BATFE goes postal in Richmond VA

quelling the rumor

OK, so everybody is asking for confirmation/corroboration.

I know Phillip Van Cleave enough to say "Hi" to him at gun shows and at local political stuff. I also know he pretty much runs www.vcdl.org by himself, although the organization is a whole lot more than just him and the web page.

So I sent an e-mail this PM, and got a response. Here it is, and if Phil does not like that I posted without asking him I will apologize in person next week when I see him.

I will update it sometime over the weekend.

At 6:55 PM -0400 8/19/05, [skidmark] wrote:
>Is there anything since the 8/15 VCDL Alert?
>
>I have seen the issue all over the forums and BBSs, but nothing
>since a post from somebody over at American Malitia who says they
>were caught up in it.

I'm going to chill tonight, do some shooting at the range tomorrow (Dominion Shooting if anyone wants to come by about 11 AM) and then check www.vcdl.org to see if he has posted. If not, I'll check Sunday.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
Not sure this is an independant hard source. Like a newpaper account, police or victim first person account.....Not saying it didn't happen but if it did you would think there would be holy He*** from the NRA or SOMEBODY besides one on line report/alert. Standing by :rolleyes:
 
corroboration begins to filter in

I received this from an vendor friend who was not at the C&E show in Richmond. I asked if he had heard anything from sources NOT connected to VCDL.

I get rumors about what went and reports from a few dealers who were there. It is something that Steve Elliott will make a federal case about and file siute against them, ATF, Bush and the the entire Republican Party, if it is only half true.

I'm going to accept his word that *something* happened, and wait to see what else shows up corroborating the events or giving more detail.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
"The whole thing smells like BS to me. I'd like to see a link to a news article or BATF release."

These abuses may or may not have happened, however, being a cop, I know of more than a few peace officers who feel the public should not own firearms. Knowing that, AND also knowing that there are still officers, local, State and Federal, who abuse their power, don't think for a second something like this COULDN'T happen. There are all kinds of knuckleheaded activites that law enforcement engages in, Most of which is never heard about.

Additionally, why would the feds do a press release about that, if in fact its true? And remember this: The general public is still more intimidated by federal law enforcement than by state or local. The feds know this and use it to their advantage, mostly for good, sometimes not.
 
It is hard to believe because it would be an obnoxiously and egregiously un-constitutional violation of the right to privacy.

But then again the whole thing at Waco is still hard for me to believe and there is no doubt that did happen. How many kids did the feds kill there? And here we are discussing whether or not they asked some impertinent questions?


I am waiting to see if there is corroboration or not.
 
OK-
There seems to be enough credibility to this story to reopen the thread. Henrico county has long been a hotbed of Second Amendment abuses. I've been contacted by several members of Virginia Citizens Defense League assuring me that VCDL is very much on the up and up. Additionally, Phil Van Cleave of VCDL assures me that there's truth to the story.

While I'm still willing to give the LE community benefit of the doubt until we learn more, VCDL also deserves to be heard. This from Van Cleave in the most recent alert:
There has been a huge firestorm on gun-rights sites across the nation
on the actions of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and
Explosives (BATFE), the Richmond Police Department (RPD), and Henrico
County at last week's gun show. As you recall the police were going
to people's houses while the people were at the gun show awaiting
approval to purchase a handgun and interviewing family members and
neighbors about the purchase.

Serious questions are raised about various laws that might have been
broken that weekend.

I have been interviewed by Gun Week, CNS News (an Internet news
service), the NRA's First Freedom magazine, and others who are going
to be doing their own investigations.

However, very strangely, there is a LOCAL MEDIA BLACKOUT on an event
that is stirring up people as far away as Oregon and California! I
don't know if the media is asleep at the switch or just not
interested.

I have been trying to contact a Lieutenant with the RPD who
coordinates with BATFE and Homeland Security to discuss the event,
but so far he has not returned my two phone calls. Hopefully he will
return my call next week. I will keep working this until I get some
answers. Push come to shove, VCDL can bring the issue up at a
Richmond City Council meeting.

