I'd like to go back to the Contempt of Congress citation of Holder that DoJ has refused to act upon. I'm curious whether it would be possible for an application for mandamus to be filed to force DoJ to prosecute this indictment? If so, would it have to be the House committee that files or could a third party file?
ATF Project Gunrunner
- Thread starter Al Norris
- Start date
In March, 2013 the judge ordered mediation. This Fast and Furious mediation could drag on for many months or even years.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/under...tion-in-fast-and-furious-contempt-159615.html
http://www.politico.com/blogs/under...tion-in-fast-and-furious-contempt-159615.html
I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong here, with respect to the following.
That having been said, from where I sit, I doubt that ANY branch of government can be relied on to ever get to the bottom of the criminal fiasco that was Operation Fast and Furious, certainly no part of government under the present administration.
When I mention "getting to the bottom" I refer to actually taking a cold, hard look at those who dreamed up and operated this scheme, and acting to "bring to justice" those at fault, via prosecution. It won't happen, if for no other reason than the number of "rice bowls" involved, all of which would be upset.
For whatever it might be worth, that is my take on this sad affair, and here I make mention of just one of the games being played.
That having been said, from where I sit, I doubt that ANY branch of government can be relied on to ever get to the bottom of the criminal fiasco that was Operation Fast and Furious, certainly no part of government under the present administration.
When I mention "getting to the bottom" I refer to actually taking a cold, hard look at those who dreamed up and operated this scheme, and acting to "bring to justice" those at fault, via prosecution. It won't happen, if for no other reason than the number of "rice bowls" involved, all of which would be upset.
For whatever it might be worth, that is my take on this sad affair, and here I make mention of just one of the games being played.
We know who ginned up and ran Fast and Furious. Grassley and Issa tried to prove that Holder knew of and blessed the deal: They failed.
IMO: Issa was doing a very thorough investigation of Fast and Furious. The contempt citation ended the investigation. Holder played a high stakes game of chicken and won.
Issa was an Army student at EOD school while i was an Army instructor there in 70-72. I do not remember him.
IMO: Issa was doing a very thorough investigation of Fast and Furious. The contempt citation ended the investigation. Holder played a high stakes game of chicken and won.
Issa was an Army student at EOD school while i was an Army instructor there in 70-72. I do not remember him.
They failed because Holder illegally refused to provide the documents under subpoena, not because Holder had no involvement in F&F. Since these documents are crucial to proving Holder & potential White House involvement in and direction of F&F, what else was the House to do? Keep asking politely?
You speak of it as if it's were a game. This is an important separation of powers and oversight issue and speaking of it as a simple game of bluff is disingenuous and false. You can argue the tactics of the committee and the House all you want, but at the end of the day you have the AG of the United States breaking laws and laughing in the face of the citizens of the United States.
From Holder's point of view it was a game, simple as that.
Yep, it is an important separation of powers issue, no doubt about that.
Grassley and Issa lost this one when they failed to go after the BATFE. The big losers are the citizens of Mexico, who were duped and betrayed by the Phoenix office of the BATFE, the US prosecutor for AZ and those up the food chain who blessed the operation.
At this late date Grassley and Issa could appeal that judge's decision. The fact that they have not indicates a congressional disinterest in F&F. F&F is dead in the water.
They had 2 options: they could have arrested in themselves (the Sgt at Arms, accompanied by the Capitol Police) and thrown him in jail for civil contempt. Or they could have impeached him. The jail thing was probably the better option because the Senate democrats would not have upheld an impeachment. But of course instead they did nothing, because this was all just for show.
In case you missed it, CBS reporter Sharyl Attkinsson has done a follow-up story on Fast and Furious. More guns trafficked with the permission of ATF have turned up at crime scenes in Mexico:
The story doesn't say whether there were any homicides involved. With the number of guns allowed to go South, I'm betting F&F guns will be showing up at crime scenes for a long time.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57598487/more-fast-and-furious-guns-surface-at-crimes-in-mexico/
The story doesn't say whether there were any homicides involved. With the number of guns allowed to go South, I'm betting F&F guns will be showing up at crime scenes for a long time.
