Anyone know suarez international?
- Thread starter Einar84
- Start date
orionengnr
New member
^^This.
If you are looking for opinions/recommendations, my first choice would be Gunsite. Second would likely be Ayoob.
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Gabe once wrote a very interesting article entitled "The Myth of the Courtroom Instructor Rescue". Unfortunately, since it is no longer legal to post entire articles here, I'm not sure where it can be found.
It should be required reading for all the Ayoobphiles around here.
Anyway, I suppose no one here has a past they might like to change or have asked forgiveness for and changed? No, I guess all here have always been perfect?
He's not ashamed to put his testimony where everyone can see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKgjDpcQMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaKgjDpcQMU
I respect the opinions of both Ayoob and Suarez. I guess that makes me both an Ayoob and Suarez a-phile. Either that, or a Neither-aphile---just more or less a student of both.
Isn't a myth that Bill Jordan's testimony and quick draw demonstration saved a Wyoming Sheriff from a murder charge. Lot's of instructors and firearms experts have given helpful, and sometimes critical, testimony in trials. Marty Hayes, Ayoob, Jerry Miculek, and many more.
I think that Ayoobs' dedication to helping citizens and cops he feels are wrongly accused should get him applause----not disparaging remarks. I'd want him testifying on my behalf.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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I was addressing the 'ethics' question more than anything. In the article.Gabe says:
The gist of the article is:
There is much more, but you get the idea. Evidently, none of this has been an issue in court. Doesn't matter if you purvey smut, are a drunk, or guilty of infidelity.
The gist of the article is:
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Maybe Ayoob can inject Suarez with epinephrine before he avoids the shots of fraud victims.
Lots of good instructors and authors out there...including this very forum. Don't let a couple of survivor dinosaurs from a by-gone era get in the way of their own extinction which is brought on by the power of information provided by the internet. To this day, I don't know how I ever could have known where to go to learn anything, if all I had to go by was those awful gun rags authored by these clowns.
I still have a few gun rags lying around from before when the internet really took off. The misinformation written by Suarez and his ilk (including Ayoob, Marshall, Sanow, etc) was jaw-dropping. They were literally pulling it out of their proverbial a****. It wasn't until the internet forums came about that they got called on some of their nonsense. Lots of threads here and elsewhere exist that illustrate this.
Now I expect to be attacked. I won't argue with you. But for those who are coming onto the scene and are too young or new to remember those pre and early internet days, I say "buyer beware" when it comes to who you believe or follow.
Lots of good instructors and authors out there...including this very forum. Don't let a couple of survivor dinosaurs from a by-gone era get in the way of their own extinction which is brought on by the power of information provided by the internet. To this day, I don't know how I ever could have known where to go to learn anything, if all I had to go by was those awful gun rags authored by these clowns.
I still have a few gun rags lying around from before when the internet really took off. The misinformation written by Suarez and his ilk (including Ayoob, Marshall, Sanow, etc) was jaw-dropping. They were literally pulling it out of their proverbial a****. It wasn't until the internet forums came about that they got called on some of their nonsense. Lots of threads here and elsewhere exist that illustrate this.
Now I expect to be attacked. I won't argue with you. But for those who are coming onto the scene and are too young or new to remember those pre and early internet days, I say "buyer beware" when it comes to who you believe or follow.
I'll add a few more things, then I'm done here.
I've broke bread with Gabe and I've seen the man's generosity. When we first started our church security team in 2006, Gabe trained our team leader at a substantially reduced tuition cost.
He has offered free training to several who have been in high-profile news-worthy incidents (although I really don't know how many, if any, accepted). He has had many students 'saved' by his training, but does not use this number to promote his training like a few others do.
Despite his core classes being filled regularly, he recently gave away $25,000 worth of free training.
The fact is, looking at posts in the threads on training on this forum, there is a far greater number of those who will never attend anyone's training than will spend extra on an elective class.
So, if no one on TFL ever takes an SI class, I really doubt it will hurt his bottom line.
I've broke bread with Gabe and I've seen the man's generosity. When we first started our church security team in 2006, Gabe trained our team leader at a substantially reduced tuition cost.
He has offered free training to several who have been in high-profile news-worthy incidents (although I really don't know how many, if any, accepted). He has had many students 'saved' by his training, but does not use this number to promote his training like a few others do.
Despite his core classes being filled regularly, he recently gave away $25,000 worth of free training.
The fact is, looking at posts in the threads on training on this forum, there is a far greater number of those who will never attend anyone's training than will spend extra on an elective class.
So, if no one on TFL ever takes an SI class, I really doubt it will hurt his bottom line.
A guy I talked to here at the local range has been to Gunsite and some others and says the training he recieved from a local class of The Suarez company was superior to some of the training he recieved at some of the other schools. He told me that they did some force on force training with air soft. Before he could put the defensive training from other places to use he had already been shot. The guy I talked to is a good guy and takes his training seriously. I respect his opinion.
If you really want to know ask folks who attend the actual courses because what I am saying is second hand information. I have already read all the internet stuff. As Paul Harvey says there is probably the rest of the story you will not find on the internet. We all put our pants on one leg at a time and nobody is perfect.
All that would matter to me is the quality of the product.