I also plan on contacting Henrico. A few members have already
emailed Henrico and I will be watching for any response that Henrico
sends. Again, VCDL can work the issue at a Henrico Board of
Supervisors meeting if necessary.

An observation: On the various chat rooms where this incident is
being discussed at length, a few people who haven't heard of VCDL,
quite understandably questioned the validity of the story. It was
truly humbling for me to see so many people jump in at that point to
explain who we are and what we do.

For those who question how BATFE/police could pull this off in a
timely fashion: At the gun shows in Richmond, the State Police setup
a NICS check room where ALL the dealers drop off their NICS forms.
Later, the dealers check back to see if the NICS check has been
completed and the forms ready. All BATFE has to do is to grab the
forms as they are dropped off by the dealers, call in the contact
info and have an officer dispatched to the house. That officer
reports results of survey back to dispatcher, who in turn gives it to
BATFE. The form is then approved and released to the dealer the next
time he checks back. It is not unusual to have to wait an hour for
approval, so the average gun owner wouldn't really be alerted to
anything until he got home.

Where the disbelief seems to be coming from is that in many states,
the dealer calls in the NICS check from the show floor. Thus BATFE
would have to be in the booth with the dealer to get the NICS info
and make the dealer hold the form until the survey results were
returned. This would have also alerted dealers as to what was going
on. But that isn't how it's done at Richmond gun shows.

As I get more information and the story continues to unfold, I will
keep you posted.
Rich
 
Rich, STILL only ONE source, there must be something else out there that would confirm this. If this turns out to be a hoax or wild stories it will be a major black eye for the 2nd. Ad movement!
 
If the BATF along with local PD/SO's did this them shame on them, for trying to turn family on family, what a childish tactic!

But I also have a question, is buying a firearm covered under any privacy laws? Is the seller forced by law to keep buyers information secret? or can the seller disclose the buyers information at will (by law, not moral)?

I think credit card information and social security numbers are sopposed to be tightly guarded for identity theft, but are those bits of information protected by some sort of privacy clause? Does a seller or retailer have a set of law's stating he/se has to keep this information secret?

If this information is protected by law, then I would sue the BATF, local PF, SO, for invasion of privacy... If they got this information with a warrant I would sue for civil right's violation (4th amendment, no probable cause to ask for my private information ) If they didnt show a warrant and the retailer shared my private information I would sue the retailer, demanding jail time too.


In addition... is it not a violation of our right's every time we go to buy a gun to have to wait (non CCL holders), and show ID? Why is the purchase of a firearm any different than the purchase of a baseball bat? or knife? (my opinion)
 
Someone could file a FIA request for dispatch tapes.....

No dealer or attendee hits this forum?

And frankly, if an agency wanted to screw with gunowners would they pick such a convoluted way to do it?
 
sendec-
Agreed....it seems way over the top. However, the single source we have is pretty steady. Let's all wait and see what shakes out from this.
Rich
 
I posted this on THR and one or two other boards to answer the question...

Who and what is VCDL? Here's the Washington Post article from 11/04. It was on page A1 no less.

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Life Member
____________________________________________________________

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...004Nov13_3.html

Armed and Determined
Va. Group Openly Carries Guns in Its Effort to Change Laws and Minds

By Brigid Schulte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, November 14, 2004; Page A01

RICHMOND -- Philip Van Cleave, a slight, balding, 52-year-old computer programmer, chose beige corduroys to wear this morning, a blue tie and a white shirt with thin blue strips. And a gun to match the outfit.

Van Cleave, president of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, always carries a gun because you never know when you'll need it. But which one to carry and how can be complicated, he said, much like the choice a woman faces in accessorizing her outfit with the right shoes. Today, he picked a compact black .40-caliber Kahr pistol, slipped it into a special holster and dropped it in his front pocket.

