BATFE goes postal in Richmond VA
- Thread starter skidmark
- Start date
The NRA's take:
"Thank you for your inquiry concerning the activities of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) at a recent gun show in Richmond,
Virginia. The show promoter and his attorneys have met with senior BATFE headquarters personnel to discuss this matter. Everyone involved agrees that BATFE attendance at gun shows can be legitimate both for investigating federal firearms violations and for educating dealers and the public about federal firearms laws. However, BATFE has acknowledged that its presence at this show was excessive and counterproductive. In particular, BATFE has stated that it will no longer coordinate or conduct the type of wholesale, highly intrusive "residency verifications" that took place in connection with the Richmond show.
Please rest assured that the NRA will continue to examine problems with the
enforcement of federal firearms laws as part of our ongoing efforts to protect
Second Amendment rights.
Sincerely,
Amanda Millward"
"Thank you for your inquiry concerning the activities of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) at a recent gun show in Richmond,
Virginia. The show promoter and his attorneys have met with senior BATFE headquarters personnel to discuss this matter. Everyone involved agrees that BATFE attendance at gun shows can be legitimate both for investigating federal firearms violations and for educating dealers and the public about federal firearms laws. However, BATFE has acknowledged that its presence at this show was excessive and counterproductive. In particular, BATFE has stated that it will no longer coordinate or conduct the type of wholesale, highly intrusive "residency verifications" that took place in connection with the Richmond show.
Please rest assured that the NRA will continue to examine problems with the
enforcement of federal firearms laws as part of our ongoing efforts to protect
Second Amendment rights.
Sincerely,
Amanda Millward"
Rich Lucibella
Staff
This entire incident and response are unacceptable. The only thing more unacceptable is the NRA response.
From what I've read and seen admitted, this is a clear case of intimidation and abuse. Jobs should be lost over this; and legal action considered. I pay the NRA to lead these kinds of battles, not play "Gotcha, but we'll be watching more closely next time." If proactive response is not undertaken, those who blew the whistle will be hung out to dry...the NRA should be holding them up as role models to provide them some protection from potential repercussion.
Rich
From what I've read and seen admitted, this is a clear case of intimidation and abuse. Jobs should be lost over this; and legal action considered. I pay the NRA to lead these kinds of battles, not play "Gotcha, but we'll be watching more closely next time." If proactive response is not undertaken, those who blew the whistle will be hung out to dry...the NRA should be holding them up as role models to provide them some protection from potential repercussion.
Rich
Not sure even the NRA can take the rouge BATFE on, head on. The only persons that hold its leash is the Congress who controls the money. We ALMOST got BATFE rolled into the Treasury Dept a couple of years ago. If that had happened those clowns would have had to really work for a living...I think that would be the only thing that could cork it for good. Seems we will never get rid of the this "tax agency" (you do know that its only power is when taxs are not paid right? Thats when its "enforcement" power comes into play) is roll it into a bigger agency and disperse the personnel... 
Misinformed
"Not sure even the NRA can take the rouge [sic] BATFE on, head on. The only persons that hold its leash is the Congress who controls the money. We ALMOST got BATFE rolled into the Treasury Dept a couple of years ago."
Wrong. BATF was ALWAYS part of the Treasury Dept., as each of the three items expressly set forth in its name were - and are - taxed.
It BECAME the BATFE "a couple of years ago" when the post-9/11 reorganization put it under the DoJ and added explosives to its mandate.
What "almost" happened about 12 years ago was the complete elimination of BATF, as its functions are already covered largely by the FBI and IRS.
"Not sure even the NRA can take the rouge [sic] BATFE on, head on. The only persons that hold its leash is the Congress who controls the money. We ALMOST got BATFE rolled into the Treasury Dept a couple of years ago."
Wrong. BATF was ALWAYS part of the Treasury Dept., as each of the three items expressly set forth in its name were - and are - taxed.
It BECAME the BATFE "a couple of years ago" when the post-9/11 reorganization put it under the DoJ and added explosives to its mandate.
What "almost" happened about 12 years ago was the complete elimination of BATF, as its functions are already covered largely by the FBI and IRS.
Ptown Beretta
Moderator
Once again, NRA selling out. Wow, this is insanity.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The only thing more unacceptable is the NRA response."
Not sure why that is.
That reads to me as a generic, boiler plate response that could mean any of a wide variety of things.
Not sure why that is.
That reads to me as a generic, boiler plate response that could mean any of a wide variety of things.
"Independent agency"
"...my point is that aslong as BATFE is a stand alone agency it will be out of control as its history indicates. By stand alone I mean it exists as a separate entity and internal agenda."
Once again, BATF/BATFE has NEVER been a "separate entity." Grasp the concept.
"...my point is that aslong as BATFE is a stand alone agency it will be out of control as its history indicates. By stand alone I mean it exists as a separate entity and internal agenda."
Once again, BATF/BATFE has NEVER been a "separate entity." Grasp the concept.
Meanwhile, somebody check my line of reasoning in this post I just made on GlockTalk and THR.
