Anyone know suarez international?

I don't know much about, and have no comment on, Gabe Suarez. OTOH, I have just spent the last four days in the classroom and on the range with Mas (and, incidentally, Marty Hayes and Kathy Jackson).

I will say from firsthand experience that Mas teaches a lot of good material in the classroom; teaches good technique on the range; can shoot quite well, even if he now refers to himself as a geezer; and is the type of guy you want to have a beer and shoot the bull with afterward.

He also tells a lot of what he calls "bad jokes." Most of them aren't actually bad, and quite a lot of them are directed at himself. For instance, he'll tell you he isn't arrogant, as he's much too big a person for that.

I guess some people might take that as him thinking too highly of himself. I take it (as do the others in the class) as Mas just kidding around, which he does quite a lot - during breaks.

Mas also encourages questions, and entertains differing opinions.

For that matter, he also recommends that students in the class go check out other instructors who interest them, and attend other schools and classes. Not once did I hear Mas say that his was the only way to do things - though he did offer lucid and germane arguments in support of why he teaches what he does.

In short, I find him to be an excellent teacher, and a pretty good guy.

Marty and Kathy aren't exactly shabby, either.

I have watched some relatively inexperienced shooters make impressive leaps this week under their joint tutelage. I have also watched (and experienced) some pretty experienced (I am even cocky enough to say "good" - and to include myself in that group) shooters pick up some new techniques, and refine some old ones.

So, FWIW, I highly recommend Mas, and Marty, and Kathy, as instructors, and as people to hang out with after class.
 
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not tap dancing at all

I do question his ethics. If I come on a forum with a topic that I choose, I am not surprised to see links to companies that offer services that might interest me. It is my CHOICE to follow said links. If I get spammed by a "warrior" (who makes claims he wont defend I might add) on my email unsolicited, it ticks me off. Mr. Lucibella doesn't hijack my email claiming his magazine is the Bible. So yes, it is a right to advertise your product, just don't do it my email in a self aggrandizing way. I don't have any allegiances to any trainer or method either. But a person I have no respect for won't get my business, no matter what they are selling. As is my right.
 
seed,

You started the accusations of lying; Mas didn't.

If you call a man a liar and he asks you to back up your claims so that he can defend himself from the accusation you made -- and then you suddenly become "too busy" to say anything else except to repeat the accusation without providing so much as a link! ... well, it just might be that the man has a point when he says you weren't being honest when you called him a liar.

pax
 
Pax is 100% right

If you are going to post something about anybody you are not willing to back up with the links and "all" the information not just a "part" of it then don't say it. Some people on the Internet are willing to take info at face value without checking it out and spread it.

If a person wasn't to busy to post something bad about somebody then he should make the time to answer the question as soon as possible.
 
I do question his ethics. If I come on a forum with a topic that I choose, I am not surprised to see links to companies that offer services that might interest me. It is my CHOICE to follow said links. If I get spammed by a "warrior" (who makes claims he wont defend I might add) on my email unsolicited, it ticks me off. Mr. Lucibella doesn't hijack my email claiming his magazine is the Bible. So yes, it is a right to advertise your product, just don't do it my email in a self aggrandizing way. I don't have any allegiances to any trainer or method either. But a person I have no respect for won't get my business, no matter what they are selling. As is my right.
Click to expand...

I receive e-mail from Mr. Lucibella's company because I chose to do so. Is it possible you checked a block somewhere asking to be notified of any information via e-mail?

Have you tried unsubscribing to his email? you might want to see if his e-mail has that option.

A person has no responsibilty to defend themselves against accusations on the Internet. It is up to the person bringing accusations to make sure that they are correct and have the sources to back it up. This is who should bear the burden and not the accused. In court it is the prosecutions responsibility to prove the accusations. It should work that way on Internet forums too.

I think it would be a lot better on forums when somebody posts something about somebody and does not provide the sources to back it up if all posts of that ilk were simply deleted.
 
