Automatic weapon
- Thread starter Firepower!
- Start date
While its to be expected the larger calibers will have a stronger recoil impulse, the technique is still the same regardless, and the results will be similar.
If you try to "hold" the gun on target, your results will not be very good, regardless of caliber, but they will only get worse as the caliber goes up. If you relax, and dont try to control the gun, but instead, go with it and ride it, the results will be very similar. The trick is not to try to physically hold the gun on target, but to just keep moving it back towards center, like you would a strong hose. Its a lot easier to show than it is to type.
When some tells you that the gun continues up and to the left or right, depending on their strong hand, and off the target, thats a good indication they dont understand how to shoot the gun. At a reasonable range, you should be able to dump the mag pretty much COM with one pull of the trigger.
BoulderTroll
Inactive
Firepower, first you wrote this:
Then you wrote this:
What the heck??? I'd submit that having holes in your walls from using a shotgun is a "cost" that you shouldn't be factoring in, if you were to follow your own advice.
Call me crazy, but if I have multiple attackers inside my house and need to use a shotgun, subgun, etc. to defend my home...I don't give a rat's behind what my walls will look like afterwards. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if multiple bad guys are breaking into my home then I really must live in a ****hole, third-world of not, as you objected to.
As for the original question, I voted "no". I've carried and trained with an MP5 at work for about 5 years before switching to an M4. The MP5 certainly has great attributes but I don't think of it as the wonder-gun that some of you do. I admit it is far easier for most people to use than a shotgun (IME). From what I've seen an MP5 is probably the easiest weapon to teach a new shooter to use. They do have shortcomings, however. It doesn't penetrate body armor (which is becoming increasingly common), and 9mm, even multiple 9mm's, are not the best round in the world as far as instant incapacitation.
Also, an MP5 SD is not a small weapon IMHO. I'm sure your house is bigger than mine but in my apartment, with narrow walls and stairwells, a pistol would be a much handier option. Besides, I come from the mind-set that I'm accountable for every round I put downrange. Forget about legal consequences and property damage...I have a family and every shot that misses the bad guy has a chance of hitting a loved one.
That said, my personally owned home defense gun is my Colt lower with a Noveske N4 14.5" upper. It is semi-auto only but even if it were FA I'd only use it on semi. It has less over-penetration than a pistol or shotgun, although, like I said, in my size apartment there would be a strong argument to use a pistol instead.
In closing I'd just add that I hope you were joking. If you really are concerned about the condition of your walls after the gunfight, then I am doubtful if you are even qualified to own a weapon let alone talk about its use.
Then you wrote this:
What the heck??? I'd submit that having holes in your walls from using a shotgun is a "cost" that you shouldn't be factoring in, if you were to follow your own advice.
Call me crazy, but if I have multiple attackers inside my house and need to use a shotgun, subgun, etc. to defend my home...I don't give a rat's behind what my walls will look like afterwards. In fact I'd go so far as to say that if multiple bad guys are breaking into my home then I really must live in a ****hole, third-world of not, as you objected to.
As for the original question, I voted "no". I've carried and trained with an MP5 at work for about 5 years before switching to an M4. The MP5 certainly has great attributes but I don't think of it as the wonder-gun that some of you do. I admit it is far easier for most people to use than a shotgun (IME). From what I've seen an MP5 is probably the easiest weapon to teach a new shooter to use. They do have shortcomings, however. It doesn't penetrate body armor (which is becoming increasingly common), and 9mm, even multiple 9mm's, are not the best round in the world as far as instant incapacitation.
Also, an MP5 SD is not a small weapon IMHO. I'm sure your house is bigger than mine but in my apartment, with narrow walls and stairwells, a pistol would be a much handier option. Besides, I come from the mind-set that I'm accountable for every round I put downrange. Forget about legal consequences and property damage...I have a family and every shot that misses the bad guy has a chance of hitting a loved one.
That said, my personally owned home defense gun is my Colt lower with a Noveske N4 14.5" upper. It is semi-auto only but even if it were FA I'd only use it on semi. It has less over-penetration than a pistol or shotgun, although, like I said, in my size apartment there would be a strong argument to use a pistol instead.
