ATF: Reclassification of M855/SS109 ammo as armor-piercing

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The last election had nothing to do with gun rights, or at least very little. It was a backlash over healthcare, immigration, and just Obama in general. We got lucky in that most of the people who got elected are supportive of gun rights. People just got fed up with voting in lackeys for the current administration. Now we have to sit back and see what happens next.
 
NJgunowner said:
The last election had nothing to do with gun rights, or at least very little. It was a backlash over healthcare, immigration, and just Obama in general.
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I pretty much agree with you, except right at the end. I think the mid-terms were a repudiation of Obama and everything he stands for, but I don't think that gun rights had little to do with it.

Having spent far more time than I should on Internet forums over the past several years, I have observed that a large preponderance of folks on the right side of the political spectrum tend to be one-issue voters. They could be looking at a Republican who is in lock step with their views on taxes, jobs, immigration, defense, gun rights ... but if he/she isn't 110% anti-abortion, they won't vote for that candidate. Others will look at the same candidate and the same list of issues, and the only criterion that matters will be immigration. Or taxes. Or jobs. Or removing "God" from the Pledge of Allegiance.

It just so happened that the various criteria of a majority of one-issue voters led to voting out many of the legislators who actively or tacitly supported Obama and his policies. I certainly don't discount the reality that gun rights was hardly the only factor, but it was IMHO a major factor.
 
Before anybody starts handing out pats on the back because he was

"Caught trying to implement an unconstitutional ban & so punished in some way for that act", let me play devil's advocate.

He probably got the rollicking of a lifetime for letting the cat out of the bag too early, not because of any constitutional irregularity. Remember the phrase "Publishing Error"?:rolleyes:
 
You really think there's more anti's willing to agitate to get 5.56 ammo banned than gun owners who shoot the round (or wish it protected regardless)? Only one of those two has an ox to gore, and there's an increasing body of evidence the anti's that actually vocalize their wishes (as opposed to passively agreeing to statistics or proposals placed in front of them) are almost entirely astro-turf and composed of far fewer numbers than their public footprint has been distorted to represent.

Gun websites (even political ones) consistently get orders of magnitude more hits than anti-gun sites. 300,000 people crowed about an utterly esoteric topic using arguments infinitely more evolved than any "guns are bad" trope we've yet encountered.

"Unfortunately, even many of the Republicans we elected in hopes of stopping the anti-gunners don't seem to understand why it was that they prevailed in the last election."
They're just hoping we support will them long enough for them to no longer require us. History has shown that no national party has ever seen American gun owners as a useful element in their utopian vision of the State.

TCB
 
There's more than enough gun owners that will just follow whatever law is passed.

Lots of gun owners don't think people need military type stuff.

Many gun owners think universal background checks and magazine limits make sense.

There's enough people that don't own guns and don't care either way....safety sounds ok to them


There's plenty of people that want guns banned.

Relatively few people that own ARs that actually pay attention to current events
 
B.Todd Jones is gone at months end, as mentioned by other posters, I wonder why. Who knows. Possibly, the multiple hundred thousand objections to M855 ban, as proposed, had something to do with his departure, we can guess, but that is likely all it amounts to, guessing. Who or what comes next remains to be seen, and then there would be the necessary Senate confirmation of a replacement. Input from constituents might effect that. It appears that things might get "interesting", also spelled complicated, stay tuned in.
 
rickyrick in post 306 has a lot to say, unfortunately starting with the first three points, he is all to likely correct.These people can't see past the end of their noses, a sad situation,for they seemingly don't realize that it's not simply military looking guns that are at risk, it's ALL GUNS.

As for the others mentioned, might the following apply? Forgive them for they know not what they do?
 
There's more than enough gun owners that will just follow whatever law is passed.

Lots of gun owners don't think people need military type stuff.

Many gun owners think universal background checks and magazine limits make sense.

There's enough people that don't own guns and don't care either way....safety sounds ok to them
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Ironically, half the time I run into those guys, they don't have the faintest idea what existing gun laws are and routinely violate the existing gun laws out of ignorance.

Like the guy who gifted his daughter in California a normal capacity semi-auto handgun for protection so she could "protect herself" (without using an FFL) but had voted for Obama and thought universal background checks were just dandy.

When I pointed out to him that this was illegal under Federal law already and even more illegal under background checks, his attitude was basically "They aren't going to prosecute me. That is just for those people (wink-wink)."

In that regard, they are no different from David Gregory, who took a forbidden 30rd clip on a news show in D.C. AFTER he was told that was illegal. Or MAIG, with their fake NY gun shop full of weapons you can't even possess in NY and no FFL. AndI guess they're right - THEY can violate gun laws and not get prosecuted for it.
 
On another note, Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY), who is sponsoring an ammo-ban bill in the House says he will meet with the new acting director of ATF and encourage him to go forward with the ban.
 
Re post 309, Dave Gregory's employers swing that big hammer, ergo no prosecution for violation of the law, such as would likely have brought the jailing of John and or Jane Every Person. Life is cruel.It's also simple in some respects,note I said simple not fair or just or anything of the sort.