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I have blocked him for sending his "message" already. But because it was sent to me in the past doesn't mean i forget. He did something TO ME that I frown upon. Can I prove that he sent it? No. As with all junk, I trash it. I do not agree to have ads or services sent to my email. And if a person makes claims in a public forum,you are right, they should back up those claims. Or be willing to discuss it like adults. Not comment and hide. That goes for ANYBODY. This isn't court. We are free to speak our mind and disagree with others. But you OWN what comes out of your mouth or your fingertips. If you can't or won't, then we are free to draw whatever conclusions we desire.
 
With regard to some of the claims made by Seed....

If Mas were to cite non-existing case law, it would be pretty strange, since the very first thing he discussed with us in class was how to use the legal libraries at county courthouses; he also frequently tells the class to look things up for themselves, so they can go into greater detail if they so choose. Seems to me that would be a very bad method for somebody who cites non-existent cases, but maybe Mas isn't that bright (I hope you all have your sarcasm detectors on - Mas is actually very sharp)... but I suspect Seed is talking out a non-standard orifice.

With regard to inputs from government agencies, I will say that one of the guest speakers at our current class was the local (to the facility) county chief coroner, who went over investigative procedure with us. We also had a couple of area attorneys make presentations.

Again, this seems to go against common sense, for an instructor who would regularly make false claims.... but you are all big boys and girls, so I'll let you decide who is the more credible, between Mas and Seed.

M
 
I've been out of the net for a couple days (went on a Patriot Guard Ride for a Slang Seal in Kansas), and I'm trying to catch up on this and other forms.

Some seem to get upset of what may be hints regarding my comments about Ethics. No one seems to want to go to PM and want me to post here. so here goes.

I was a LE for 20 years. Maybe not the best cop in the world but I was an honest one. Nothing detest me more then a crooked cop. Anyone who steals from an employee is low, but for a LE officer to steal by fraud or any other method, from the department who pays him is the lowest.

Working at another job while drawing workman's comp from an employer is theft any way you look at it. It was a felony, California tries everything possible to plea deal to keep down court cost. The man plead to a misdemeanor to keep from possible conviction of a felony.

Regardless, a cop stole from his department (employers have to pay for workman's comp insurance).

You ride for the brand.

Yes I disagree with some of his opinions on training and equipment, but that is not my main concern.

In LE, Ethics is everything.

I would have rather addressed this in PM and not in open form, but you (some of you) asked.
 
seed,

It's been four days.

You have two choices:

1) Post the links.

2) Apologize directly to Massad Ayoob for your unwarranted attacks on his character and professionalism.

The clock is ticking...

pax
 
In LE, Ethics is everything.
Click to expand...

That says it all as far as I'm concerned.

I may not agree with all of the policies my employer has put in place, but as long as I take their pay I will do my best to do my job following those policies. Worker's Comp is a policy, just like take-home cars, uniforms, and use of force.

Biker
 
Well, I was going to let it go, but Pax insisted that I don't. Here are some cursory links to look over (I included the links in text in case I screwed up inserting in the links...edited to add that I mistakenly inserted the links twice...see note at the bottom). Be sure to click on the links these links contain as I may have not listed them below:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=65021&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=89289&highlight=ayoobian
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=48587&highlight=ayoobian
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155031&highlight=ayoobian
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166597&highlight=ayoobian

Thread on Calguns.net that was linked by Mr. Ayoob (be sure to go to the final page with his post and the admin's response at the bottom):

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=343110&page=8

And finally, these three:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs8.htm

Mr. Ayoob's response:

http://www.thegunzone.com/ayoob/ayoob-dodson.html

Mr. Dodson's rebuttal:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/03/0604-03a.htm

To be clear, I don't hate the man...I don't know him. He may be the nicest guy on Earth. This is merely about his writings and his credibility which can dangerously affect the decision making process of what could wind up being the most important decision of one's lifetime. You would have to be a fool to take any one person's word for anything so critical. So I don't. And over the years, I have come across too many issues which refute Mr. Ayoob as someone whose advice should be taken as gospel...in fact, it often appears that he is most concerned with maintaining his aura of almost singular authority in an arena that the vast majority of working people have just about zero knowledge -- that's because he has made a living off of his reputation and feels a strong urge at all times to protect its stature.