In closing I'd just add that I hope you were joking. If you really are concerned about the condition of your walls after the gunfight, then I am doubtful if you are even qualified to own a weapon let alone talk about its use.
Firepower!
New member
no b troll i am not qualified to own one. Why dont you come and try taking them away...it would really be funny.
The posts you quoted were from different context.
The posts you quoted were from different context.
BoulderTroll
Inactive
John, I'm not a Navy SEAL, and I don't play one on TV either, but from what I've heard they "chose" the P226, MP5, M4, M2HB, M60E3, Benelli, S&W 340PD, etc. In other words I think that you may be misleading by making it sound like they "chose" the MP5 over the M4, which they did not.
As for SWAT, I don't play a SWAT cop on TV either but in real life I have been one for a few years.
I'd strongly disagree that SWAT teams should have "stuck with" the MP5. The move to the AR15 type weapons came about as a result of lessons learned (primarily from places like the North Hollywood BofA). Some people may think of it as a kneejerk reaction to an isolated and widely publicized incident, but I disagree. As I said in my previous post, body armor is unfortunately becoming an increasingly common item in the hands of bad guys. As for the M4's accuracy being questionable, I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about...
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BoulderTroll
Inactive
Your profile says you're an attorney. You may be but it certainly doesn't sound like it. Your replies to people's comments are immature and inflamatory. I'm new to this forum but I'll be sure to avoid your posts from here on out.
bigrebnc1861
New member
I like that new military shotgun. I doubt that it will ever be made for the civiliam market.
Firepower!
New member
Are you talking about AA12? It is an awesome contraption and recoil is not bad at all.
...b troll, yes please avoid my posts if their inflamatory nature upset you. It is needless to comment on whose post was inflamatory and a direct insult.
...b troll, yes please avoid my posts if their inflamatory nature upset you. It is needless to comment on whose post was inflamatory and a direct insult.
BoulderTroll
Inactive
HK, I'll give you that the M4 is a longer weapon, but that's not an entirely fair comparison. For CQB type stuff I personally use the M4 with the stock completely collapsed. The MP5's I've used did not have collapsing stocks and even if they did, I wouldn't use an MP5 with the stock collapsed.
The MP5SD I trained with also had a flashlight, dual clamped magazines and an EOTech on a claw mount, so that may have added to my opinion of it's size. lol
I agree that the M4 is a bit on the large size for inside the home use, but the good balistic qualities and lack of overpenetration outweigh the disadvantages for me. The MP5 lacks in both those areas IMHO.
As a side note, I attended a course a few months back where the staff for the most part were huge fans of the MP5, not to mention the fact that my department armorers drink the HK cool-aid. If all this hasn't convinced me that the MP5 is better than the M4 I probably am a hopeless case.
The MP5SD I trained with also had a flashlight, dual clamped magazines and an EOTech on a claw mount, so that may have added to my opinion of it's size. lol
I agree that the M4 is a bit on the large size for inside the home use, but the good balistic qualities and lack of overpenetration outweigh the disadvantages for me. The MP5 lacks in both those areas IMHO.
As a side note, I attended a course a few months back where the staff for the most part were huge fans of the MP5, not to mention the fact that my department armorers drink the HK cool-aid. If all this hasn't convinced me that the MP5 is better than the M4 I probably am a hopeless case.
Ok, I'll give you that. 
I use both with a Blackhawk Chalker single-point sling and the stock collapsed. If not for over-penetration concerns, I would prefer the M4. I just don't think my neighbors would appreciate it. I have lots of very large glass windows, so any misses will be entering my neighbors houses.
I use both with a Blackhawk Chalker single-point sling and the stock collapsed. If not for over-penetration concerns, I would prefer the M4. I just don't think my neighbors would appreciate it. I have lots of very large glass windows, so any misses will be entering my neighbors houses.
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Do you have any first hand experience, or are you just forming your opinion based on the internet and a 1990 movie starring Michael Biehn and Charlie Sheen?
