Bad guys in my area are starting to wear vests

In my experience... A community usually won't know it has a gang problem until it's too late to do anything preventive. Gang problems IMO are usually first found in schools. Then Law Enforcement, then maybe politicians will give it some lip service.

Gangs are usually cut along racial, and cultural lines. Politicians IMO tend to be slow to criticize, or complain along racial, and curltural lines for fear of offending a voting block. The police are answerable to politics, and are often ham-strung until violence is out of control. Then blamed for their lack of control.

As the individual citizen, many of us dont have the wherewithall, or the option to pick up and leave. IMO The only real option is to prepare to protect ourselves, and our neighbors. It seems that the American people have become a government dependant bunch of cowards who run like church mice when we hear something frightining.

Liberals say that violence only begets violence. I say that only violence can cure violence. If your local bangers choose to impede on your life with the threat of violence, I say answer in kind. He he has a knife... get a gun. If he gets a gun... answer with a rifle. Eventually they will either be eliminated, or they will figure that your as much the predator as they are, and move on to a weaker set of victims.

Only when the decent law abiding citizens forget their differences and stand together against this virus will anything change. Only when parents realize their children may be part of the problem can things begin to change.

And then I woke up...lol

Seriously... IMO if anyone imagines they will be taking these fancy shots, and controlling armed hordes they better gun-up... get some serious training, do some serious practice, get in with like minded people and organize.

After thats the biggest difference between any group of us and a gang... they are organized.

END OF RANT!!!

Glenn
 
Any football player that tells you this is absolutely wrong and certainly has never been dancing.

You are right, I was never a dancer, just a varsity defense tackle. That's what my coach taught me and that is what I applied to good effect. I watched the running back's center of mass (which is just above the hips, not the chest) to which direction they are truly going, not the directionthey want to fake.

Same thing in wrestling, a person moves when their center of mass (hips) move. Such as when facing off for a take down. Arms and head are used for misdirection. Now, once on the mat you can exert control over the person by controlling the head, hips and shoulders. ut when facing off trying to determine if the person is gogin to move right or left to didge or shoot in, I watch the hips.

Any dancer that tells you to watch the head for true direction has never played defense in football.
 
Arms absorb the majority of the recoil. Chest cavities do not. You can't really equate the two in a simple equation.

Physics is physics - matters not whether it is arms or chest. ACTUAL recoil is just that - and it is equal in both directions. If it doesn't knock YOU backwards several feet, it won't do it to the perp - Hollywierd crap notwithstanding
 
"Any football player that tells you this is absolutely wrong and certainly has never been dancing."


I can see a fullback wearing body armor, but unless its pink can't see a dancer with a tutu in body armor:D

Sorry, couldn't resist.....Carry on, nothing to see in this post
 
Hips/CG and direction of movement

DNS, not sure what your dancing reference is toward. Pivot moves, maybe?

But I have to disagree with you, for the most part, on this one. I paid attention to hips back in my wrestling days; I paid attention to hips when I played a lot of racquetball; I pay attention to feet and hips now, when I go for a throw or takedown in aikido or jujitsu.

Hips usually do provide a lot more accurate assessment than do head or eye movements.
 
lol this is too much...

its funny reading people talk about head/pelvis/arm pit shots when they'd be more likely to pee themselves if someone came at them with a gun and a vest on..i love that we can be dirty harry thanks to a few keystrokes..:cool:

Yes, we ALL can...actually, there's nothing wrong with having a game plan, or practicing for a possible (albeit unlikely) scenario. LEO's run through potential scenarios in their heads on the way to calls and practice worst case scenarios at the range. Why? Because you need to train as you fight and be ready for the tunnel vision that will accompany the battle. That way you can still fight while ******* yourself.

Sent from my SGH-T849 using Tapatalk
 
You are right, I was never a dancer, just a varsity defense tackle. That's what my coach taught me and that is what I applied to good effect. I watched the running back's center of mass (which is just above the hips, not the chest) to which direction they are truly going, not the directionthey want to fake.

Good for you, but that doesn't make the statement correct. The hips can be moved in all sorts of directions the person isn't traveling and be used for misdirection. Since you played football, they you must be well aware of the hip fake, or didn't your coach teach you about it?

http://books.google.com/books?id=ES...ed=0CBgQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=hip fake&f=false
http://www.ehow.com/how_4449063_use-shoulders-hips-fake-defender.html
http://www.soccerman.com/moves-and-fakes/soccer-move-hip-fake
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcAVAJNAyOQ

Hips usually do provide a lot more accurate assessment than do head or eye movements.
MLeake, you are correct. They can and usually do provide a more accurate assessment than do head or eye movements, but the statement made was that...

...but the hips are only moving when the whole body moves.

As an absolute, the statement is not valid. I am glad y'all listened to coaches. So did I. ;)
 
So the 7.62X25 Tokarev will penetrate Level II body armor, could you get the same thing out of a .327 Magnum?

The Tokarev fires a 7.8mm (0.31 in) diameter bullet. It will drive a 85 grain bullet at 1700 fps out of a 4.7 inch barrel.

