Are laser grips a must? crimson sale,

I guess that one advantage of the laser sight that replaces the rear sight, eh? Shallow enough angle that it should be visible at any reasonable distance.

Anyway, I should have funny getting it set up... It's a reason to shoot stuff, regardless. ;)
 
k, I'm trying to get a handle on this... doesn't this imply that either your sights or your laser are not correct?
If sights are "6 o'clock" hold and the laser is set to "Point of Impact" should not the laser dot appear to be sitting on top of your sight picture, at least at whatever distance you're sighted in for?
I suppose you could say the sights are not correct, but it's probably better to say that I have to cover the target with the (minimal) front sight. With a +P 158gr reload, they consistently hit 6 o'clock when I take a 6 o'clock hold.

I can't take a traditional "lollypop hold" with either of my snubs as I can with my 1911, .22s or my .44
 
Interesting. I'm not sure I understand how a laser could be slower than sights. I'm not saying it isn't, but I don't understand it. Slower than pure point shooting, I get that. Slower than sights is hard to imagine.

It's kind of like using too high a magnification on a scope.

You know, I think I have heard that somewhere before. ;)

Laser grips are NOT a must. Some people benefit from them. Some people end up being much slower with them because they end up watching the dot more than watching what is going on or because they are waiting for the dot to settle (like rifle shooters with too much magnification in their scopes).

The first problem I called "watching" the dot, some say "chasing" the dot, Boats said "hunting" the dot and noted that if you are doing that, then you are not using the sights correctly, but time and time again I have seen people with laser sights do exactly that.

What I have found most amusing and disturbing is to see people try to take advantage of not having to aim with the iron sights and shoot from the hip or around a corner (IDPA) and then seeing them flounder as they realize the dot is not where they intended for it to be pointing and so they start visually looking for the dot that also tends to jump around as they are looking for it. They almost always find it, but by then they have lost 2, 3, 4, or 5 seconds. So...FAIL.

The other problem is when that can't get the activation to be on or consistent given their grip and so they try some hip-rock and shoot stance expecting the dot to appear on the target, they look for it, don't see it, and start looking around before realizing that it isn't because they have aimed so poorly that the dot isn't anywhere near the target, it is that the light isn't even on because the grip on the grip isn't such to activate the light. First the 2-5 second dot search occurs and then the functional assessment on the gun occurs and more time is gone. Again...FAIL.

People directly or more likely indirectly think that lasers will replace their need for training and/or practice and I can't help but to think that ad campaigns and salespeople promoting lasers are partially to blame. The basic concept is that you put the dot on the target and pull the trigger and you will hit the target. I have seen this promoted in several places. What they never tell you in the glossy gun rag ads or in the YT videos is that while it may be fairly easily once your learn the skills and so long as you stay proficient, that you first must learn and stay proficient with laser skills and you already need to be proficient with your gun skills. They don't tell you that seeing your laser dot dance all around on your target may keep you from firing because you can't seem to keep your gun properly aimed. They don't tell you that if you are nervous or scared in a gun fight, your dot is NEVER going to look calm and settled like it does on the video and that a tiny tremor on your end can make it appear that you have a completely unstable platform. They don't tell you that you still must have proper gun handling and trigger skills - that if you have a bad trigger yank or you have an anticapatory jerk, all the laser is going to do is to show it to you a split second before your bullet impacts in the wrong location (which is part of the reason many folks think lasers are good training tools...to help show problems). Nope, they indicate that lasers make things look so much easier and so much more accurate. In other words, the advertised benefits come without the unspoken costs and shortcomings.

Imagine Bob Munden being a revolver salesman and telling you how easy it is to shoot revolvers very fast and accurately at 50 yards without going into explaining all the years of training and millions of rounds fired he has under his belt. You can do amazing things with revolvers (not me) if you know how and are proficient. You can do some amazing things with lasers too if you know how and are proficient. Problem is, most people aren't.
 
