Are laser grips a must? crimson sale,
- Thread starter 9mm
- Start date
Jack, how true that is! I watched two guys shooting next to me one day using the same gun. First guy, that dot is bouncing all over the place! Damn, I was getting dizzy........His buddy, well, that dot barely moved at all, and it followed the same path each time he pulled the trigger!
I bought a used Berreta 96 with a set of CT's on it. I have not had a chance to shoot that gun yet so I have no opinion on whether I will like them or not. I did like the price of the gun though, the CT's were a freebie for me!
I bought a used Berreta 96 with a set of CT's on it. I have not had a chance to shoot that gun yet so I have no opinion on whether I will like them or not. I did like the price of the gun though, the CT's were a freebie for me!
If you're "hunting the dot" while using a laser you're doing it wrong.
On a CTC Lasergrip, the laser itself is fully adjustable for windage and elevation via set screws. These are in the product so that it may be "zeroed" to "co-witness" with your your front sight, at a selected POA/POI at a known distance with your SD load.
You still use your front sight, the laser "confirms" in low light situations that you are actually shooting where you think you are aiming.
On a CTC Lasergrip, the laser itself is fully adjustable for windage and elevation via set screws. These are in the product so that it may be "zeroed" to "co-witness" with your your front sight, at a selected POA/POI at a known distance with your SD load.
You still use your front sight, the laser "confirms" in low light situations that you are actually shooting where you think you are aiming.
I didn't have one on my revolver when I was in LE, but then again, I don't think they had them back then, if they did, I didn't know about it.
But if I was to go back in time, You bet your bippy I'd have one.
Those against lasers seem to think they automatically eliminate the pistol/revolvers case. I do about 95% of my practice using the iron sights, I do dry fire constantly with the laser and every now and then I got out in low light situations and play with the laser. When you can't see the sights, they are dern handy.
Another thing, if they are on the pistol/revolver, it doesn't mean they are on all the time, mine doesn't come on until a squeeze a certain way. They are a handy tool, a supplement to your pistol/revolvers sights, not a replacement.
I have them on my SR9C and my LCP. I have the Crimson trace ones. When I place my hand on the grip it activates. My eyes are not as good as they once used to be. At 3-15 yards using them they make a nice palm sized group. I set my laser sight where the dot appears just over the front sight kind of co witnessing with the iron sights.However, laser sights are not a magical substitute for a lack of fundamental shooting skills. If you don't have good technique you can still miss the target.
Mrgunsngear
New member
The point about the dot getting lost in the BGs clothing or bright light is valid. But, with a laser you still have your sights. I turn my laser off about 50% of the time when practicing for that very reason. I used to think lasers were a crutch for people who didn't master or practice the fundamentals and I still think they may be for some but I don't believe they are for me. I would never train a new shooter using a laser. They need to practice the fundamentals, then practice some more.
To double tap what was said about infantry and lasers---spot on. I'm a scout and everyone I know uses a laser (both IR and visible) for 50m and in, both on our rifles and M9s. It's absolutely an advantage on the battlefield and I don't know a single person that doesn't employ them.
IMO, most of the arguments against using a laser are solved by using your sights should you have an issue. But, to each his own...
To double tap what was said about infantry and lasers---spot on. I'm a scout and everyone I know uses a laser (both IR and visible) for 50m and in, both on our rifles and M9s. It's absolutely an advantage on the battlefield and I don't know a single person that doesn't employ them.
IMO, most of the arguments against using a laser are solved by using your sights should you have an issue. But, to each his own...
SwampYankee
New member
1. You're out at a club drinking at night with your CCW? Not smart.
2. I don't go out at night in places that I consider high risk areas.
3. I don't go out during the day in places I consider high risk areas.
4. At SD range, you don't need a laser. If you do need a laser, your target is too far away and your shot is probably not justifiable.
I'm a little surprised at all the folks arguing against lasers who are not thinking practically.
A laser can give you an edge that can mean the difference between life and death. It lets one keep one's eye on one's target, rather than using sights or not using sights and missing.
It can be intimidating too, in the right situation.
It can be used in weak positions, and it doesn't require one to have one's head behind the gun.
It is not always about long range; sometimes it is about fast target acquisition at short range.
Please, guys: don't knock it until you've opened your mind and given it a serious try.
A lot of the scenarios pointed out on Crimson Trace's site are quite realistic: getting knocked down and having to shoot when one is laying on one's back, for instance. (Chapter 5 video from this page)
Hitting moving targets more easily. (Chapter 4 video, from the link above) Shooting around barriers and only peeking one's head out enough to see, but not enough to make a big fat target. Shooting under a car (from cover) accurately. There are many other scenarios.
The nay-sayers should put off their next gun purchase and try a CTC grip on their home defense gun. I bet you'll change your tune, if you go into it with an open mind. I know I did.
My only regret is that I cannot afford to put them on all my guns.
A laser can give you an edge that can mean the difference between life and death. It lets one keep one's eye on one's target, rather than using sights or not using sights and missing.
It can be intimidating too, in the right situation.
It can be used in weak positions, and it doesn't require one to have one's head behind the gun.
It is not always about long range; sometimes it is about fast target acquisition at short range.
Please, guys: don't knock it until you've opened your mind and given it a serious try.
A lot of the scenarios pointed out on Crimson Trace's site are quite realistic: getting knocked down and having to shoot when one is laying on one's back, for instance. (Chapter 5 video from this page)
Hitting moving targets more easily. (Chapter 4 video, from the link above) Shooting around barriers and only peeking one's head out enough to see, but not enough to make a big fat target. Shooting under a car (from cover) accurately. There are many other scenarios.