So in closing, if you don't want to believe anything I say, then don't. If you think I am full of nonsense, then so be it. If you wish to put me on one of those silly "ignore" lists, then knock yourself out. My careometer is reading zero on the hypothetical feces-generosity scale. I don't get paid for any of this. I just finished my (weekly) hellatious work week with an added headache of not one, but two pipe leaks, a possible mold abatement issue and undoubted fun with the home owner's association over who is responsible for what. Do you care? No. Do I expect you to? No. Would it make any difference if you did? No. Kinda like this thread. So if I take four days or 100 days to reply (if I reply at all), then that's just the way it is. Life (real life) comes first. Mr. Ayoob will survive no matter what. And good for him.


Note: I just edited to acknowledge that it appears that my links are successfully inserted...twice. I'm not going to bother undoing it. I'm sorry about that, but I'm afraid I'm going to screw it all up if I try.
 
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Funny how the emperor has no clothes but the clones blather on - dude is far from perfect and I have seen everything you posted and it still will not be enough. Thanks for the useful links. BTW - I like Gabe and like what he is doing.
 
Seed, are you also Stage 2?

I read through your links; none of them offered anything like the evidence you claim. They were just more forum arguments over rules of evidence, with a lot of sound and fury that signified nothing.

The arguments took things Mas had advised, and then exaggerated them in order to set up straw man arguments. That is the recurring theme of your links.

But I really have to wonder if you and Stage 2 are the same person.
 
jmortimer, the funny thing is that in everything he posted, the known attorneys (such as Fiddletown) are on Mas' side... on minor things such as rules of evidence; admissibility of defense evidence; jury bias...

But who cares what lawyers think about how things can be used (or not) in court, right?
 
MLeake said:
...the funny thing is that in everything he posted, the known attorneys (such as Fiddletown) are on Mas' side... on minor things such as rules of evidence; admissibility of defense evidence; jury bias...
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In May of 2010, I was in Sierra Vista, Arizona helping Mas with a MAG-40 class he was doing there. (No, I wasn't paid and in fact paid all my own expenses.)

That MAG40 class included a lawyer who is an Army prosecutor and a retired federal judge. I spoke with them at length. They both found Mr. Ayoob's understanding of the law and legal procedure to be sound.
 
seed said:
Well, I was going to let it go, but Pax insisted that I don't. Here are some cursory links to look over...
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[1] Hardly evidence of anything. Simply the normal forum wrangling.

[2] Also, those links are pretty much ancient history (2004). Let's look at some more recent discussions of similar topics:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=452510

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423771

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=391656

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=394682

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397127

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=372759

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=366434

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=388901

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/....php?p=3586536

[3] People continue to take Massad Ayoob's classes. I personally know that his students have included active LEOs, a military prosecutor, a retired judge, retired LEOs who have been in gunfights and serving military officers with combat experience. I also personally know that these people said that they found his information and classes to be valuable.

He has his detractors, as does everybody.
 
It's funny how some read links and see them differently. What I saw was information about reasons to question Mr. Ayoob's advice and direction. The cases cited or not cited by Mr. Ayoob and or others all have one thing in common: not once has a case been decided on the basis of ammo choice. In the days before the internet, no one had easy access to information or the time to go get it by other means. These links (the first ones) were threads started and or posted in by forum members who took the time to do the research and they did a great job.

The Calguns link was included to let others see how that went down with the veiled threat as the admin saw it (and so did I). Mr. Ayoob was kind enough to also link it, with his own opposing point of view as to his original intent. You can decide for yourself.

