Bad guys in my area are starting to wear vests

[jtmckinney]

JohnKSa, In post #62 you said"

"It may or may not penetrate the vest depending on the vest and the type of bullet, but regardless it won't knock the person back "many ft." unless it also knocks the shooter back "many ft."

With respect I have to disagree. In appendix B of Lyman Third Edition "Pistol & Revolver" handbook the examples for a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps "Energy In Foot-Pounds" at 2428 ft-lbs and "Free Recoil Energy" at 13.86 lb-lbs. When you plug in the bullet and velocity for any round the bullet energy is many times greater than the felt recoil.

To the OP original post the .40 is going to have more energy than the .380. That doesn't mean I would not defend myself with the .380 if that was what I had at my disposal at the time. I would carry the .40 with the biggest bullet my gun would feed reliably.

Assuming the body armor is going to stop the bullet my first thought is the FMJ would penetrate the jacket farthur than the HP. FMJ penetrating these layers would consume energy that the HP might transfer to the BG. Maybe this would make the HP the more effective of the two with everything else being equal (I said maybe).

I also think a COM shot where the body armor stops the bullet the energy is transfered to the BG in a way that may; kill him, immobilize him for a long time, or give you at least a few seconds for a follow up shot and/or better the circumstances in your favor. I do not think it would bounce off with no effect.

If the BG is wearing body armor he is also probably also armed so the most important thing is to get off the first shot that counts.

Hope you never actually need any of this advice.
James

 

[rdmallory]

Shooting a gangbanger in the groin is not a good tactic in my book...they wear their pants around their thighs

Definitely makes aiming for the belt buckle out.

Doug

 

[oneounceload]

"It may or may not penetrate the vest depending on the vest and the type of bullet, but regardless it won't knock the person back "many ft." unless it also knocks the shooter back "many ft."

With respect I have to disagree. In appendix B of Lyman Third Edition "Pistol & Revolver" handbook the examples for a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps "Energy In Foot-Pounds" at 2428 ft-lbs and "Free Recoil Energy" at 13.86 lb-lbs. When you plug in the bullet and velocity for any round the bullet energy is many times greater than the felt recoil.

Disagree all you want, Newton's laws are what they are - that "equal action and reaction type of stuff".....besides, ACTUAL recoil is different than FELT recoil - one is a physics calculation, the other is a subjective opinion based on fit of the gun

 

[swede4198]

I train with a SWAT instructor and his recommendation is two COM, one to the head, reassess. If you didn't make the head shot then go to the groin. His reasoning is that the head shot takes the BG out right then, groin shots take some time to be effective so the BG can still get off several shots at you.

You need to train better than shooting at fixed target. Join a range where you can move front, back and sideways while shooting at multiple targets. Shoot at moving and reactionary targets. Join in competitions which will get you an adrenalin rush which will mess with your skills. Practice malfunction drills (FTF, FTE) and reloading. Learn to drop your empty mags instead of gently putting them away because the couple of seconds saved might mean life or death. In real life you can go back for your mags if you win, if you lose you won't care.

 

[JohnKSa]

With respect I have to disagree. In appendix B of Lyman Third Edition "Pistol & Revolver" handbook the examples for a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps "Energy In Foot-Pounds" at 2428 ft-lbs and "Free Recoil Energy" at 13.86 lb-lbs. When you plug in the bullet and velocity for any round the bullet energy is many times greater than the felt recoil.

I understand about energy and momentum and rather than try to explain it, here are some pictures of a human sized/weighted crash test dummy with an armor plate welded into its torso being shot at point blank range with a .50BMG rifle. The 750 gr bullet stopped in the torso so the dummy soaked up the entire energy load, over 11,000 ftlbs.

It wasn't knocked back feet. It might have been knocked back a couple inches. It was bumped off the supports it was on and it fell down.

Note that the rod through the dummy's chest can easily slide off the rails. (yellow circle) And yet in the last frame the dummy has fallen mostly straight down after the impact bumped the rod off the rails.

In the side view it's clear that the dummy moves backward only a few inches as it falls downward out of the frame.

Here's a video that shows a man wearing a bulletproof vest and balancing on one leg while being shot at a range of a couple of feet with a .308 rifle. He was not knocked back "many ft.", in fact he wasn't knocked back at all.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=310_1212367354

There is no pistol that you can safely hold and fire that will knock an opponent back any significant amount. CERTAINLY not "many ft.".

 

[jmstr]

I can't add anything to this discussion, but where [state at least, city would be great] do you live?