Concerning recent posts on F & F, and the fiasco's/ongoing dog and pony show that has followed, anyone interested might view my post # 2764. While others are likely better writers than I, the referenced post is, I submit, worth the brief moment required to read it.
In summation, might I add the following. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are, in my view, worth the matches it would take to set them alight, regarding the administration antics they have acquiesced to respecting the criminal fiasco that was and remains this thing called Operation Fast & Furious.
Lest I forget, media is culpable, blazingly so, for having, in general, soft-peddled, actually ignored Operation Fast & Furious, and the painfully obvious role of the Obama Administration therein. Rather than covering itself in glory, it has wallowed in administration produced you know what, to it's everlasting detriment, this last conclusion being my own, as I cannot speak for others. Think on this last for a moment. Had media spilled 1/10 the ink, despoiled an equivalent amount of newsprint, burned the amount of electricity need to properly broadcast questions, as they have done, and continue to do over the problems caused by "assault weapons", which aren't "assault weapons", I suspect that we would, long since, have gotten to the bottom of this screw-up, having seen appropriate punishment of those who merit such treatment. Alas, we have seen nothing of the sort, to the everlasting shame of media.
In summation, might I add the following. Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are, in my view, worth the matches it would take to set them alight, regarding the administration antics they have acquiesced to respecting the criminal fiasco that was and remains this thing called Operation Fast & Furious.
Lest I forget, media is culpable, blazingly so, for having, in general, soft-peddled, actually ignored Operation Fast & Furious, and the painfully obvious role of the Obama Administration therein. Rather than covering itself in glory, it has wallowed in administration produced you know what, to it's everlasting detriment, this last conclusion being my own, as I cannot speak for others. Think on this last for a moment. Had media spilled 1/10 the ink, despoiled an equivalent amount of newsprint, burned the amount of electricity need to properly broadcast questions, as they have done, and continue to do over the problems caused by "assault weapons", which aren't "assault weapons", I suspect that we would, long since, have gotten to the bottom of this screw-up, having seen appropriate punishment of those who merit such treatment. Alas, we have seen nothing of the sort, to the everlasting shame of media.
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i agree.
Unlike many, i'm not ready to blame the media for the failure of the investigation into Fast and Furious. Most of the people who blame CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN for their failure to cover Operation Fast and Furious steadfastly refuse to watch those networks and, therefore, have no idea what those networks cover. Fast and Furious was reported on regularily by all the major networks. The Fast and Furious story came to light because of an CBS reporter, Sharyl Attkisson.
One of the things that killed the investigation into F&F was the failure to demand the overhaul of the BATFE.
For months i read everything that came out of Issa's committee. Few, if any, of those reports ever mentioned Operation Wide Receiver. Wide Receiver was the pilot program for Fast and Furious. Contrary to popular belief, few of the Wide Receiver guns were tracked by the Mexicans or anyone else. At least 13 Wide Receiver guns were recovered at Mexican crime scenes.
See:
Email from Laura Gwinn, Criminal Division, Department of Justice, to Kevin
Carwile, Criminal Division, Department of Justice (Mar. 16, 2010).
The whole truth about Operation Fast and Furious will probably never be known. The House Oversight Committee don't have the stomach for it.
Many years ago i was the commander of a US Army EOD unit. i had my runin with a BATF SAC. The scurrilous cretin wanted me to tell a federal judge that i disposed of hundreds of thousands of small arms rounds confiscated illegally by the BATFE. The judge had ordered the ammunition returned to its owner and the BATF could not produce it.
i want that agency reformed.
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thallub,
1). Atkisson is with CBS, not ABC;
2). Until Atkisson's report, no major network or traditional news outlet had covered it, period. I tried to get the Atlanta Journal Constitution to look into it, but my emails to the editor went unanswered. After Atkisson's report, other networks finally started "covering" F&F, primarily by saying it was a continuation of the Bush administration's "Wide Receiver," which was false.