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I must admit, I have never fired a weapon with a laser. I have abstained because I do not want to depend on powered technology for accuracy. One day I may change my mind, as I did with Apple products!
 
Carry_24/7 wrote:
I have abstained because I do not want to depend on powered technology for accuracy.

As have I.

That said, I can see the benefit of using a laser as a secondary aiming device when sight alignment may be impossible, such as a fast-draw/hip-shooting type of SD scenario, but situations that involve this type of shooting usually occur at very close contact distances where precise aiming might not be very necessary.

I will stick with my tritium sights and sight alignment.
 
All three of my handguns with CT laser grips are set up such that the red dot sits on top of the front sight. Works for me at five - ten yards, which is what I practice and all I care about. Some have brought up the subject of parallax. That might come into play at twenty-five yards, but not at five to ten. I've always figured that if I were to shoot someone twenty-five yards away, I would be in a world of legal hurt.

Cordially, Jack
 
9mm: This somehow got into a good vs. bad of laser sight issue, but your opener was how to buy an inexpensive pair and get the 50 bucks off. First thing would be, get onto the Crimsom Trace site http://www.crimsontracelaser.com/?gclid=CKi50KjKrakCFQU6gwodQ0ASKg and put your email in their pot. I mean sign up for everything, their updates, weekly newsletters and everything electronic they are offering (you can always bail out at a later date). It won't be long at all before they send you a coupon to use in conjunction with a serial number from a laser grip that you purchase. Send the two numbers in and get your cash, that simple. I'm holding one now in my mail inbox as I plan on buying a pair for a Ruger Alaskan 2 1/2" (they were out of stock for the longest), they got them now, but now I have to wait for payday. And you are right, factory wants 350 and I've found them on line for 270 before the rebate so 220 final cost to me. Smithy.
 
I am of the opinion that you learn to shoot well without them first. I don't believe that they help someone new to shooting or to a particular pistol to shoot well. Imo, they are a crutch. Once you learn instinctive shooting and get good with your pistol, then I might consider a set of laser grips. If you ever get to the point that instinctive shooting feels natural, you will know what I mean. I have two pistols, my Colt Commander and my Sig P226 are in that category - I can pick them up, point naturally and then look at my sights and the picture is lined up nicely.

I disagree with the statement that they help a new shooter since half of good shooting, again imo, is muscle memory.

Learn to shoot well, then maybe ...
 
A must? Hmmm, seems like an awful lot of people have been shot with guns before lasers were ever invented. So, no, they're not a must. Are they desirable? That's a more difficult question.

I have one revolver with laser sights. I like it for dry firing as you can really tell what the front of the gun is doing when you pull the trigger. Here are three reasons I choose not to use lasers on my carry/defense handguns. These may not apply to other individuals:

1. I actually shoot better with my "iron" sights.

2. Low light situations have been covered. But what about bright lights? The best of lasers fade out pretty quickly. Sure, you can switch to the iron sights but do you want to take the time to mentally and physically make that switch in an emergency?

3. I carry more than one gun (not usually at the same time) and do not want to put lasers on each one. Expensive and, on some, impractical or not available. Again, I don't want to mentally adjust to two different sighting systems in an emergency.

As I said, these are pretty much factors which are individual to me. YMMV.
 
TFL, Home of Laser Hate

If you own a gun with tiny fixed sights that are difficult to see even in the best of lighting conditions, laser grips can mean the difference between a seldom-shot paperweight and something truly useful.

I too no longer purchase handguns for which no laser is made.

Step into the 21st century and don't look back.
Any instructor worried about you "giving away your position" needs to stop teaching Ninjutsu at the mall.
 
Mr. Whimsy, and others.... some of us have owned lasers, and shot them a fair amount. I can shoot well enough with a laser. I just shoot better with the regular sights.

Not preferring something doesn't mean one doesn't understand it, or can't use it.
 
Imo, they are a crutch.