As for the well meaning gentleman in California, if you listen, you could likely hear his cries of protest when he was dragged away in chains, having violated, without intent of doing harm to anyone, the scared, but possibly utterly stupid law. It would, 0f course, also depend on who was,in his case, the enforcer of the law. As for his claim that the law only applied to"those" people, he might be surprised at the amount of defensive efforts that were available, for free, to "those" people, support and defense unlikely available to him.
 
B.Todd Jones is gone at months end, as mentioned by other posters, I wonder why.
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He got a high position with the NFL.

I really doubt the M855 issue had anything to do with it, since it generally takes a long time to land such a job
 
You really think there's more anti's willing to agitate to get 5.56 ammo banned than gun owners who shoot the round (or wish it protected regardless)?
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Yes, they outnumber the 556 shooters

I know plenty of hunters who don't like AR type rifles, and have little use for small calibers

Shooters as a whole are a minority, and the AR lovers are a subset to that
 
I don't even know where to start. First, the AR15 has been the most popular selling rifle, if not firearm, for going on a decade now. They are everywhere. There are over 3 dozen manufacturers of just AR15s - that isn't the type of situation you see in a "subset" of a small market.

Second, antis are actually relatively small in number. They are consistently out-organized and out-numbered in any kind of grass-roots comparison. The only way you could argue that antis outnumbered 2A advocates is if you only compared the committed, activist 2A types against everyone who kinda sorta was OK with gun control in some form.

The people who are willing to agitate to ban 5.56 ammo in no way, shape or form outnumber 5.56 shooters. We just had about as clear of a test as you could wish for to measure that and it wasn't even close - even organizations whose whole raison d'etre was gun control couldn't be bothered to file a comment with ATF. And over 300,000 gun owners didn't just sit on their butt; but took it upon themselves to act individually and send in comments.
 
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If you sit in a fishbowl, you think everyone in the world is just like you.

I don't buy the 5.56 shooters outnumber the antis, or moreover people who don't have a dog in the fight.

I'd speculate that most ARs just sit in a closet somewhere collecting dust... A few get out to do some road sign shooting..... Gun ownership doesn't equate to active participant... There's just not many opportunities to shoot out there
 
Snyper writes/quotes, in post 312

Quote:
B.Todd Jones is gone at months end, as mentioned by other posters, I wonder why.

He got a high position with the NFL.
________________________________________________________________

Did he really, and if so,is the change from BATFE to NFL, money and perks aside, a promotion or a demotion?
 
rickyrick said:
I don't buy the 5.56 shooters outnumber the antis, or moreover people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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There were $1.5 billion in ammo sales (BEFORE Newtown) and 10 billion rounds of ammo sold annually. In the early part of 2013 (major gun control panic), Luckygunner reported that their revenues were 21.4% 9mm and 15.7% .223/5.56 (making those the top two calibers they sold).

Extrapolating, that is 1.57 BILLION rounds of .223/5.56 ammo a year - that is around half a billion dollars at $0.30 per round which is probably on the low side). If those were advocacy expenditures instead of purchases, in one year, 5.56 shooters outspent every single gun group, pro and anti, for the last decade.

Moms Demand Action has claimed 130,000 members. The Brady Campaign claimed 600,000 members. Americans for Responsible Solutions doesn't even mention their membership numbers, though they have millions to spend on gun control. Even assuming no overlapping membership, the number of people who are actually committed to gun control and willing to agitate over 5.56 ammo are pretty few in comparison to shooters.

Both sides, however, are way outnumbered by the casual, uninterested voter who doesn't really know or care much about the subject (some of whom own guns even).

alan said:
Did he really, and if so,is the change from BATFE to NFL, money and perks aside, a promotion or a demotion?
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One of the former ATF agents on the ATF Whistleblower website said before Jones was even approved by the Senate that he had no commitment to the job and would bail as soon as Eric Holder wasn't around to protect him. I don't know if that is a fair assessment; but it sure seems to fit the circumstances.

More worrying to me is the NFL seems to be willing to throw "gimme jobs" to Administration insiders who for one reason or another, can no longer remain on the public payroll.
 
Both sides, however, are way outnumbered by the casual, uninterested voter who doesn't really know or care much about the subject (some of whom own guns even).
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That's probably more accurate way of saying than I did
 
Quote:
Both sides, however, are way outnumbered by the casual, uninterested voter who doesn't really know or care much about the subject (some of whom own guns even).
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Those are the ones who will side with the anti's on most issues, and especially issues related to "assault rifles"

Trying to determine the number of "5.56 shooters" by sales figures is silly, since prices skyrocketed, and many people buy more than one.
 
NJgunowner wrote:

The last election had nothing to do with gun rights, or at least very little. It was a backlash over healthcare, immigration, and just Obama in general. We got lucky in that most of the people who got elected are supportive of gun rights. People just got fed up with voting in lackeys for the current administration. Now we have to sit back and see what happens next.
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You might be correct, but I'm curious as to the following. On what do you base this conclusion?

Alan
 
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