The Dodson links were particularly fascinating in my humble opinion as Ayoob and Dodson cut through the noise to expose/attack, counter-attack, and then rebut. It also showed some examples of the alleged falsehoods of Mr. Ayoob's writings. But as someone recently alerted me: Ayoob's fans won't absorb the information and or they will peer at it with an immediate intent to deny and or defend Mr. Ayoob, no matter what. He was correct. That actually speaks to why so many have just stopped caring/trying to convince anyone about anything negative they may have to say about Mr. Ayoob's writings. It just isn't worth the trouble.

So in the end, as I said before: if you don't agree with my opinion, then don't. If you believe that Mr. Ayoob is the greatest and I am some sort of...I don't know -- hater critic, then go on thinking that. I am not writing to you. I am writing to those who haven't made up their mind yet. I am telling them, as others before me here and elsewhere have told me, to go into the world of Ayoob with a critical eye...and here are some reasons why...reasons they may not have even imagined to exist in a sea of praise by famous gun personality admirers, akin to 12-year old girls at a Justin Bieber concert (thanks for the reference, friend...you know who you are). At least the Bieber fans won't have made an important, potentially life-altering decision based on something he advised.
 
Look, this isn't even supposed to be about Ayoob. This has just gotten ridiculous. Anyway I will step in here with my one interaction with Mr. Ayoob.

On another forum we were having a discussion about trusting experts. I gave the advice to verify for yourself. I then made an example out of how Ayoob had made a mistake once.

I was piled on to stop atacking Ayoob and so on and so forth. So, I wrote Ayoob a PM and explained what was going on. He showed up adressed the issue and said he understood it wasn't an attack. He was respectful, polite, and helped difuse the situation his supporters were creating.

I respect Ayoob. There are several other trainers and schools that have proven through their self promotion, fraud, and attitude that they are less than reputable. Ayoob may be wrong from time to time, but I'll take a fallable human I can respect over a fake god any day.

Edit To Add:
In my opinion Ayoob, Dodson and many others all have something to offer in certain areas. Each person needs to find the area that a given "expert" is actually an expert in. That is the area where you take advice from that person. Other things should be taken with a grain of salt and mulled over.

Take what is relevent and what you can use. Create your own library of knowledge that serves you. No one source has every answer.
 
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seed said:
...These links (the first ones) were threads started and or posted in by forum members who took the time to do the research and they did a great job....
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A great job? Not really. Just the usual complaints and missing the point we tend to see when these topics come up. This isn't the thread to get into that, but many of the usual issues have been addressed by a number of members here, including several of the other lawyers, in the various threads I've linked to.

seed said:
...I am not writing to you. I am writing to those who haven't made up their mind yet. I am telling them, as others before me here and elsewhere have told me, to go into the world of Ayoob with a critical eye...and here are some reasons why...reasons they may not have even imagined to exist in a sea of praise by famous gun personality admirers, ...
Click to expand...
And so you would substitute whose judgment? Yours? What are your qualifications? Shouldn't we also be looking at your criticism, and the various criticisms of others, with a critical eye? Criticism isn't necessarily valid just because it's criticism.

Yes, by all means, look at what Massad Ayoob says critically. Look at what Jeff Cooper said critically. Look at any trainer, any teacher, any professional critically. And remember that anyone who puts himself in the public eye and publicly states his views will be criticized. And most often, the more people listen to someone in the public eye, the more others will criticize him.
 
I've trained with several Suarez instructors, but not Mr. Suarez himself. Roger Phillips and Randy Harris run good classes. Other instructors that I have met but not trained under are also qualified, solid men. The material is sound. 90% of firearms training is pretty well settled: to load, put the thing in the thing and pull the thing; to aim, line up the things; to fire, press the thing. The controversy comes up in the 10%, and in the personalities attached to one school or another.

Mr. Suarez has been fairly transparent about his conviction. I've read online his own account of the circumstances. As a criminal defense lawyer, I can comprehend how good people get involved in bad situations. Those of you who would never put a nickel into his organization because of it, I can understand your position. I feel like the man paid his debt to society and has a service that I want and am willing to buy. When/if I meet the man himself, I'll certainly evaluate whether I want to remain a customer of his. For the time being, I'll continue to keep Suarez International on my list of places that I train.
 
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