not the other way around. They should have every bit as much responsibility to respond as those they have been known to take action against.

What BATFE seems to misunderstand is that silence in this issue is near tantamount to admission of guilt. If they had not engaged in these actions, they owe it to the taxpayers to vociferously deny any involvement.

Rich
 
BATFE works for US; not the other way around. They should have every bit as much responsibility to respond as those they have been known to take action against.

What BATFE seems to misunderstand is that silence in this issue is near tantamount to admission of guilt. If they had not engaged in these actions, they owe it to the taxpayers to vociferously deny any involvement.
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Damn straight, +1
 
BATFE works for US; not the other way around. They should have every bit as much responsibility to respond as those they have been known to take action against.

What BATFE seems to misunderstand is that silence in this issue is near tantamount to admission of guilt. If they had not engaged in these actions, they owe it to the taxpayers to vociferously deny any involvement.
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What, they aren't innocent until proven guilty? You mean they can't plead the 5th? :)
 
One of the more reasonable (and disturbing) statements I've seen. BATFE works for US; not the other way around. They should have every bit as much responsibility to respond as those they have been known to take action against.
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I kind of get the idea they see themselves more as our keepers, and as such owe us only enough explanation to keep us from whining to their bosses. Of course, I probably have it all wrong.
 
I kind of get the idea they see themselves more as our keepers, and as such owe us only enough explanation to keep us from whining to their bosses. Of course, I probably have it all wrong.
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Actually, they don't see themselves as our keepers; they see themselves as being in opposition to us. That's the problem. If they were our keepers, they would try to act in "our best interest." As it is, they see us as at best potential criminals and at worst as criminals they just haven't caught yet.
 
buzz, "they" don't see us any particular way at all. ATF is composed of individuals. SOME certainly seem to see us that way, but they also seem to be in hiding at the moment. I think that if we ALL ask them to explain themselves, and ask our Congresscritters just what the heck our employees think they are doing, going around bugging our neighbors if we buy a gun, we can put an end to this kind of harassment at gun shows.

And yes, I'm going to assume that is what was going on until I hear some kind of official word. A one source story? Yes, unfortunately, the ONLY source on this story.
 
buzz, "they" don't see us any particular way at all. ATF is composed of individuals
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I am having trouble reconciling that with the assault on the citizens that lived near Waco. ATF seems to be an organization that hates American citizens who own guns. If that is true, then the inidviduals inside that organization must buy into that culture or they would find another job.

Still waiting for the facts though.
 
The retired head of ATF in speeches has made it VERY clear that he thinks all guns should be removed from all citizens hands and only government gXXns should be able to have them. The current head has not let his real view be known but then the old guy didn't let loose until after retirement. I see a pattern here :eek:
 
What, if any, Oversight structure does the ATF have?
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A guy named "Rob" over at the General Accounting Office calls them up once a month to make sure they're still hassling law-abiding gun owners. ;)
 
Another bit from another forum

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=24&t=208067&page=4


Just received a 10 page response to my request to VSP. I will photograph relevant portions tonight and post.

Basically, this was a targeted operation, wherein the ATF personnel at the show would review the SP-65 and 4473 forms, determine if the purchaser was in a certain area (i.e., high crime area), and then send an appropriate local or state LEO to perform a "residence check." There were also "take down" teams to arrest or effect vehicle stops at the direction of ATF. The memo I received also confirmed that the ATF was visited by the gun show promoter's lawyer, and that the ATF SAC has suspended this program.

Also, this was apparently the first time that the Henrico Police were involved in this operation. Previously, ATF and Richmond were the agencies involved. This may explain why the Henrico folks got house calls, and perhaps the Henrico officers were not properly briefed on how to do this tactfully.



Posted :: 8/26/2005 1:11:47 PM
 
Also, this was apparently the first time that the Henrico Police were involved in this operation. Previously, ATF and Richmond were the agencies involved. This may explain why the Henrico folks got house calls, and perhaps the Henrico officers were not properly briefed on how to do this tactfully.
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Just hows DOES one "tactfully" violate the rights of individual American Citizens? Are we to translate this as an "unfortunate miscommunication in an otherwise lawful 'sting' operation"? If so, I have some valuable desert real estate for sale only to Virginia Gun Owners. :rolleyes:

And what's with the automobile "take down teams"? Can anyone remember the last time there was a major shootout at a gun show? Looks to me like someone was looking for one bad apple, in order to condemn the tree; when they didn't find it and got busted for stealing apples, they blamed one of the contract gardeners.
Rich
 
Having been a lawyer and having worked both prosecution and defense, I have seen how some (NOT ALL) agencies and persons in law enforcement view everyone as a criminal and view themselves as gods. I think these shenanigans by ATF are not limited to ATF; ATF is just the most visible to our community.

The times, they are a-changin', and to the detriment of liberty.
 
From a thread over at Glock to. A FOIA Request reply:
 

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