I disagree, they are, like anything added to a firearm, a tool. I use Trijicon Night Sights on a couple of my semi-autos as well, sure they're much the same as stock iron sights, but with my eye sight at age 57, they enable me to see the sights much better.

As for running down the battery, or having to "switch" them off, the Crimson Trace sights I have on my XD-9 have a small button on the front of the grips that has to be depressed for the laser to come on. After using them for a while, I've found my firing rate is the same as if I'm using the stock iron sights, but I can get back on target quicker with the laser than with the sights.

Your mileage may vary, I'm quite satisfied with mine on the pistol I have them installed on. I'm also satisfied with the night sights on the 2 pistols I have them installed on.

My LCP has stock sights, I plan to send off the slide and barrel to a shop in SC for their after-market adaption with a Trijcon front post, and two dot sight installed on the rear.

Is a laser a must? Maybe not for all shooters, maybe the difference it takes for others to survive a self defense situation. Myself, I'll use anything that it takes to achieve the goal of surviving such a situation. Do police departments use them? I admit, not many of them, but you also have to consider armament for police departments isn't always dictated by what the cop on the street needs, but on budget constraints. Whoever comes in with the lowest price per unit is the main concern usually.
 
Imo, they are a crutch.
I disagree, they are, like anything added to a firearm, a tool.

And here you have a classic divergence on a given topic due to a different perspective on the same fact, yep both have come to a different conclusion. Interesting.

Lasers are a crutch, no doubt. They help shooters to hobble along better with their guns because they haven't mastered the other crutches sufficiently such as using the crutch sights or crutch sights of the barrel/frame. If you have to be able to see any part of your gun in order to put rounds on target, you are crutching to make up for inadequacies.

Lasers are a tool, no doubt. They help shooters to aim better like other vision/reference-based sighting such as using iron sights, indexing off of the barrel/frame of the gun, or other forms of point shooting that rely, in part, on being able to seeing the orientation of the gun, even if in periphery, to put rounds on target.

So depending on your view, any additional developments to the firearms after initial development as a hand held metal tube fired by fuse or touched off could be seen as crutches or as tools. Funny how that works.
 
So Double Naught:

Along the same lines you can say using a scope on a rifle is a "crutch"

or

Using a "mil do" redical on a scope is a "crutch"

or night sights are a "crutch"

By your standards anything could be a crutch,
 
Smaug and kriagKy...good points...I've shot handguns for almost 50 yrs now...competed for many years in NRA Bullseye...recently completed Front Sight's Defensive Handgun Course...and CT's grips showed me a thing or two. For defensive shooting I'll take all the "crutches" I can find...it's not a macho thing...it's about surviving the encounter...as Jordan said, "There are no 2nd place winners."

We put a pair of CT's on my wife's S&W 637 with the idea that they'd help for night use in the house etc. But actual shooting with them showed me some new things about double action revolvers and my trigger control that would be impossible to learn any other way. The comment, "learn to shoot and you won't need them" does not address the issue of night use where most iron sights are useless...my LEO friends have opined that virtually no amount of experience on the range will ensure hits in darkness..to get 'em you need light or a laser!

Let's face it; laser sights are an evolution in weapon sighting, much the same as adjustable rear sights were when they came out. Ask any returning GI about his night experience in the desert...my own son's time there and his observations on actual night combat made a believer of me...my time in SE Asia, 40 years ago, at night in slit trenches showed me, you need sights you can see, and NO MUZZLE FLASH!

If you can afford them, they're worth the money...Rodfac
 
I had a CT Laser Grip on a Bersa Thunder 380 and really liked it. It was incredibly bright, I'm not sure where all the comments come from about it washing out in bright light. I tested (using an unloaded gun of course) and shining it from inside my house, through double-paned insulated glass windows out onto a tree in the back yard, and onto a red brick wall farther away, the red dot was clearly visible in full sunlight and still a nice coherent small dot.

It had a front-of-grip momentary-press activation button and I never found any issue with being able to turn it on or off with just a slight change in pressure from my middle finger.