Your last post is simply inaccurate.
1). Atkisson is with CBS, not ABC;
2). Until Atkisson's report, no major network or traditional news outlet had covered it, period. I tried to get the Atlanta Journal Constitution to look into it, but my emails to the editor went unanswered. After Atkisson's report, other networks finally started "covering" F&F, primarily by saying it was a continuation of the Bush administration's "Wide Receiver," which was false.
Your last post is simply inaccurate.
The SAC wanted me to write a letter to the judge stating that i had destroyed nearly 500,000 rounds of ammunition seized illegally from a medical doctor. Yes, i wrote a letter to the judge; through Army channels. That may have entered into the judges decision to jail BATFE agents from that office for contempt of court.
There was a BATF internal investigation. i immediately rattled the investigator by accusing him of trying to cover up the entire affair. Turns out he was a decent guy who was only interested in the truth. The man told me the entire sorry story. Not only was the ammo missing, some of the 200 seized guns could not be accuounted for.
Wide Receiver had cooperation and coordination with Mexican authorities: RFID devices in walked guns; agents assigned to monitor both sides of the border; and tracking aircraft. The operation was cancelled after approximately 200 guns were lost from the tracking grid.
F&F operations had none of the above, and were designed to let thousands of guns walk without tracking capability.
Anybody who equates the two has not done his homework...
F&F operations had none of the above, and were designed to let thousands of guns walk without tracking capability.
Anybody who equates the two has not done his homework...
So what? Wide Receiver was shut down as not only ineffective but actively dangerous by the previous administration when it realized that firearms could not be traced once they left this country, even with the active assistance of Mexican authorities.
In F&F, no attempt was even made to trace the firearms. The intent was clearly just to flood Mexico with firearms of American origin and see what chaos could be generated.
You seem to think that somehow low-level agents and an SAIC pulled this off without any sort of DOJ oversight. The facts clearly indicate otherwise.
thallub closed a post as follows:
"i want that agency reformed."
Re that expressed desire, the following comes to my mind, other things might come to the minds of others:
1. That agency (BATFE) is far beyond "reform", partly because, as you noted, "oversight committees lack the stomach".
2. Additionally, empires have been built, they would, of needs, be destroyed.
3. A large number of "rice bowls" would need to be shaken, profoundly shaken.
4. Once again, one notes the lack of congressional stomach or integrity, whichever you might want to reference.
5. Perhaps a bit off point, but appropriate I think. Have you noticed the seemingly out of control growth of the TSA?
"i want that agency reformed."
Re that expressed desire, the following comes to my mind, other things might come to the minds of others:
1. That agency (BATFE) is far beyond "reform", partly because, as you noted, "oversight committees lack the stomach".
2. Additionally, empires have been built, they would, of needs, be destroyed.
3. A large number of "rice bowls" would need to be shaken, profoundly shaken.
4. Once again, one notes the lack of congressional stomach or integrity, whichever you might want to reference.
5. Perhaps a bit off point, but appropriate I think. Have you noticed the seemingly out of control growth of the TSA?
This is a popular political myth. Wide Receiver guns were found at crime scenes in Mexico.
According to the guy who sold most of the Wide Receiver guns:
http://www.examiner.com/article/truth-about-operation-wide-receiver-important-to-determine
More:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/the-guns-that-got-away-11172011.html
The first congressional priority should have been the the overhaul of the BATFE. It's not like the BATFE suddenly became a broken agency the day the current president came into office.
http://www.examiner.com/article/truth-about-operation-wide-receiver-important-to-determine
The F&F investigation failed to resonate with the vast majority of US citizens, who were busy eking out a living and/or those who saw the investigation as an election year extravaganza when the investigators refused to investigate all the gun walking schemes or conduct a comprehensive reform the BATFE.
i read everything that came from Issa's committee, most of it several times. Believing that the political truth is usually somewhere in the middle, i also read the minority report.
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