Bad guys in my area are starting to wear vests

I agree with a lot of what has been said here.
The only concealable handgun I can think of that would have a good chance against a vest is an FN Five Seven, its hard to fine ammo, the armored piercing type is illegal almost everywhere and did I mention the gun is expensive?

A shotgun would be best for your home. Whatever the load, at close range unless this guy is the Fridge he is going flat on his butt opening up his legs/groin area to attack.

Along that same point, for CCW/Handgun purposes I would say unless you are an expert shot I would aim for the chest so stun and the legs/lower torso. Unlike the movies, if you get shot in the leg you don't just limp around. If you hit the femoral artery the guy will bleed out in short order, if you hit a knee unless this guy is really drugged up I would imagine he goes down.
 
From what I saw on the TV coverage... both died of shots to the head.

One was self-inflicted.

The other was from a cop, who let the guy pass, then approached from behind.

The reenactment may not have been accurate, but that's how it was portrayed.
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The first North Hollywood bandit was killed when he was shot in the head by a police officer simultaneous to his own suicide shot to the head.

The second one bled to death after being shot multiple times in the legs. EMTs would not respond because there were reports of a third shooter still at large in the area. The reports turned out to be incorrect.
both wondering about the 500mag....while it probably wont penetrate a vest....we both figure it would send the person wearing it many ft. back from where originally struck.
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It may or may not penetrate the vest depending on the vest and the type of bullet, but regardless it won't knock the person back "many ft." unless it also knocks the shooter back "many ft.".
 
WOW !!!

Some of you guys are scary...I dont wanna mess with you. Nothing new in bad guys wearing vests. I've seen it quite a bit. The good thing is vests are expensive in the store... and quite a Bit more in the street. I wouldnt worry too much about someone continuing his attack after being shot while wearing a vest. The vests prevents penitration (sometimes). It still hurts like heck. Will knock the wind out of the average man.

I do think that bad guys wearing vests is a good argument against firing until slide-lock.

Glenn D
 
The reason for a Glock 19, and a spare G17 mag? = 32 rounds!

The kel tec 30 round .22, that is a .22 Magnum! Fill that puppy full of hollow points? It is like a lead hose pipe, good alternative.
 
The other advantage of shooting for the pelvis is that is near the center of gravity and will move less than the extremities such as the head. Any football player will know to watch the opponent's hips, not head, for where he is going. Easy to swing the head to and fro but the hips are only moving when the whole body moves.

I would imagine bangers would only wear their vests when they are intentionally going on a hit, not for hanging out or canvassing their territory.

Usually good tactic to take out leadership and top muscle guy first. From what I have seen they seem to like to keep you busy while one of them circles behind. Watch your six if confronted.

As far as the police, I think many of them see firearms as a small part of their overall job. They have a lot to keep on top of the laws and current policies, investigations, patrolling, paperwork/reports, community communication skills, non lethal tools, unarmed control techniques, etc. Many of them may never need to shoot their handgun, ut everyday they need to do most of the other things.
 
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a crotch shot will break some serious bones and the bad guy will go down like a sack of potatos (...)
spray the head area with the new kel tec 30 round .22 handgun (...)
Face or groin with the buck and 45lc to the head. Done deal (...)
It is like a lead hose pipe, good alternative
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I've gotta say, I'm a bit dismayed by the rather cavalier attitude about violence.

If I'm in a position to face down people wearing body armor, then I'm really not living right. Even if I were to somehow come into contact with someone so dressed, and I had to shoot, I doubt it would be something they'd want to happen twice.

I know two people who were shot while wearing body armor. Both survived, but both were badly injured. Had they been forced to continue fighting much longer, they would not have prevailed. The vest doesn't negate the kinetic energy, nor does it always stop the bullet. It may be the difference between life and death, but it's still going to hurt. Badly, from what I've heard.

It's not my responsibility to stop someone from committing nefarious acts in the future. I just want to get home. To that end, I only need to get them to slow or stop their aggression long enough for me to retreat. I don't need to go spraying 30 rounds of some armor-piercing load that's likely to cause severe risk to bystanders.

One last thought: if I am in a situation where I'm dealing with criminals who wear body armor, and I do have to shoot one of them, I'd be moving very far away the following day.
 
The second one bled to death after being shot multiple times in the legs. EMTs would not respond because there were reports of a third shooter still at large in the area. The reports turned out to be incorrect.
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Also, the EMTs were attending to some of the ten police officers the two had shot and, I believe, some civilians as well.
 
In case I worded it poorly...

... I wasn't denigrating the officer who made the head shot in the LA incident. Getting behind the armored up bad guy was good tactics, and probably his only option.

That incident also featured a sporting goods / gun shop owner breaking out some AR's and ammo for responding cops, didn't it?
 
No reason to knock A/P for trying to be considerate of the safety of others living near him. Seems like he has the right idea judging form the post above from EX SWAT man.
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^ The ex Swat team member, that Cornbush referred to, while offering professional advice, advocated neither head shots nor armor piercing ammo.
 
lol this is too much...

its funny reading people talk about head/pelvis/arm pit shots when they'd be more likely to pee themselves if someone came at them with a gun and a vest on..i love that we can be dirty harry thanks to a few keystrokes..:cool:
 
its funny reading people talk about head/pelvis/arm pit shots when they'd be more likely to pee themselves if someone came at them with a gun and a vest on..i love that we can be dirty harry thanks to a few keystrokes..
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My high school wrestling coach used to stress visualization, even dedicating time every practice for it. I figure between that plus writing about it should cover my bases;)

However un/likely civilians dealing with vested up bandits is, it's still a viable convo to have here.
 