Here's the link to the Code of Virginia pertaining to the purchase requirements. The link is one of many listed on the Virginia State Police site. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...od+18.2-308.2:2
Here's what bothers me about the local police driving around while the purchaser waits...the law does not authorize it...
"Upon receipt of the request for a criminal history record information check, the State Police shall (1) review its criminal history record information to determine if the buyer or transferee is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm by state or federal law, (2) inform the dealer if its record indicates that the buyer or transferee is so prohibited, and (3) provide the dealer with a unique reference number for that inquiry.
2. The State Police shall provide its response to the requesting dealer during the dealer's request, or by return call without delay."
It says "...(1) review its criminal history record information..."
It says "...shall provide its response...without delay."
This is the Code of Virginia. The State Police should not be delaying the response to the dealer while Henrico or Richmond officers are driving to the purchaser's home.
John
Here's the link to the Code of Virginia pertaining to the purchase requirements. The link is one of many listed on the Virginia State Police site. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/leg...od+18.2-308.2:2
Here's what bothers me about the local police driving around while the purchaser waits...the law does not authorize it...
"Upon receipt of the request for a criminal history record information check, the State Police shall (1) review its criminal history record information to determine if the buyer or transferee is prohibited from possessing or transporting a firearm by state or federal law, (2) inform the dealer if its record indicates that the buyer or transferee is so prohibited, and (3) provide the dealer with a unique reference number for that inquiry.
2. The State Police shall provide its response to the requesting dealer during the dealer's request, or by return call without delay."
It says "...(1) review its criminal history record information..."
It says "...shall provide its response...without delay."
This is the Code of Virginia. The State Police should not be delaying the response to the dealer while Henrico or Richmond officers are driving to the purchaser's home.
John
#6, BATFE is independent in that it has its own director and command. It is in that since a stand alone agency and I repeat that is the problem. If even the Congress can't get rid of it then fold it out so far for all intents and purposes it does not exist. Grasp your own concept and get a clue about the main point of discussion instead of bouncing points for yourself on the forum. Do you have anything positive to contribute?
XavierBreath
New member
Along the lines of johnbt's post.........
"(g)(3)(B) Except in the case of forms and contents thereof regarding a purchaser who is prohibited by [federal law] from receipt of a firearm, the department of State Police or State law enforcement agency or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction shall not disclose any such form or the contents thereof to any person or entity, and shall destroy each such form and any record of the contents thereof no more than 20 days from the date such form is received."
One wonders if "any person or entity" includes federal agencies such as BATFE, and individuals such as spouses, brothers and neighbors.
"(g)(3)(B) Except in the case of forms and contents thereof regarding a purchaser who is prohibited by [federal law] from receipt of a firearm, the department of State Police or State law enforcement agency or local law enforcement agency of the local jurisdiction shall not disclose any such form or the contents thereof to any person or entity, and shall destroy each such form and any record of the contents thereof no more than 20 days from the date such form is received."
One wonders if "any person or entity" includes federal agencies such as BATFE, and individuals such as spouses, brothers and neighbors.
butch, you're assuming they share your world view. Many probably do not. They believe that by doing background checks, residency checks, and whatever other checks, and by vigorously enforcing stiff penalties when unauthorized people get guns, they are keeping some of the bad guys from having guns, thereby protecting the rest of us, not to mention avoiding bad publicity resulting from crimes involving guns.
I doubt they are keeping too many guns from too many felons. Noted felon G. Gordon Liddy owns no guns, but says that Mrs. Liddy has a nice collection.
I doubt they are keeping too many guns from too many felons. Noted felon G. Gordon Liddy owns no guns, but says that Mrs. Liddy has a nice collection.
"Points" and purpose
"Grasp your own concept and get a clue about the main point of discussion instead of bouncing points for yourself on the forum."
The point of this thread was the abusive, and probably illegal, actions of the BATFE, state and local police. Your misstatements of fact about BATFE were neither correct nor on point.
"Do you have anything positive to contribute?"
Corrections to misstatements like yours. What benefit have you conferred on these readers?
"Grasp your own concept and get a clue about the main point of discussion instead of bouncing points for yourself on the forum."
The point of this thread was the abusive, and probably illegal, actions of the BATFE, state and local police. Your misstatements of fact about BATFE were neither correct nor on point.
"Do you have anything positive to contribute?"
Corrections to misstatements like yours. What benefit have you conferred on these readers?
I fear that you are correct. It seems that giving a man a uniform and a gun can sometimes create monsters who believe themselves to be heros - anyone remember My Lai 4?
Any cop who could go to a personal residence to ask the wife if she knows that her husband is at a gun show buying guns, and doesn't see himself for the cretin he has become, has become the worst form of LEO there is.
I can't see how residency checks could serve much of a useful purpose, and it's true that they are, at least as described in the article, somewhat intrusive, but come on now. Cretins? The worst form of LEO? How about those who take bribes, those who assault people, steal their property, rape, and even kill people? That kind of thing goes on around the world every day.