Arriving for lunch at a Topeka's Steakhouse 'n' Saloon not far from his suburban home, Van Cleave confronted another choice, an annoying one. Because the restaurant serves alcohol, Virginia law says he can't carry a concealed weapon inside. He would have to wear it in plain view. So he chose a different holster, one that fits inside his belt, leaving the gun exposed. Then he sighed.

"It's a pain to re-conceal it. Sometimes you may have to literally do a striptease," he said. "Isn't it asinine that I even have to worry about that?"

He walked into the restaurant. No one blinked. "Smoking or non?" the waiter asked.

Van Cleave believes that every citizen should have the right to carry guns virtually anywhere, at any time, with no background checks, mandatory training or any other interference from government. "If I do something wrong with a gun, put me in jail," he said. "If I don't, leave me alone."

The Virginia Citizens Defense League and its 2,400 members have gone a long way toward achieving that goal in Virginia. In the past few years, the group has successfully sought out and helped strike down gun control ordinances throughout the state.

Its members fought to overturn a decades-old ban on guns in state parks. Then they went after gun prohibitions in city parks. Some cities, such as Radford, acquiesced within days, quickly painting over "No Firearms" signs. Others, including Norfolk, put up a fight before giving in. They've taken on libraries and Lowe's hardware stores so that gun owners can carry inside. They've boycotted shopping malls that bar guns, and they've published "gun unfriendly business" lists.

They sued Fairfax County and "won big time," Van Cleave said gleefully, to prevent officials from banning guns at recreation centers and county buildings. Thanks, in part, to the league, gun owners soon will be able to carry their weapons as far as the terminal doors at Reagan National and Dulles International airports. But to get lawmakers to allow guns on those airports' property, gun owners lost the long-standing ability to carry weapons all the way up to the metal detectors at most other airport terminals in the state. The league won't stop fighting until they can do so again.

And the group won't stop fighting until gun owners can bring their guns inside, right up to the metal detectors, the way they could in most other Virginia airports until the new airport law passed.

In the past few months, Van Cleave and other group members have been turning up in Northern Virginia with their guns, at restaurants and malls and a contentious Falls Church City Council meeting. The show of weapons was intended to test the resolve of city leaders who, in Van Cleave's view, proposed to "harass" gun owners by calling the police if they showed up with any gun, concealed or exposed, on city property. City leaders called it something else: intimidation.

This year, the league's top priority, as always, is to pass a law that would allow Virginia's 112,000 concealed weapon permit holders to carry their hidden guns into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol, something they were allowed to do until 1995, when the concealed weapons law went into effect, barring it.

Van Cleave organizes group members to flood officials with e-mail, write letters to the editor and show up at rallies and protests. They spend hours at the General Assembly in Richmond listening to boring testimony while politely waiting their turn. Much of the time, their weapons are in plain view.

"All lobbyists can pack a room. They just pack a room with guns," said Dana Schrad, executive director of the Virginia Association of Chiefs of Police, a group that favors some gun restrictions

The Making of a Purist

Something of a night owl, Van Cleave likes to take walks around the lake in his subdivision around midnight. When he does, he "double carries" in case an assailant knocks one weapon out of his hand. It's not about fear, he said. "Who would do that if they were afraid? The word is preparedness."

While he was growing up in Illinois, the only gun in Van Cleave's house was his BB gun. When he was 15, just as the family was moving to Texas, his father died suddenly. The next year, his mother bought him his first gun, a .410-gauge shotgun, and his uncle would take him bird hunting and "plinking" cans. At 21, Van Cleave volunteered to become a reserve deputy sheriff in San Antonio and purchased his first .357 magnum Ruger service revolver.

From that experience, he learned that an assailant with a knife can cover 21 feet in 1.5 seconds, that a bullet can travel 1,500 feet per second. As a deputy, he said, he looked into the eyes of violent criminals and saw no soul, "like a reptile." In this law of the jungle, he said, his gun is the great equalizer.

"I know the odds are slim that I'll ever have to use this. But you've got one life," he said. "If it got into a life-or-death situation, the person without a gun would take themselves out of the gene pool. And I would carry on."