Unfortunately that gun, as well as the attached laser grip, was stolen in a burglary so I no longer have it. I replaced the gun but never got around to replacing the grips. I may use this opportunity to do that.

As far as it being a crutch - that's why I bought it. I'm using a crutch right now - reading glasses to see this computer screen. I can see distances pretty clearly but as I've aged I can't focus close up any more.

I do fine on the range using the iron sights and eyeglasses, but without them the front sight is just fuzzy blob and the rear sights are essentially useless. However, that laser dot is in crystal clear focus.

Just like some people don't want to depend on a laser for accurate shooting, I don't want to have to depend on scrambling for a pair of reading glasses (nightstand or shirt pocket) to use the sights, and then having to peer over the top of them to see the target.

Another factor is the layout of my house. As I've done a few practice drills of self defense scenarios in the house, I've found that most of the defensive positions near the bedroom area that provide any sort of cover also require me to shoot one-handed with my left hand while hiding behind a corner, and using my left eye to sight. I'll be happy to have the crutch in that situation.

Certainly not a must have, but I thought they worked very well and were worth the money for me.
 
JC57, my opinion on bright light was formed at an outdoor range on a sunny, early afternoon. Red dot on the orange-red bull of the target at 12 yards was not so easy to pick up.

I have a separate laser, that my dogs like to chase around the house. I've noticed that it gets refracted or diffused quite badly on some household surfaces, to where it gets so dim it almost disappears. Granted, BG's don't usually wear glass or plexi-glass, but they might take cover behind some.

A rippled or badly wrinkled fabric can also make the dot much less visible. (It has to reflect off what it hits, for us to see the dot; some surfaces scatter reflections.)

So, is it a potentially good tool? Sure. Allows round-the-corner shots, hip shots, etc; allows one to focus on the background more, while keeping the dot on the target; useful to people with poor vision, too.

But it has limitations. For those of us who have practiced a lot with our stock weapons, and who have good eyesight, lasers may not be quite as useful.
 
I want to clarify my own take on lasers. I have plenty of duty caliber handguns. I only have one CTC grip, on my carry gun, a Springer Champion 1911.

It is not a must. It is a convenience, the same reason said weapon has night sights mounted. I train the most with this pistol and use the laser as it was intended to be used, not as a crutch, but as a selectively applied visual advantage.

As far as being "battery dependent," I finally am replacing the original batteries after eight years' worth of standby duty and low light practice. YMMV, but my LG-301 set has two batteries aboard when it only needed the power of one working one to fire the laser. If you don't burn up the batteries goofing off with the pets or trying to find it in broad daylight on screen doors and stuff like that, they can go for a long, long time before noticeably weakening.

All in all, I like the CTC product, but my buying advice is ultimately this: If you want one get one, but know the piece (and your own shooting abilities with it), backwards and forwards before mounting it so that you'll know exactly whether the laser is aiding you or encouraging some newly induced bad habits, i.e., the "crutch effect."

The laser alone will not make you a better shooter. Used as intended it can provide a great measure of tactical advantage in difficult positional, barrier, and lighting conditions, and for those situations, you might rather be the shooter with a laser than the one without.
 
Boats, to clarify, I strongly recommend AGAINST using a gun-mounted laser as a pet toy. The laser I use for chase games with them is a pen type, but similar in intensity to a CT.

As far as batteries go, I never had a problem with the CT on my previous SP101 or 442. Of course, I turned off the switch when they were not in use.

OTOH, the CT LaserGuard, on my PM9, does not have an on-off switch, just the button under the trigger guard. There is no standby setting. That one goes through batteries in a matter of months, not years.
 
MLeake said:
Boats, to clarify, I strongly recommend AGAINST using a gun-mounted laser as a pet toy.

Amusing mental image there... "Look at this stupid cat chasing the laser! HaHaHa..." BANG!... "Oh crap..."
 
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