The nay-sayers should put off their next gun purchase and try a CTC grip on their home defense gun. I bet you'll change your tune, if you go into it with an open mind. I know I did.
My only regret is that I cannot afford to put them on all my guns.
Smaug and others,
I recognize the validity of the laser for shooting around a corner. I'm not so sure it provides that much advantage on a moving target, but suspect that has a lot to do with how one practices.
But again, I've owned guns with lasers, and still have a gun with a laser, but I find that I generally shoot better without the laser.
Does that make lasers bad? No.
Does that mean I don't think lasers are necessary? Yes, pretty much. Having used both, I am no more accurate with a laser, and I'm faster without it.
I'd probably have to train a lot with a laser, just to bring my laser speed up to my regular sights speed, and I don't really see much reason to do so.
I recognize the validity of the laser for shooting around a corner. I'm not so sure it provides that much advantage on a moving target, but suspect that has a lot to do with how one practices.
But again, I've owned guns with lasers, and still have a gun with a laser, but I find that I generally shoot better without the laser.
Does that make lasers bad? No.
Does that mean I don't think lasers are necessary? Yes, pretty much. Having used both, I am no more accurate with a laser, and I'm faster without it.
I'd probably have to train a lot with a laser, just to bring my laser speed up to my regular sights speed, and I don't really see much reason to do so.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Interesting. I'm not sure I understand how a laser could be slower than sights. I'm not saying it isn't, but I don't understand it. Slower than pure point shooting, I get that. Slower than sights is hard to imagine.
PK, for one thing, at normal defensive distances, when going for speed, it's more of a flash picture on the sights.
For another thing, not sure if you've noticed how much more distracting the oscillation of the laser dot is, but watch at a range some time when people are using lasers. Most get distracted by the motion, and try to lock it down to minimal before they pull the trigger.
It's kind of like using too high a magnification on a scope.
I do like a laser on a snubbie at longer ranges, but don't figure on shooting a snubbie at 25yd targets all that often.
For another thing, not sure if you've noticed how much more distracting the oscillation of the laser dot is, but watch at a range some time when people are using lasers. Most get distracted by the motion, and try to lock it down to minimal before they pull the trigger.
It's kind of like using too high a magnification on a scope.
I do like a laser on a snubbie at longer ranges, but don't figure on shooting a snubbie at 25yd targets all that often.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Mm. Much like archery I suppose.... People concentrate so much on the little dot that they forget to aim. People think the dot is aiming, but it's only calibration. Your eyes aim.
PK, the other issue, for those of us who have practiced a lot with regular sights, is that when the gun is in a position where sights can (even for flash purposes) be seen, the dot is normally hidden by the gun itself.
The dot can be handy for hip shooting, but I see hip shooting as more of a contact thing anyway.
The dot can be handy for hip shooting, but I see hip shooting as more of a contact thing anyway.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
MLeake said:
Interesting. Having never used a laser, I would have thought they would be set up so the dot would essentially appear to be sitting on top of the sight picture. Almost like if you used the sights you'd be aiming at the laser dot.
I guess I'll find out soon enough... Mine is due for delivery Monday or Tuesday.
Poodleshooter
New member
On my snub,when sighted in, the dot is essentially hidden by the front sight post. So during normal aiming with those tiny snubby sights, I generally don't see it.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Poodleshooter said:
Ok, I'm trying to get a handle on this... doesn't this imply that either your sights or your laser are not correct?
If sights are "6 o'clock" hold and the laser is set to "Point of Impact" should not the laser dot appear to be sitting on top of your sight picture, at least at whatever distance you're sighted in for?
PK, don't forget parallax.
It's not so bad on my PM9, horizontally, but if I try to align the dot so it's sitting above my sights, well... the LaserGuard attaches to the trigger guard of the pistol, so it's on vertical centerline. However, it's below the barrel. Sights are above the barrel. If I bring the dot up so it sits just over the sights at, say, 7 yards, then inside 7 yards it's going to be invisible (below the sights and/or gun) and past 7 yards it will get progressively higher than POI.
I could set the dot to be above the sights at 3 yards, but then how high will it be relative to POI at 15 yards? You get the idea.
For the grip type laser, which I've had on an SP101 and a 442, those sit below and to the right of the barrel, so now there's horizontal and vertical parallax. I used to set those to be on POI at 15 yards, so that the round would be reasonably close to POI from point-blank to 25 yards.
But again, the gun usually had to be kept below the sightline in order for the dot to be visible.
One can train to use both the laser and the sights, but they generally can't be used at the same time. (Or, one could argue they both could, and the shooter should use whichever he sees first - but for me, that's almost always the sights.)
It's not so bad on my PM9, horizontally, but if I try to align the dot so it's sitting above my sights, well... the LaserGuard attaches to the trigger guard of the pistol, so it's on vertical centerline. However, it's below the barrel. Sights are above the barrel. If I bring the dot up so it sits just over the sights at, say, 7 yards, then inside 7 yards it's going to be invisible (below the sights and/or gun) and past 7 yards it will get progressively higher than POI.
I could set the dot to be above the sights at 3 yards, but then how high will it be relative to POI at 15 yards? You get the idea.
For the grip type laser, which I've had on an SP101 and a 442, those sit below and to the right of the barrel, so now there's horizontal and vertical parallax. I used to set those to be on POI at 15 yards, so that the round would be reasonably close to POI from point-blank to 25 yards.
But again, the gun usually had to be kept below the sightline in order for the dot to be visible.
One can train to use both the laser and the sights, but they generally can't be used at the same time. (Or, one could argue they both could, and the shooter should use whichever he sees first - but for me, that's almost always the sights.)
Mike Irwin
Staff
A must? Not on my guns they're not.