M4 accuracy questionable? Maybe in your hands. Jumps around more on full-auto? The MP5 was made for the specific application for which it is most often used. Not too many weapons systems stack up well against it for that specific application. Lots of them out perform it at everything else though. It's a sexy weapon, for sure, but it's not good for much of anything other than the very narrow application that it is most often used by professionals for.
I think the MP5 is a great close quarters weapon which would do the trick for self-defense in the home. I have found rifle calibers to kick more and there is a certain bulkiness associated with each rifle that slows me down from aquiring a good site.
I also think the MP5 is a more reliable weapon then the M16/M4 family. I have seen MP5 rental weapons that were about 30 years old and still fired somewhat accurately. There was this one rental MP5 I saw at a range in Vegas that looked very beaten up, but its accuracy and reliability seemed to hold its own. Could you take an M16 from the 70s, a beaten up well used M16 from the 70s, and still be as accurate or reliable?
If I was defending myself from a distance, then of course, I would want the G36. (Nope, I am not a fan of either the M4 or the M16 as I have revealed in other threads.) I do have experience with the M16 and thats why I dont own one. I dont want to own one. Plenty of other alternatives out there that are far superior.
One day law enforcement will figure out that the AR15 style weapons cant hold a candle to the G36 family.
I also think the MP5 is a more reliable weapon then the M16/M4 family. I have seen MP5 rental weapons that were about 30 years old and still fired somewhat accurately. There was this one rental MP5 I saw at a range in Vegas that looked very beaten up, but its accuracy and reliability seemed to hold its own. Could you take an M16 from the 70s, a beaten up well used M16 from the 70s, and still be as accurate or reliable?
If I was defending myself from a distance, then of course, I would want the G36. (Nope, I am not a fan of either the M4 or the M16 as I have revealed in other threads.) I do have experience with the M16 and thats why I dont own one. I dont want to own one. Plenty of other alternatives out there that are far superior.
One day law enforcement will figure out that the AR15 style weapons cant hold a candle to the G36 family.
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Para Bellum
New member
I can shoot more accurately faster with semi-auto.
Police all over Europe routinely patrol the streets with sub-guns and rifles. Conversely, crime in Europe is not at the same high levels as here in the United States.
Why do European societies embrace police with automatic weapons while US police shy away?
I would feel more comfortable seeing city cops patrolling the streets with an MP5 or similiar automatic weapon. I want to feel as if the common officer has the weapons to take on a wide variety of threats. I dont feel thats possible with officers who are armed with just a bunch of Glocks.
There is no question in my mind. Airport and city police should have some patrols that mainly carry an automatic assault rifle.
Here are photos of two police officers. Which one looks more prepared to deal with a threat?
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/13/heathrow14806_narrowweb__300x369,0.jpg
http://buddydon.blogspot.com/nypd_in_times_square.jpg
The two NYPD officers would be quickly outmatched by a man armed with an assault rifle.
The British officer would at least be able to return fire more accurately and greater volume over a distance.
Why do European societies embrace police with automatic weapons while US police shy away?
I would feel more comfortable seeing city cops patrolling the streets with an MP5 or similiar automatic weapon. I want to feel as if the common officer has the weapons to take on a wide variety of threats. I dont feel thats possible with officers who are armed with just a bunch of Glocks.
There is no question in my mind. Airport and city police should have some patrols that mainly carry an automatic assault rifle.
Here are photos of two police officers. Which one looks more prepared to deal with a threat?
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/13/heathrow14806_narrowweb__300x369,0.jpg
http://buddydon.blogspot.com/nypd_in_times_square.jpg
The two NYPD officers would be quickly outmatched by a man armed with an assault rifle.
The British officer would at least be able to return fire more accurately and greater volume over a distance.
devildog66
New member
The OP mentioned that cost and law are not considerations. That said, a full auto is about the most intimidating (individual) weapon one could ever face. 
Note the fair fight reference.
Note the fair fight reference.
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Firepower!
New member
Sorry but the thread is not about what kind of weapons cops should have or have weapons at all or how they should train. For that we can have a bew thread.
Please stay focused on op. Thank you.
Please stay focused on op. Thank you.