If you really want to know ask folks who attend the actual courses because what I am saying is second hand information. I have already read all the internet stuff. As Paul Harvey says there is probably the rest of the story you will not find on the internet. We all put our pants on one leg at a time and nobody is perfect.
All that would matter to me is the quality of the product.
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kraigwy;
If Gabe's ethics, reputation and training is so terrible, can you explain what I said earlier:
Like I said earlier, we all have a past. Some people overcome and rise above it. Some continue to try to drag them back down.
If Gabe's ethics, reputation and training is so terrible, can you explain what I said earlier:
Or just sour grapes because he corrected your spelling once? Do you hold a grudge against your grade school teachers for the same reason?
Like I said earlier, we all have a past. Some people overcome and rise above it. Some continue to try to drag them back down.
I think you would be in over your head.
Kraigwy, I think I know from where you are coming...If I am correct, we feel similarly. Seems to me, you are going beyond offering what might be a dissenting opinion (based on facts you recall) to instead point the thread readers to facts available elsewhere...facts which may not be so flattering to Suarez et al. You seem to be doing your best to take the high road, yet not blow sunshine up you know where. Unfortunately, I think some here apparently find that unacceptable. It's akin to going on a forum titled after a certain manufacturer and assessing flaws in that company and or their product. Boy do people get up in arms over that. Pretty sad, really.
With all that said, it's been a while since I gave two sentences of thoughts to Suarez, Ayoob, Marshall, Sanow, etc. If someone finds usefulness from their writings and or teachings, good for you. Understand though that these guys are not gods, as much as they think they are and or hope money paying fans will believe they are. In fact, as Kraigwy may or may not be alluding, if you do your research, you will find much to question about them. And I don't blame Kraigwy for not going further with it. Some of these guys are litigious or threaten to be...their livelihoods depend on protecting their auras of superiority and they will get very upset when cornered. It just isn't worth it for us peasants to deal with these super-egos. But some do find it worth it and when they do, it is often extremely informative and entertaining. Look up threads on them here and elsewhere and you will see what I mean. Double Naught Spy has Ayoob pinned down here and on THR. And there is someone who has done the same with Suarez over on Glocktalk. I can't remember his handle. And if you're really bored, look up a thread on Calguns.net where Ayoob implies lawsuits to be possible, if not probable due to posters' negative comments on him. The admin schools him on that point: that a forum cannot be sued for viewpoints of posters and negative comments about public personalities in general. But Ayoob's scare tactic was revealing in many ways.
So if you like Suarez and follow his teachings and methodology, that's your free choice. But since this is a public forum, expect that not all will be inclined to do the same...often with very sound reason. As Kraigwy implied: you owe it to yourself to really research him or anyone else before you follow his or her lead and then sing their praises.
With all that said, it's been a while since I gave two sentences of thoughts to Suarez, Ayoob, Marshall, Sanow, etc. If someone finds usefulness from their writings and or teachings, good for you. Understand though that these guys are not gods, as much as they think they are and or hope money paying fans will believe they are. In fact, as Kraigwy may or may not be alluding, if you do your research, you will find much to question about them. And I don't blame Kraigwy for not going further with it. Some of these guys are litigious or threaten to be...their livelihoods depend on protecting their auras of superiority and they will get very upset when cornered. It just isn't worth it for us peasants to deal with these super-egos. But some do find it worth it and when they do, it is often extremely informative and entertaining. Look up threads on them here and elsewhere and you will see what I mean. Double Naught Spy has Ayoob pinned down here and on THR. And there is someone who has done the same with Suarez over on Glocktalk. I can't remember his handle. And if you're really bored, look up a thread on Calguns.net where Ayoob implies lawsuits to be possible, if not probable due to posters' negative comments on him. The admin schools him on that point: that a forum cannot be sued for viewpoints of posters and negative comments about public personalities in general. But Ayoob's scare tactic was revealing in many ways.
So if you like Suarez and follow his teachings and methodology, that's your free choice. But since this is a public forum, expect that not all will be inclined to do the same...often with very sound reason. As Kraigwy implied: you owe it to yourself to really research him or anyone else before you follow his or her lead and then sing their praises.
Actually I made no accusations on anyone (excluding the spelling dispute). I did say "Ethics Matters" and I'll stand by that statement.
All I said was do research on any school/instructor you attend as to the quality of their courses, the resumes of the instructors and ETHICS of that instructor.
I'm not going to set here and quote court records about anyone, they are public records, if you want to research them, by all means do.
Look, I'm not in competition with anyone. I don't charge for any of my training, the Government, either Local, State or Federal, paid with tax dollars, for my training, I figure I'm simply giving back to the taxpayers for what they paid for.
The only exception is if the CMP requried a registration fee for their clinics I have to collet that, or if the student wished CMP to furnish ammo for the clinics I have to charge for that.
Other then that the training I provide is at the request of the agency. Example after the first of the (phyical) year I've been requested to provide Counter -Sniper training to the DHS/FPS. I'm not charging them but I do have to have them pay for my travel to the North West. (Portland).
If one wants to know my ideal of ETHICS in shooting or coaching/instructing, feel free to PM me and I'll explain MY opinions and where they came from.