Van Cleave has never shot a gun outside the shooting range. He's never had to draw one. He's never been the victim of a crime "except when someone stole my radio." Since 1984, he's worked out of his home in a quiet, planned community with neighborhoods named Willow Glen and Duck Cove, writing software. He rarely goes out, he said, "except to the grocery store."

He compares carrying a gun to wearing a seat belt. "I have insurance on my house, even though I don't think it's going to burn down," he said. "Things can happen."

Van Cleave joined the league in 1995, a year after it was founded by a group of men incensed that Iran-contra figure Oliver L. North was turned down for a concealed weapon permit. At the time, under a 1942 law, judges could decide whether to issue a concealed weapon permit to private citizens, based on proven necessity and whether the person was "of good character."

When the league and other gun rights advocates got the law changed -- now anyone except a felon can apply for and get a concealed weapon permit -- Van Cleave began to carry a weapon at all times. "I felt naked without it," he said.

He also became a purist. The Second Amendment is critical, he came to believe. Legal experts argue over its meaning, but Van Cleave shares the view of gun groups that it establishes the right to defend yourself, to defend the country against outside attack and "to take back your country should it ever become a totalitarian state."

"We're not envisioning America being taken over anytime soon," he said. "But with al Qaeda, you never know. The citizens will probably need to secure their own homes and restore order until the government got back on its feet."

In his living room, Van Cleave proudly displays the 2004 Grassroots Organization of the Year award from the national Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. The league's command center, so to speak, is upstairs. In it, Van Cleave said, are the computers with which he scans the Internet to keep up on changes in gun laws, monitors chat rooms such as Packing.org and sends out weekly VA-ALERT e-mails to 3,500 subscribers. Sometimes, he stays up until 2 a.m. scrolling through news stories about innocents gunned down who might have been able to save themselves, he said, had they been armed.

Despite his citation, Van Cleave said he has no patience for what he calls the hypocrisy of national gun groups, who have not always supported the league's tactics. "If you can't exercise a right because you might offend someone or you're afraid someone will take it away, well, then you've already lost it."

The league has been scolded privately by national gun rights advocates for openly carrying en masse. Some league members showed up with weapons in full view at a September gun rights conference in Crystal City as the C-SPAN cameras started to roll. Conference organizers asked them to conceal or leave.

(continued...)
 
(...the rest of the article)

Joe Waldron, executive director of the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, wrote in an e-mail that was later circulated on the Web that Van Cleave and league members threatened to turn the event into a "see the gun nuts wearing guns on their hips conference."

State Sen. Kenneth W. Stolle (R-Virginia Beach), a former police officer and a gun rights advocate, and other lawmakers have warned the group that their "in your face" open-carry tactics might serve only to galvanize the opposition. "They are turning a smoldering spark into a raging fire right now as the state becomes more urban and less rural," he said. "That's a battle that they may be likely to lose."

David F. Snyder, a Falls Church City Council member, is a case in point. When Van Cleave and league members carried weapons to a recent meeting to protest a gun control proposal, Snyder became more determined to fight them.

"Everyone I talk to asks, 'What planet are you on?' They're astounded that people are free to carry guns into governmental legislative chambers. It's absurd," he said. "It's time that someone draws the line and said that's not going to happen. We're not backing down."

Although the league is visible and tenacious, its true power comes from the General Assembly, considered one of the most gun-friendly legislative bodies in the nation. Gov. Mark R. Warner, a Democrat who openly courted the National Rifle Association to win election, signed 15 pro-gun bills into law in the last session alone.

In two separate and largely unnoticed actions in recent years, lawmakers in Richmond overturned the right of cities and counties to make their own gun control ordinances. In 1987, lawmakers prohibited localities from making new gun control laws. This year, they wiped out any gun regulations that existed prior to 1987. Gone was Alexandria's handgun ban. Gone was the 60-year-old Fairfax County law requiring a three-day waiting period for gun purchases.