Blunt force trauma

Interesting article:

"Although frequently referred to as “bulletproof vests,” in reality the vests do not stop all rounds fired. Of the 54 officers slain with firearms in 2004, 31 were wearing body armor. In four cases, bullets penetrated though the vest, and a fifth died of a nonpenetrating blunt force trauma to the chest. Even when the round is stopped, an officer can suffer an injury under the vest"


Injuries to Law Enforcement Officers Shot Wearing Personal Body Armor: A 30-Year Review

http://policechiefmagazine.org/maga...n=display_arch&article_id=1571&issue_id=82008
 
I used to subscribe to the "2 to the body, . . . 1 to the head" idea, and I have not thrown it out.

But as cornbush related:

The low abdomen-pelvis shot was used for a few reasons.
#1 A miss would not be as likely to strike another person, angled down to the floor.
#2 A hit to the pelvis or hip will usually slow down or outright stop the assailant, also major blood vessels...ie femoral artery.
#3 It's alot easier to hit the pelvic region than a head when it's moving or shooting at you.
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My routine now is 2 to COM, . . . then the sights go basically to belt buckle. I know on a moving target, I would not hit the belt buckle, . . . but I have a 10 inch circle as my target there, . . . much easier to hit than the 3 to 5 inch circle that is a fight stopper in the head.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
MLeake,

I'm about 99% certain that the second California bank robber in that shootout died from blood loss, not a head shot.

There's a picture of the guy lying on the ground, handcuffed, and he appears to be fully conscious.

His family later sued, claiming that he was denied medical care for over an hour after being apprehended and as such was allowed to bleed to death.

The lawsuit went to trial, but the jury hung, and the family later withdrew it.
 
Mike Irwin...

... you may be right.

I just seem to recall watching a TV show on the event, partly actual video, partly interviews, part reenactment, where an officer took cover, then slipped behind the BG on foot.

Problem there is two layers of possible error.

What I remember of the show, and how accurate the show was in the first place.
 
lol this is too much...

its funny reading people talk about head/pelvis/arm pit shots when they'd be more likely to pee themselves if someone came at them with a gun and a vest on..i love that we can be dirty harry thanks to a few keystrokes..
Click to expand...

Amen.

If you are worried about someone breaking into your house wearing a vest then you need to look at upgrading from a handgun to a rifle or shotgun. A rifle in a caliber .223 or larger or a shotgun loaded with a slug are going to be your best bets, with the rifle being the better of the choices.

In a concealed carry situation I would think that your best bet would be to make good hits on the threat, create distance between you and the threat, find cover or leave the area. No different then a situation with someone without a vest.
 
Posted here is the results of a NON-SCIENTIFIC penetration test a couple of guys and I performed earlier this past fall. NOTE: the Class 3A vest is proofed against high velocity .44Mag projectiles; there are NO trauma plates in this one - Class 3 DOES provide limited protection against rifles - due to plates installed.

Handguns vs Police issue Ballistic Vest
Recently, a member of our gun club, who is a County District Attorney Office Detective (also a retired LEO) brought in a "retired" class 3A ballistic vest used by his department as well as other dept.s in the Lehigh Valley. He wanted to run an informal test for his and his fellow officers curiosity - since they were wearing these vests, he wanted to know how effective the vests are.
We fired a variety of handgun ammo at the vest, hung on a backer from a range of approx. 20 FEET. The results were both not-so surprising but also surprising. Here's what we found (standard was to fire three rounds of each type from the same distance (20'):

.38SPL +P, .357 Mag. (125, 158 gr - FMJ and hollow point), 9x19 mm (124, 148 gr. FMJ and hollow point), .44 MAG (240 and 280 FMJ), .45 ACP (165 HP, 185 HP, 200 JHP, 230 FMJ) - all failed to penetrate. Most of the FMJ above .38 +P, showed some deformation of the projectiles when recovered. All of the HPs expanded to some degree.

Next up: My CZ 52 7.62x25mm (85 gr. S&B) - penetrated both sides of vest - clean holes - projectiles not recovered. Then we tried some ammo made by a Regional Small commercial reloader's HOT SD rounds, 85 gr. jacketed hollow points - marked "For CZ52 ONLY - too hot for TOKAREV" - penetrated about 1/2 of layers and flattened out with curled lips on same level as base of bullet.
My SIG PRO 2340 w/ .357 SIG 140 gr. S&B TCFMJ - individual rounds didn't penetrate but flattened out by about 3/4 of length - jackets split - 2 of three rounds knocked the vest off of the stand - very heavy impact. He then asked me to do some rapid fire hitting in nearly same spot. I loaded five rounds and fired them rapidly into about a 2" group - first three rounds were stopped and messed up the Kevlar pretty badly - next two rounds worked through but were stopped by back panel. Then fired five more spreading the impacts out in a line about 4" long - all were stopped but vest flapped violently. Several of the projectiles travelled from POI at upper left all the way to the bottom hem of the vest - tearing up material as they went.
Next, We tried firing a bolt action .22lr loaded with CCI STINGERS - no penetration but the recovered projectiles flattened out and looked like bingo markers.
Last up: a Savage M9317 firing .17 HMRF .17 gr Hornady AccuTip (polymer) rounds - three rounds - three penetrations of front panel - all three disintegrated on back panel, that is - left a lead smudge about 3" in diameter.

In the near future, we're going to try some shotgun rounds: 12 ga buck and slugs, 2 3/4 and 3 1/2" cartridges.
What I learned: I wouldn't want to be HIT by any of those rounds, ballistic vest or not.
Jim

p.s. This info is posted on other threads - it is my personal work, no copyright infringement
 
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