 

[Wag]

Disagree all you want, Newton's laws are what they are - that "equal action and reaction type of stuff".....besides, ACTUAL recoil is different than FELT recoil - one is a physics calculation, the other is a subjective opinion based on fit of the gun

Arms absorb the majority of the recoil. Chest cavities do not. You can't really equate the two in a simple equation.

--Wag--

 

[JohnKSa]

You can't really equate the two in a simple equation.

What is certain is that there is no way the bullet impact from a handgun, not even a 500Magnum, is going to knock a person back "many feet" or even any significant amount.

If a .50BMG bullet at point blank range won't do it and a .308 rifle bullet from a couple of feet won't do it then a handgun certainly won't either.

 

[mikerault]

An 8mm mauser FMJ (military surplus) was able to penetrate 1/4 inch steel plate shedding the jacket and making a nearly perfectly round hole, it also penetrated the same plate leaving with a hole about 2 inches in diameter. This was shooting through a commercial waterheater tank.

An 8mm round would probably go through a vest.

However, 5-10 COM shots from a 9mm shooting +P ammo would probably put their tails in the dirt allowing a follow up shot if needed.

Mike

 

[Falcon642]

I live in Washington State, specifically central Washington. Since I'm talking about two my students, I'm going to be careful about how many details I give since that could get me in trouble.

I will say that the gangs around here are directly connected to gangs in Mexico. This last summer one of the major gang leaders what shot in the face with a shotgun, within 3 days extra gang members had arrived from Mexico to settle scores.

The direct connection to Mexico is alot of the reason why gang members around here are so well armed and armored. Better stop there or I may make this thread too political.

 

[8shot357]

Washington state, that's a long way from Mexico. You'll have to move to Canada to get any further north.

 

[NWPilgrim]

Central Washington (Yakima, Union Gap, Wenatchee, etc.) is the big fruit orchard, canning and other agricultural area of Washington. Lots of migrant labor, thus the high level Mexican presence. Sort of like the Willamette Valley in Oregon.

I remember my wife went to a educators conference in Yakima 15-20 years ago and they were all shocked how dangerous the neighborhood was around the hotel. At the time neither of us were vary familiar with how it had changed since I had been over there in the 70s. I researched it more afterward and was dismayed to see the gang presence even back in the early 90s. Major drug hub for Washington state.

Given those conditions I would definitely have a rifle or carbine ready at hand in the home and remember the adage that a handgun is a means to fight your way to your rifle. Talk to your neighbors to see if any are willing to help keep a watch on the neighborhood. Everyone stands a better chance of averting or surviving gang threats if they call the cops and stand up with each other. One family standing alone doesn;t have much chance if they decide to target you eventually.

 

[Falcon642]

Washington state, that's a long way from Mexico. You'll have to move to Canada to get any further north.

Don't have to go any further north, just one state to the east. My native Idaho doesn't have these problems, nor does Utah, Wyoming, Montana, etc, etc.

Welcome to Washington State, if it isn't a problem in Seattle then it isn't a problem for the state.

 

[PIGMAN]

Also consider getting a pistol with a rail in order to mount a laser. A laser can give really give you an edge especially in low light situations.

 

[bamaranger]

move!

Fella, if I was teaching in an area that had 'bangers, who were armored and arming, I would find myself a new place to teach school.


There are teaching jobs a plenty I would think. Find another one where you don't have such worries.

 

[Southern Rebel]

its funny reading people talk about head/pelvis/arm pit shots when they'd be more likely to pee themselves if someone came at them with a gun and a vest on..i love that we can be dirty harry thanks to a few keystrokes

MidwestRookie,

I doubt that you are taking into consideration the level of motivation of the defender. I just can't see peeing myself when my family is at risk.
Your bodily functions, however, are your own so I won't try to dictate how you use them in a moment of stress.

To give you an example of motivation:
My wife is paranoid to the extreme when it comes to snakes - regardless of their poisonous nature or the lack therof. Howver, I came home after work and found the remnants of a small rattlesnake which had been hacked to death (several pieces!) with a kitchen butcher knife. When I asked her about it, she calmly replied, "Well, my dog was barking at it and I was afraid it was gonna bite my dog!" There was no evidence of leakage on her part and she was a lot more mad that scared.