On July 1, the latest "state preemption" law went into effect. Now, guns may be carried anywhere but in courthouses, schools, churches during services or on clearly posted private property. Concealed guns are banned in bars.

Van Cleave said the open carrying helps educate citizens and the police, many of whom did not know how liberal Virginia's gun laws are. When police stripped two young men of their weapons in a Starbucks near Tysons Corner in June, Van Cleave wrote memos to set Fairfax police straight.

Del. Mark L. Cole (R-Fredericksburg), a league supporter, said the restaurant ban is "a stupid law. There's not one incident that I know of where someone concealed carried, where they get drunk and shoot up the place."

Outraged gun control advocates, however, refer to the proposal to end the ban as the "designated shooter" bill.

The National Rifle Association, with 100,000 members in Virginia, has not taken a position on the restaurant bill for the upcoming session. And it largely keeps its distance from the Virginia Citizens Defense League.

"I've never run into them. Never talked to them," said Randy Kozuch, the NRA's national director of state and local affairs. "I think they just want to stir it up."

Always Within Reach

Back from lunch and practice at a nearby shooting range, Van Cleave unwinds on his mauve sofa in his mauve living room amid silk flowers and tiny crystal tchotchkes. In the kitchen, his wife tends to the tiny papillon show dogs she breeds. They have no children.

The one place you don't see a gun is in his suburban home. They may be locked away in his gun safe with its rapid-action pressure lock for quick opening in the night should an intruder break in. He won't say. He will tell you that one is always within reach and that each one is equipped with tiny dots of green-glowing radioactive tritium, the better to locate in the dark.

"Security," he said, "is 24 hours a day."
 
I'm still not understanding why a federal agency, upholding the law (even if they are unConstitutional, that's another debate/thread on it's own) feels the need to harass and try to cause trouble for legal people, doing legal things.

I say that the ATFE should be disbanded and the people that work there put into the street.

Because of some stupid woman (IIRC), the advent of the ATF came about when they decided to outlaw booze, and then got worse in 1934 over a shotgun that WAS used in military action and then really got footing in 1968, 1986, and 1994.

This is one agency that has really proven that it doesn't need to exist.

Wayne
 
Proof - where is it? NOT here, still just ONE single source. All the nice things said about the source mean Nothing! I am not saying it did not happen but I demand some evidence besides ONE online report!! There MUST be some other verified source that can back up the report somewhere. :confused: Until then this remains in the internet hoax category.

PS: USP45usp. Does that mean we don't have to worry (about you loosing your mind?) as its too weak to get very far? :D
 
Seattle Office would not know; WA DC Office would not tell and the VA Office is most likely in bunker mode right now, whether it happened or not. My point (and I do have one) is that IF this happened to so many people in so fascist like style then SOMEBODY that was affected/victim/involved cop would be talking. So far zip - nada except the one on line report. Standing by to stand by Cougar :D
Further (he said standing back farther from the paint can) at least one person on this forum has asked the author of the single report for additional information and follow-up which has not been forth coming. Why? :confused:
It looks like the only response (I have seen) from the author of the report is to repeat how many times he has been interviewed, not provide any proof of his allegations which he has by his silence (so far) refused to address

Hoax status remains unchanged pending further info.
 
BATF Doings in Virginia

I found this on another sight.Can anyone yea or na it?

[This from Claire Wolf's blog]

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08/18/2005 Entry: "BATFE harrassment in Virginia"

BATFE harrassment in Virginia.

Raving Reporter Thunder here. I just recieved this e-mail from VCDL (Virginia Citizen's Defense League, a pro-gun organization more effective than the NRA here in VA.) and felt I needed to share it with you all. Keep on the lookout for this crap.


The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show! The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.



If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters, went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000 this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not. Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's name, badge number, and department.


Of course, contact whomever you need to in your state to inform them of this harrassment by F-Troop.


Update link on the issue.

http://www.clairewolfe.com/wolfesblog/00001575.html
 
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