The .327 Mag fires a 7.9mm (0.32 in) diameter bullet. It will drive a 100 grain bullet at 1600 fps out of a 4 inch barrel.

Right now .327's are easier to find than a 7.62 Tokarev, but I don't know if you can get a .327 to punch through a vest like the Tokarev will. Is there anyone who can answer this?
 
No concealable handgun can defeat body armor reliably. I'm a peace officer & we're taught 2 to the chest & if you do not get the desired result, 1 to the head. I also agree to the groin, but some vests extend pretty low.
 
Just to clarify, no handgun round is going to just bounce off body armor. It'll knock the wind clean out of him at the very least, and probably drop him on his butt. The type of body armor civilians can buy is meant to save your life, not to make bullets bounce off you.
 
I don't have a citation, but I remember reading an article where they tested .357 Sig against armor. They got pretty good results with the Fiocchi truncated cone fmj. IIRC, they were shooting class 2 body armor with 10" of ballistics gel in the middle and the bullets were going through the front of the vest and the gel before stopping.
 
DNS:The hips can be moved in all sorts of directions the person isn't traveling and be used for misdirection.

What I actually said was:
I watched the running back's center of mass (which is just above the hips, not the chest) to which direction they are truly going, not the direction they want to fake.

But if I see a banger coming at me swishing and swiveling his hips to and fro, I guess I will be faked out. :D

In real life watching center of mass works to determine where the person approaching you is and will be. When the center of mass just above the hips moves, that person is in fact at that location. That is, your location is defined by your center of mass.

Try this out. Let's say at 15 ft you can hit a two inch circle under stress and immediate reaction, low light. Would you rather try to hit a 8 inch wide head mounted on a flexible neck that can bob and weave well beyond that 4 inches? Or, shoot at the beltline/hips that are maybe 15 inches wide and can not be so easily moved back and forth beyond that 2 inch circle of aim? One side of the head only needs to move 5 inches to completely clear your possible impact area. The much heavier hips have to move 8.5 inches to clear the impact area.

You can shoot at whatever you want DNS. I choose to use techniques that have worked for me all my life. I don't buy into arm chair quarterbacking theories. I don't care what YouTube videos you watch. The percentage of players that can actually do a proper "hip fake" that will throw you off even for for a moment is a very small fraction of running backs. And that is of people who actually practice such moves. It does not come naturally to most people to move your hips in a direction you are not going. Ask how many tackles, ends, guards, or linebackers can do a proper hip fake. Now ask your neighborhood gang banger. In wrestling which is at closer distance I never heard or saw anyone use a "hip fake". I'm not real worried bout a banger hip faking me like a champion running back.

Forums are for sharing experience and ideas. Your idea is to not shoot for the hips because they can be swiveled and swished like a dancer. Mine is that the hips and center of mass/belt line are much larger and more stable targets than the head and would be a more sure hit. Your experience is based on dancing and mine on football and wrestling. I leave it to fellow readers to make their own choices.
 
As a city guy, I can attest for several facts regarding gang behavior:
-these guys thrive on easy targets, so take no chances if someone yells across a parking lot, "Hey come here, I wanna ask you a question!" or something similar... Social contract should be shredded when dealing with the likes of these BGs. They consider politeness weakness.
- they have BIG egos and are constantly trying to prove themselves to themselves and each other. If they cat call you or belittle you in public, youre better off walking away rather than mouthing off and finding yourself surrounded by them an hour later when theyre all waiting for you in a parking lot!
- For home defense, these guys are afraid of light and noise. A thousand dollars spent on motion sensor lights and even a cheap alarm system will decrease your chances of breakin by a thousand percent!
- finally, if a situation feels dangerous, trust your instinct and get out of it, even if it makes you feel like a coward. Walk fast, run if necessary.
-oh yeah... DONT pull your gun and expect them to run. A lot of them will charge you or fight back. Again, they want to prove themselves, and are mostly young and very very dumb!

Good luck!
 
Vest wearing gangmembers

Man wearing vest getting shot by full clip of 40cal ammo WILL sustain major blunt trauma.....Broken ribs are common which will stun someone nicely enough to get away.... Aim at the heart area of the vest because your follow up shots may likely go up a couple inches to where vest stops....
and under 10 ft occasionally a 40cal will penetrate class III vests
 
How often do criminals actually use vests though? It seems it's kind of like the "assault weapon" thing, where anti-gun folks point to however many so-called assault weapons are seized by police from criminals, they fail to note that the actual use of such weapons is actually very infrequent. Seems like criminals get them, either just to prove that they can, or in case of some unlikely scenario that it proves useful, but on the whole they're too big, heavy, and difficult to conceal to be of much use in the day-to-day life of a criminal. The same is likely true of vests. Owning a vest, much like an "assault weapon" perhaps sends a message, but seems less likely to be a practical consideration.
 
If my life were in danger, I would shoot first for center mass and if that did not achieve the desired result I would aim for a head shot, leg shot, hell any shot at all is going to have some effect on the perp. It's not a perfect world so things happen and you just deal with it and move on to your next best option.

Frankly I don't think most of the perps do or will anytime soon wear vests.

-Cheers
 
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