If that snake had been just a threat to her, I have no doubt she would have hastily retreated and maybe even left a wet streak to mark her retreat. However, imminent danger to those you care about can bring out courage that most of don't realize we have. YMMV

 

[Southern Rebel]

Question: My knowledge of the effectiveness of body armor is zilch. Would a .223 round from a Kel-tec PLR-16 have any penetration abilities? That is my truck pistol when I driving in some of the more remote rural areas around where I live. (Note: If not, I suspect they will be wounded in their ears if they aren't wearing any hearing protection!)

 

[WANT A LCR 22LR]

The question still stands, what does the local mayor/police/ county - state governor have to say about the gang problem? The problem isn't going to go away because you carry armor piercing ammo.

 

[8shot357]

Don't have to go any further north, just one state to the east. My native Idaho doesn't have these problems, nor does Utah, Wyoming, Montana, etc, etc.

Welcome to Washington State, if it isn't a problem in Seattle then it isn't a problem for the state.

Welcome to the West (Left) coast! I just didn't know it went so far north.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Neither of you handguns will penetrate body armor with any type of ammunition that is legal for you to own (purpose-made armor-piercing handgun ammo is not legal for civilians).

Not true. Whether or not pistol ammo can penetrate body armor is not what makes it armor-piercing ammo. The calibers possessed by the OP can penetrate body armor assuming the armor is rated low enough.

Forget the headshot! Remember the N. Hollywood bank heist of a few years ago.A dozen or more trained police officers were unable to stop the two bad guys who had body armor and automatic weapons.

At North Hollywood, IIRC the problem was that the shooters pinned down the officers fairly far away, and the officers were armed only with pistols and shotguns that were ill-suited to deliver an accurate long-range headshot.

Actually, dozens of officers fired 800+ rounds. The problem that they had was not that their pistols and shotguns were ill-suited for delivering long range accurate shots. The problem was that the officers were shooting at distances 3-5 times the maximum qualification and training distance for their pistols and had no idea where the POI really was at the distance firing and had no training in leading moving targets, the bad guys being in motion most of the time. Even if officers made well aimed pistol shots that would hit where desired, with the bad guy in motion, the shots ended up arriving at the location where the bad guy used to be. As for the shotguns, they would have been great at 75-125 yards, if they had the right ammo. They had buckshot and were not allowed slugs. Slugs can be shot accurate at those distances.

Seriously, a crotch shot will break some serious bones and the bad guy will go down like a sack of potatos.

Seriously, given people's understanding of human anatomy and biomechanics of the skeletal system, folks are not likely to place the rounds in a perfect enough location to hit the pubic bones or the pubic symphasis. Even hit, it does not mean that the pectoral girdle will fail or that the bad guy will collapse.

Any football player will know to watch the opponent's hips, not head, for where he is going. Easy to swing the head to and fro but the hips are only moving when the whole body moves.

Any football player that tells you this is absolutely wrong and certainly has never been dancing.

JohnKSa, In post #62 you said"

"It may or may not penetrate the vest depending on the vest and the type of bullet, but regardless it won't knock the person back "many ft." unless it also knocks the shooter back "many ft."

With respect I have to disagree. In appendix B of Lyman Third Edition "Pistol & Revolver" handbook the examples for a 150 grain bullet at 2700 fps "Energy In Foot-Pounds" at 2428 ft-lbs and "Free Recoil Energy" at 13.86 lb-lbs. When you plug in the bullet and velocity for any round the bullet energy is many times greater than the felt recoil.

Unless the bullet is fired with a booster rocket that ignites after leaving the gun, the round is not going to impact with more energy than it left the gun. It just is not possible.

I also think a COM shot where the body armor stops the bullet the energy is transfered to the BG in a way that may; kill him, immobilize him for a long time, or give you at least a few seconds for a follow up shot and/or better the circumstances in your favor. I do not think it would bounce off with no effect.

There is absolutely no empirical evidence to support your beliefs that a COM shot stopped by a vest may kill or immobilize the bad guy save for the exremely rare timing of a thump to the heart between beats that may stop the heart, but that can be accomplished with a fist as well and such events happen only extremely rarely.

Go back and reread about the incidents documented in the kevlar suvivors club and see how many of the people wearing body armor were immobilized by the impacts of incoming rounds. You wil find lots of incidents where officers are shot and are able to return fire just fine.

If the BG is wearing body armor he is also probably also armed so the most important thing is to get off the first shot that counts.

My father received his police training in the 1950s. They too were taught that it was important to get the first shot off in a gunfight, even if that shot went into the ground. The lesson is garbage. You end up with a motivated bad guy who knows you can't shoot and you are down a round.

The most important thing may be to get the first shots that land on target, but just getting off the first shot is pretty meaningless.